The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

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The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Frank Wimberly-2
This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Frank Wimberly-2
Framework = Friam.  Is autocorrect onto something?

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sep 18, 2017 7:56 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Marcus G. Daniels
In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
 
This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Nick Thompson

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Russ Abbott
Nick wrote, "the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense"

What does that say about areas of the universe or periods of the universe that have no experiencing beings?  

Also, we synchronize our experiences so that we can communicate. (And we manage to do that reasonably well most of the time.) Is there any reason that's even possible if there is no real world outside each person's individual experience? (Or does this misrepresent what you have in mind?)

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:26 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Nick Thompson

Hi, Russ,

 

Long time!  You do know that I am a completely different man from the shallow, narrow-minded, orthodox behaviorist you used to argue with.  I have had heart surgery. 

 

In what you quote below, I am channeling Peirce.  I guess I wouldn’t be channeling him if I weren’t besotted with his views, but it’s also true that I couldn’t represent these views as clearly if they were precisely my own. 

 

You may draw whatever conclusions you may from the fact that over time we are drawn to common conclusions on many matters.  One such conclusion might be that there is a world out there that is banging us into shape.  But that is mere metaphysics;  all we can speak to is consistencies in our experience. 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 11:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick wrote, "the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense"

 

What does that say about areas of the universe or periods of the universe that have no experiencing beings?  

 

Also, we synchronize our experiences so that we can communicate. (And we manage to do that reasonably well most of the time.) Is there any reason that's even possible if there is no real world outside each person's individual experience? (Or does this misrepresent what you have in mind?)

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:26 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

Russ Abbott

Professor, Computer Science

California State University, Los Angeles


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Rich Murray-2
In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
Within "awareness" forever, "each" of "us" has to be a unique evolving facet of all of single creative hyperinfinity...


"As a matter of course, every soul citizen of Earth has a priority to quickly find and positively share evidence for healthy and safe food, drink, environment, and society."

within the fellowship of service,

Rich Murray,
MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology,
BS MIT 1964 history and physics,
1039 Emory Street, Imperial Beach, CA 91932
<a href="tel:(505)%20819-7388" value="+15058197388" target="_blank" style="line-height:1.22em;font-family:&quot;helvetica neue light&quot;,helveticaneue-light,&quot;helvetica neue&quot;,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;outline:none">505-819-7388 cell
<a href="tel:(619)%20623-3468" value="+16196233468" target="_blank" style="line-height:1.22em;font-family:&quot;helvetica neue light&quot;,helveticaneue-light,&quot;helvetica neue&quot;,helvetica,arial,sans-serif;outline:none">619-623-3468 home
rich.murray11 free Skype audio, video chat


"Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality" 1977 co-created by Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, born 1934,  and Steven Tainer, born 1947 -- 307 pages, concise and profound, highly original sharing of DzogChen -- other TSK teachers: Rich Murray 2014.11.28


9 eloquent brilliant reviews, including an account of how "Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality" was co-created by Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, born 1934, and a brilliant student, Steven Tainer, born 1947, at Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, via many years of dialogue, resulting in over 3,000 pages of transcripts, which were condensed into a 307 page text by December 1977 -- essentially a practical pure modern innovation from DzogChen, without any Buddhist trappings language and rituals.


http://www.odiyan.org/home.html  huge temple complex



12 organizations have $ 60 million assets --

"Tarthang Tulku now lives in permanent retreat at the 1,000-acre Odiyan Retreat Center near Gualala, about 12 miles from the Ratna Ling Retreat Center. 
He no longer communicates directly with the public."


[ aside, also, search "Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche" dzogchen

born 1938, now 76, still teaching at many world centers


3,000 acre Tsegyalgar West retreat center, Los Naranjos Baja Sur, in middle of south Baja California, about 50 miles north of the south tip -- I found it with Google Earth a few years ago ]



PROGRAMS IN TIME, SPACE, AND KNOWLEDGE (TSK)

The Time, Space, and Knowledge vision offers a path to the growth of knowledge, using practices specifically tailored to meet the needs of modern society.
The Institute has a long and close association with this liberating vision. Tarthang Tulku introduced his theory of Time, Space, and Knowledge in seminars held at the Institute in 1976–77, and more intensively, in a four-week program offered in the summer of 1977.
Within two months after the book, Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality,  was launched at an event at the Nyingma Institute in December, 1977, Tarthang Tulku had structured a TSK training program.

The Institute continued to present TSK seminars, workshops, and retreats throughout the 1980s.
After Love of Knowledge was published in 1987, the Institute offered two intensive ten-month programs between 1988 and 1990 devoted to its study. 
After the third TSK book, Knowledge of Time and Space, was published in 1990, the Institute offered another intensive that drew on all three of the TSK books.

From 1991 to 1995, the Institute offered Time, Space, and Knowledge as occasional weekend programs.
With the appearance of several new books in 1996, TSK gathered momentum and workshops, classes, and retreats in TSK continue to be taught on a regular basis. 
At present, a regular series of eight classes is offered, providing a solid introduction to the TSK vision and its practices.


13:13 video Alan Watts in black and white, Time: Part 1/2 ]



Jack Petrankar, Center for Creative Inquiry, started 2000


View a video introduction to the Time-Space-Knowledge vision

In Dynamics of Time and Space (1994), Tarthang Tulku helps clarify the Time-Space-Knowledge vision by laying out what it is not; that is, how it differs from other approaches to knowledge and being: 
TSK does not put forward claims regarding an absolute. In fact, it does not specify any form of substance or reality at all. From a TSK perspective, such definitions and claims inevitably generate conceptual structures. Once such structures are seen as anything more than tools for investigation, they limit knowledge, encouraging the formation of territories and positions that soon come to take priority over inquiry and insight.
TSK does not maintain the existence of a creator or creative force responsible for appearance. Identifying such an originating source is another instance of the tendency to assign labels and then make those labels the basis for limitation. For instance, readers of earlier books in this series might say that TSK attributes creation to a kind of magical operation. But the label ‘magic’ is just another way of limiting what arises. The temptation to rely on labels in deal­ing with TSK is strong, for ordinary understanding depends on labels, and we are usually interested only in what we can understand. But applying this approach to TSK or any other form of inquiry will only ensure that what is already familiar to us will perpetuate itself. There will be no opportunities for a new vision to make itself known.
TSK does not teach faith in any outside force, nor does it counsel devotion toward a higher being, such as God or the Buddha. It suggests that the knowledge we require is implicit in the self’s embodiment in space and time. The highest values are immediately available to us.
TSK does not pursue knowledge through beliefs founded on reasons. Instead, it proceeds through active inquiry, which is seen as embodying knowledge directly.
TSK does not investigate a subject located somewhere else, apart from the self. It looks directly to awareness.
TSK follows no model or doctrine. All knowledge can be a part of the vision.
TSK does not structure reality in terms of a hierarchy that proceeds from higher to lower or good to bad. Though the vision sometimes relies on language that makes such distinctions, the fundamental outlook is that knowledge understands all manifestations to be equally good. Although the process of inquiry will initially proceed step by step, moving from level to level, this sequence of unfolding does not reflect any inherent characteristic of appearance.
TSK does not offer any moral code. From a TSK perspective, being itself is perfect, exhibiting in all its facets the qualities of life and beauty. Since this is so, there is no need to seek perfection. The natural way of being is intrinsically sacred. When we exhibit this perfection in our own actions, vows and precepts are not required.
A Call for a New Vision of Therapy
by Hayward M. Fox, Ph.D.
One of the online courses in 2008 focused on the theme of light. Several participants, especially David Fillipone and Cecilia Schall, contributed a collection of light-related images. Enjoy!
The Way of the World
I took the idea somewhere, sometime, of the world
and me in it. When and from where? People said.

A way of speaking. Is it true? I know
so little, so little. It doesn’t seem to be true.I reject, at least, the implication, the two
idea, the conflict, the adversary, the will
of the world, my will. It isn’t that. I findnothing to force or fight or yield to. Much
of the time, I am nowhere, not in any world;

the world is nowhere; one could wish for a world.

Other times, something. An outside power. Or more,

my power. Something outside. I am more than I was.

From aimless idling, a clutch and a coupling. The world?
No asking. We are one or together. Call it the world.
— William Bronk




Descriptions of knowledge, level 3

An integrated, natural intelligence, unfragmented into reason, emotions, sensations, and intuition, is our greatest treasure, and our key to progress. (p. xxxiv, TSK)

We can develop a mode of 'seeing' which is not limited to a particular position or 'point of view' at all. (p. 27, TSK)

The Great Space dimension . . . provides the field of possibility for a kind of wide-angle lens (Great Knowledge) to be used, rather than the narrow-angle lens corresponding to the presence of a `knowing' and `doing' mind-self. (p. 67, TSK)

Great Knowledge truly removes all doubts and uncertainties. But it does not know `the truth'. It does not limit reality in that way. However, it is accurate and well-informed of what is going on. (pp. 201-2, TSK)

Knowledge is the goal or the fruit of this vision--a fruit that is itself beyond the concern for 'getting', approaching, or defining. (p. 211, TSK)

Great Knowledge is the immediate and knowing dimension of all reality and experience. It is the interplay between the openness of Space and the expressive creativity of Time. The very way in which Space and Time set up distances, differences, finite knowing capacities, and obstacles to knowledge leaves everything directly `known'. . . . Great Knowledge is the interpreter and the demonstrator of this Space and Time, but it is not limited to the events which we single out as knowing acts. Knowledge is not something which knows something; it is simply the presence of reality as `knowingness'. (pp. 211-12, TSK)

Ordinary knowledge has particular uses and values, but Great Knowledge is irrepressible--it cannot be tied down or limited in any way. There is no way we can truly fail to comprehend it. And like ordinary knowledge, Great Knowledge always leads to more Knowledge of its own kind. It inspires itself and can grow infinitely. (p. 215, TSK)

Knowingness has the quality of perfection. It is not simply a content of knowledge, for it involves no sense of a subject-object duality. It is perfect in itself because there is nothing more that needs to be known. This does not imply a self-absorption. It is perfect because it is all-inclusive. Nothing is left out or is an exception to it. (p. 219, TSK)

[Knowingness is] the capacity which is most central to human beings--the capacity to appreciate and enjoy the freshness and fullness of the play of Space and Time. (p. 220, TSK)

Great Knowledge is an inexhaustible treasure, one that cannot be spoiled or diminished in any way. Knowledge makes no mistakes. It is clear, free of confusions and misunderstandings. And it is available to everyone. It never grows or dies. No doubts can shake it; in a lived sense, it is the toughest material that exists. It is stalwart and reliable, ready for us to depend on and live by. At the same time, Knowledge is beyond all qualities--beyond all qualifications whatsoever. (p. 251, TSK)

This Knowledge is not oriented around us as the subject in a world of objects. It is with everything and reveals everything, without establishing an 'active subject' and a 'passive object'. The apparent object pole and the containing world horizon can all be 'knowing'. (p. 252, TSK)

Great Knowledge is ....Arguments and assertions cannot single it out or refer to it. It is not a meaning....This Knowledge is not the result of any demonstration or learning process. It is not limited or defined by the approach we take to it.It is unlearned or nonlearned learnedness . (p. 253, TSK)

[Knowledge is] an elusive (but penetrating) understanding, significance, or clarity....a balanced encompassing of the whole situation--not simply tied to your 'mind' or to the perceiver looking out over a perceived field. (p. 256, TSK)

We can see `knowingness' as primary. There are no `things' which convey it, there is just clarity itself ; 'knowingness' is inexhaustible and can be neither fragmented into little knowable packets nor foreshortened by known content of any sort. This does not mean that 'knowingness' is a vacant absorption, but rather that 'things' and encounters are themselves 'knowingness'. (p. 271, TSK)
There is no longer a 'looker', but instead, only a 'knowingness' which can see more broadly, from all sides and points of view at once. More precisely, the 'knowing' clarity does not radiate from a center , but is rather in everything, and everything is in it. There is neither an 'outside' nor an 'inside' in the ordinary sense, but rather a pervasive and intimate 'in' or 'within' as an open-ended knowingness. (p. 282, TSK)

Great Knowledge is not the view of an individual nor is it a perspective in the way that places emphasis on a subject-object dichotomy. Great Knowledge is `everything'--subject and object, all unified in a way that involves neither parts nor a `whole', nor even a unifying process. We can call this total communion the Body of Knowledge . (pp. 286-7, TSK)


Steven A. Tainer (born July 26, 1947) is a respected scholar and instructor of contemplative traditions.[1] 
He is a logician, philosopher, teacher and writer with an extensive background in philosophy of science, mathematical logic and Asian contemplative traditions.
One of the central themes of his work involves how different ways of knowing can be compared, contrasted, and/or integrated.
[ much impressive creative world service described ]



within the fellowship of service,

Rich Murray,
MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology,
BS MIT 1964 history and physics,
1039 Emory Street, Imperial Beach, CA 91932
<a href="tel:(505)%20819-7388" value="+15058197388" target="_blank">505-819-7388 cell
<a href="tel:(619)%20623-3468" value="+16196233468" target="_blank">619-623-3468 home
rich.murray11 free Skype audio, video chat


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On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick wrote, "the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense"

What does that say about areas of the universe or periods of the universe that have no experiencing beings?  

Also, we synchronize our experiences so that we can communicate. (And we manage to do that reasonably well most of the time.) Is there any reason that's even possible if there is no real world outside each person's individual experience? (Or does this misrepresent what you have in mind?)

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:26 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

gepr
In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
On 09/18/2017 06:56 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

We've discussed Hoffman's ideas before.  Lots of us played in that thread.  The FriAM archives are down, I think.  But here's the 1st post of the thread:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 12:05:05 -0800
From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]


  Natural selection and veridical perceptions
  Justin T. Mark, Brian B. Marion, Donald D. Hoffman
  http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/PerceptualEvolution.pdf

> For the weak type, X ⊄ W in general, and g is a homomorphism. Perception need not faithfully mirror any subset of reality, but relationships among perceptions reflect relationships among aspects of reality. Thus, weak critical realists can bias their perceptions based on utility, so long as this homomorphism is maintained.

To me, this evoked RRosen's "modeling relation", wherein he assumes the structure of inferential entailment must be similar to that of causal entailment (otherwise "there can be no science" -- Life Itself, pg. 58).

> For the interface (or desktop) strategy, in general X ⊄ W and g need not be a homomorphism.

This more closely resembles what I (contingently) believe to be true.  Hoffman goes on to define and play some games, the results of which (he thinks) show that the interface strategy, under evolution, can demonstrate how fake news might dominate.  But my interest lies more in the idea that one's internal structure does matter with respect to whether or not one's likely to _believe_ false statements.  And I'm arguing that flattening that internal structure in a kind of holographic principle simply doesn't work with this sort of machine.

An interesting potential contradiction in my own thought lies in:

1) I reject Rosen's assumption of the modeling relation (i.e. inference ≉ cause), and
2) I still think intra-individual circularity is necessary for biomimicry.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Merle Lefkoff-2
In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[hidden email]
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Russ Abbott
In reply to this post by gepr
An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog, we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter. 

So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them. 

So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:17 AM gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 09/18/2017 06:56 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

We've discussed Hoffman's ideas before.  Lots of us played in that thread.  The FriAM archives are down, I think.  But here's the 1st post of the thread:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 12:05:05 -0800
From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]


  Natural selection and veridical perceptions
  Justin T. Mark, Brian B. Marion, Donald D. Hoffman
  http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/PerceptualEvolution.pdf

> For the weak type, X ⊄ W in general, and g is a homomorphism. Perception need not faithfully mirror any subset of reality, but relationships among perceptions reflect relationships among aspects of reality. Thus, weak critical realists can bias their perceptions based on utility, so long as this homomorphism is maintained.

To me, this evoked RRosen's "modeling relation", wherein he assumes the structure of inferential entailment must be similar to that of causal entailment (otherwise "there can be no science" -- Life Itself, pg. 58).

> For the interface (or desktop) strategy, in general X ⊄ W and g need not be a homomorphism.

This more closely resembles what I (contingently) believe to be true.  Hoffman goes on to define and play some games, the results of which (he thinks) show that the interface strategy, under evolution, can demonstrate how fake news might dominate.  But my interest lies more in the idea that one's internal structure does matter with respect to whether or not one's likely to _believe_ false statements.  And I'm arguing that flattening that internal structure in a kind of holographic principle simply doesn't work with this sort of machine.

An interesting potential contradiction in my own thought lies in:

1) I reject Rosen's assumption of the modeling relation (i.e. inference ≉ cause), and
2) I still think intra-individual circularity is necessary for biomimicry.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Merle Lefkoff-2
Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[hidden email]
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Nick Thompson

M.

 

M

I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Merle Lefkoff-2

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M.

 

M

I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
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twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[hidden email]
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Russ Abbott
I'm disappointed. No one bothered to comment on or even notice my post on this subject.  Here it is again.

An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog, we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter. 

So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them. 

So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.


On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:49 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M.

 

M

I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

gepr
Perhaps you aren't reading the other thread or that the mailing list is misbehaving again and you didn't receive my response to your reified ideas argument?  My counter argument was along the same lines as Hoffman's idea that the decoupling from the environment (through interfaces) can lead to (and even select for) *false* ideas.  So, the (again, very slight) flaw in your argument is that it's what you're calling the raw signals that are paramount ... and probably what's being selected for, not the concepts or the ability to form concepts.

Just to restate a little more clearly, what's being selected for are fingers, toes, proprioception, nociception, etc.  That's what provides meaning, not the (perhaps entirely false) thoughts we mistakenly reify and pretend to talk about.

On 09/19/2017 08:58 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> I'm disappointed. No one bothered to comment on or even notice my post on this subject.  Here it is again.
>
> An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog, we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter.
>
> So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them.
>
> So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Roger Critchlow-2
In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
I find most of what Hoffman says sort of over generalized from over simplifications.  If we perceived things solely according to their fitness, then how do we perceive things which have multiple fitnesses, where different aspects of fitness vary to different schedules, where combinations of things have different fitnesses than the things met independently, where some things imitate other things, and so on?  Perhaps it works better if we perceive objects by physical properties and then infer their fitness from context?  

Then again, isn't fitness a bit of a magic wand to apply to these discussions?  Yes, the fitness of an organism is sufficient if the organism's descendants survive to reproductive age, but the steps in which this survival rate is traced through all the intermediate stages of causality to explain the exact mode of operation of all perceptual mechanisms, don't his hands get tired waving around like that?

Fitness in this context reminds me of utility in economic arguments.  What is it?  It's what is necessary to make these arguments work.

I did like the conscious agent algebra.  I was not impressed with the discussion of "quantum systems", but that was supplied by the interviewer's introduction.

-- rec --

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm disappointed. No one bothered to comment on or even notice my post on this subject.  Here it is again.

An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog, we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter. 

So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them. 

So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.


On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:49 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M.

 

M

I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



 

--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Marcus G. Daniels

Roger writes:

 

If we perceived things solely according to their fitness, then how do we perceive things which have multiple fitnesses, where different aspects of fitness vary to different schedules, where combinations of things have different fitnesses than the things met independently, where some things imitate other things, and so on.”

 

To select with regard to multiple fitnesses, it is necessary to have rank orderings for each and to retain the union of some fraction of the top performing ones.   That means more resources, having more special snowflakes and more kinds of special snowflakes.     But usually we just get frustrated and get some lunatic to create a giant extinction event and call it good.

 

Marcus

 


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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

 

 

Hi, Barry, Russ, et ceteri.

 

According to a Very Wise Scholar (see link), Natural selection is just a co-relation among identifiable traits of organisms such that:

 

 

Whether this is circular or not depends, of course, on what we mean by “better designed”.  If “better designed” means “having more offspring”, then natural selection reduces to an assertion that the offspring of organisms that have more offspring have more offspring”.  This is highly circular, but it is not tautological because it requires that fitness itself be heritable. 

 

I was confused on this point early in my career and had to be straightened out by a very good Philosopher of Science, who was not a physicist.

 

Nick  

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 1:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

I find most of what Hoffman says sort of over generalized from over simplifications.  If we perceived things solely according to their fitness, then how do we perceive things which have multiple fitnesses, where different aspects of fitness vary to different schedules, where combinations of things have different fitnesses than the things met independently, where some things imitate other things, and so on?  Perhaps it works better if we perceive objects by physical properties and then infer their fitness from context?  

 

Then again, isn't fitness a bit of a magic wand to apply to these discussions?  Yes, the fitness of an organism is sufficient if the organism's descendants survive to reproductive age, but the steps in which this survival rate is traced through all the intermediate stages of causality to explain the exact mode of operation of all perceptual mechanisms, don't his hands get tired waving around like that?

 

Fitness in this context reminds me of utility in economic arguments.  What is it?  It's what is necessary to make these arguments work.

 

I did like the conscious agent algebra.  I was not impressed with the discussion of "quantum systems", but that was supplied by the interviewer's introduction.

 

-- rec --

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm disappointed. No one bothered to comment on or even notice my post on this subject.  Here it is again.

 

An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog, we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter. 

 

So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them. 

 

So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.

 

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:49 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M.

 

M

I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence" modeling project.

 

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

M

 

In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?  Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of physics? 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably sane.

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918


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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding

Saint Paul University

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[hidden email]
mobile:  <a href="tel:(303)%20859-5609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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Russ Abbott

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California State University, Los Angeles


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Re: The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Steve Smith
In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

REC/MD/GR/RA/et alii -

Having worked on problems roughly described as multivariate optimization decision support, I'm thinking, a high dimensional Pareto Frontier with modified Dempster-Shaffer methods implementing Fuzzy Belief and Plausability measures.   It maps well onto consciousness as wave-function collapse (for Quantum Consciousness Wonks) or at least (for CS majors) late binding.   For English Majors, I refer you back to Douglas Adams who describes all of this in very good, imagistic prose.

- SASafrass

On 9/20/17 11:40 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Roger writes:

 

If we perceived things solely according to their fitness, then how do we perceive things which have multiple fitnesses, where different aspects of fitness vary to different schedules, where combinations of things have different fitnesses than the things met independently, where some things imitate other things, and so on.”

 

To select with regard to multiple fitnesses, it is necessary to have rank orderings for each and to retain the union of some fraction of the top performing ones.   That means more resources, having more special snowflakes and more kinds of special snowflakes.     But usually we just get frustrated and get some lunatic to create a giant extinction event and call it good.

 

Marcus

 



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