The AP kerfuffle

[glen ropella]

Steve Smith wrote at 07/16/2013 10:10 AM:
> Exhibit A, One Glen Ropella who can't (by his own declaration) seem to get
> through Social Ettiquete 101 in the OldSkool of hard knocking around.   What
> is that about?   It is certainly not (or not obvious to me) about careful
> evaluation of consequence trees...   It looks a lot like the adherence to an
> ideal (and/or aspect of self-image?).

Actually, it is purposeful, but not ideological, on my part.  My
unwillingness/inability to learn social grace has little to do with ideals and
more to do with practice.  I simply get along better with people who don't care
about social grace.

It took me a _long_ time to learn that.  I swapped in and out various ideologies
trying to find one that fit the data I had in hand.  None fit.  The best I can
come up with is laziness on my part.  If laziness is an ideology, then yeah, you
got me. ;-)

> Do you deny that people (egos) operate strongly on maintaining the integrity of
> their feedback loop of their self-image?  Some people do this by soliciting
> reinforcing feedback from others.  Some do it by talking out loud to themselves
> a lot (like I do here, pretending I'm talking to the rest of you).  And some do
> it by picking an idealized spot (or set of spots) on the idealism horizon and
> keeping their compass trained on them as they navigate the heavy weather of
> modern life.  Or all three?

No, I don't deny that people (organisms, even) are strongly driven by a
homeostatic self.  I just deny that it is solely or mostly in the _mind_.  I
believe people (like other organisms) have a huge number of feed forward and
feedback loops that constitute their self.  The overwhelming majority of them
are physiological.  E.g. it's much much easier to change a person (change their
self) using chemicals and physical stimulus than it is using words.

--
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
There is a velvet room for the discriminating pack.


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[Marcus G. Daniels]

"On the other hand, if what they say about his life is true, he shows a
remarkable _inability_ to complete anything he starts.  He seems to be a
serial
quitter, to me."

If that were just a flake, he wouldn't have had a 6 figure salary with the
NSA.  He raised the black flag early in his life.  With all the blood on
his hands, 50 more years of that might have seemed like a lot.  Dunno.

Marcus

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[Jochen Fromm-5]

Regarding the how it is done aspect:

Wired has an article last year that the NSA started
reverse-engineering the database that is used at Google.
Apparently the software is named Accumulo Achttp://accumulo.apache.org/
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/07/nsa-accumulo-google-bigtable/

Todd Hoff had an article at HighScalability recently that
explains how easy it is to build PRISM if you have the right data
http://highscalability.com/blog/2013/7/1/prism-the-amazingly-low-cost-of-using-bigdata-to-know-more-a.html

-J.


On 07/15/2013 05:47 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

I've started following the Snowden/PRISM thing a bit more, and came across this via twitter:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/15/crux-nsa-collect-it-all

Regardless of opinions on the ethics/legal side, the "collect it all" approach seems just impossible for me to grok.  Lets suppose you *did* have all the data generated on the internet every day for the last 20 years.  What could you do with it?

I presume they are using specialized hardware, possibly openCL sort of processing via GPU farms.  Fine.  How would you turn this into a usable tool?

Color me naive, but isn't this a self generated DOS on themselves?

   -- Owen

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[Jochen Fromm-5]

Indeed, if this is correct one method of surveillance is to
take a full snapshot of the complete haystack for a few days,
for example a buffer that can hold 3 days of the total traffic.
But it certainly has a big price tag.

Basically any corporation or organization that operates
on internet scale, which tries to collect, download, diff
or index the whole web or internet, will arrive at similar
tools of internet scale: many huge data centers,
BigTable software (such as HBase, Hypertable, and Cassandra),
MapReduce frameworks, etc. Looks like you need an
internet to store and process an internet?

On the contrary, if an organization builds one or more
huge, massive datacenters, one can assume that it is
operating or planning to operate on internet scale.

-J.


On 07/15/2013 06:04 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> ``Regardless of opinions on the ethics/legal side, the "collect it all"
> approach seems just impossible for me to grok.''
>
> Sounds like the UK is more aggressive in this regard: `full take' for 3
> days.
>
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edwar
> d-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html
>
> Marcus
>
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[Steve Smith]

Glen -
>> Exhibit A, One Glen Ropella who can't (by his own declaration) seem to get
>> through Social Ettiquete 101 in the OldSkool of hard knocking around.   What
>> is that about?   It is certainly not (or not obvious to me) about careful
>> evaluation of consequence trees...   It looks a lot like the adherence to an
>> ideal (and/or aspect of self-image?).
> Actually, it is purposeful, but not ideological, on my part.  My
> unwillingness/inability to learn social grace has little to do with ideals and
> more to do with practice.  I simply get along better with people who don't care
> about social grace.
That explains why I get along well with both you AND Doug...
>
> It took me a _long_ time to learn that.  I swapped in and out various ideologies
> trying to find one that fit the data I had in hand.  None fit.  The best I can
> come up with is laziness on my part.  If laziness is an ideology, then yeah, you
> got me. ;-)
I use lazy typing and late binding in my own personal life, and it took
a long time for me to come to that as well, and I have abstracted it
into an ideal on top of exercising it as a habit.
>> Do you deny that people (egos) operate strongly on maintaining the integrity of
>> their feedback loop of their self-image?  Some people do this by soliciting
>> reinforcing feedback from others.  Some do it by talking out loud to themselves
>> a lot (like I do here, pretending I'm talking to the rest of you).  And some do
>> it by picking an idealized spot (or set of spots) on the idealism horizon and
>> keeping their compass trained on them as they navigate the heavy weather of
>> modern life.  Or all three?
> No, I don't deny that people (organisms, even) are strongly driven by a
> homeostatic self.
Well put.
>    I just deny that it is solely or mostly in the _mind_.  I
> believe people (like other organisms) have a huge number of feed forward and
> feedback loops that constitute their self.
I'll accept this but insist that there is something going on *in* the
mind (whatever that is) which is at least the *illusion* of
self-maintained self.   While much of what passes as "free will" or "the
chosen self" in me might be the entrainment of my thoughts/feelings to
external modalities and resonances, it IS still what *I* experience.  I
think this is why Vipassana and other awareness-focused meditations can
be so powerful, they allow whatever our "mind" is to cut loose a little
bit from the bucking bronc of a brain/body/enviornment it is riding
around on.


>   The overwhelming majority of them
> are physiological.  E.g. it's much much easier to change a person (change their
> self) using chemicals and physical stimulus than it is using words.
Yah, I think most brainwashing and torture experts know this. Meanwhile
I think I'll have a beer and mull this over in my "mind" and give the
next guy who argues with me a good beating.

- Steve


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[Owen Densmore]

This could be interesting:

    Secret court sides with Yahoo, orders U.S. to declassify Prism surveillance ruling

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/usa-prism-yahoo-court-idUSL1N0FM20220130716

Not only Yahoo, who apparently resisted from the beginning, but now Google and M$ and others wish to disclose to the public the number of requests they were asked to fulfill.

Looks to me that the revolt is now coming from the Big Companies who want this behind them.  Good luck!

   -- Owen

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[glen ropella]

That's fantastic! It not only helps maintain (at least the illusion of)  an extant separation between govt and corporations, but a balance of power between those 2 branches of govt.

Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>This could be interesting:
>    Secret court sides with Yahoo, orders U.S. to declassify Prism
>surveillance ruling
>
>http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/usa-prism-yahoo-court-idUSL1N0FM20220130716


--
=><= glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

On 7/17/13 9:31 AM, glen wrote:
> That's fantastic! It not only helps maintain (at least the illusion of)  an extant separation between govt and corporations, but a balance of power between those 2 branches of govt.
>
> Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This could be interesting:
>>     Secret court sides with Yahoo, orders U.S. to declassify Prism
>> surveillance ruling
>>
>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/usa-prism-yahoo-court-idUSL1N0FM20220130716
And for other types of organizations too..

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/unitarian-church-gun-groups-join-eff-sue-nsa-over-illegal-surveillance

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[Owen Densmore]

Sweet!  We've always said right/left differences meet at libertarianism.

I think we should all join the Tea Party.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 7/17/13 9:31 AM, glen wrote:

That's fantastic! It not only helps maintain (at least the illusion of)  an extant separation between govt and corporations, but a balance of power between those 2 branches of govt.

Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

This could be interesting:
    Secret court sides with Yahoo, orders U.S. to declassify Prism
surveillance ruling

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/usa-prism-yahoo-court-idUSL1N0FM20220130716

And for other types of organizations too..

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/unitarian-church-gun-groups-join-eff-sue-nsa-over-illegal-surveillance

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

On 7/17/13 10:28 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> I think we should all join the Tea Party.
You're funny.

Taking a step back is not giving up.

Marcus

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[Gary Schiltz-4]

Agreed, but we could form an alliance with them on issues on which we agree. Some suggested names: "Herbal Tea Party" (we could also push for legalization of marijuana); "Chai Party" somehow seems more southwestern, though I'm not sure why; "Coffee Party" may already be taken; "Irish Whiskey Party" - now we're talking :-)

Gary

On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:31 AM, "Marcus G. Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/17/13 10:28 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>> I think we should all join the Tea Party.
> You're funny.
>
> Taking a step back is not giving up.
>
> Marcus

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

On 7/17/13 12:19 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> Agreed, but we could form an alliance with them on issues on which we agree. Some suggested names: "Herbal Tea Party" (we could also push for legalization of marijuana); "Chai Party" somehow seems more southwestern, though I'm not sure why; "Coffee Party" may already be taken; "Irish Whiskey Party" - now we're talking :-)
>
>
A certain Australian electro house band would be a catchy name amongst
the Tea Party folks (or the Domestic Terrorist Party depending on your
politics) as well as the club-going young people. I don't dare spell it
out for sake of the humor-impaired that might be reading!   Hint:  
Julius Caesar.

Marcus

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[glen ropella]

Marcus G. Daniels wrote at 07/17/2013 11:42 AM:
> On 7/17/13 12:19 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>> Agreed, but we could form an alliance with them on issues on which we agree.

This goes back to the comment someone (Steve, I think) made about whether or not
you really want your social network to include some of the people it actually
includes. ;-)  One of the reasons I stopped (blanketly) calling myself a
libertarian was because of all the ... hm, what can I call them ...
non-libertarians calling themselves libertarians.

I don't want to be associated with them, much less allied.

> A certain Australian electro house band would be a catchy name amongst the Tea
> Party folks (or the Domestic Terrorist Party depending on your politics) as well
> as the club-going young people. I don't dare spell it out for sake of the
> humor-impaired that might be reading!   Hint:  Julius Caesar.

Allright.  It's killing me.  You have to provide another hint.  Or rot13() it.
That way anyone who might be offended will have time to cool off. [grin]

--
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
We like to keep it on the D.L. because our clientele prefers it that way


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[Marcus G. Daniels]

"You have to provide another hint."

I would but You blocked me on Facebook!  :-)

Marcus

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[glen ropella]

[hidden email] wrote at 07/17/2013 01:57 PM:
> "You have to provide another hint."
>
> I would but You blocked me on Facebook!  :-)

LoL!  Lrnu, V oybpxrq rirelobql ba Snprobbx.

--
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
Every day I wake up to a bowl of clover honey and let the locusts fly in


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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Glen writes:

"Lrnu, V oybpxrq rirelobql ba Snprobbx."

Here's some elisp code to keep them busy:

(defun annoy-nsa ()
  (interactive)
  (let ((start (point)))
    (spook)
    (rot13-region start (point))))



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[Parks, Raymond]

In a strangely related story, Mark Zuckerberg reported that Facebook had the largest amount of unfriending and blocking ever on Sunday after the Zimmerman verdict.  ObComplexity: How does the dynamics of network connection breaking and making affect the analysis of networks?

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

On Jul 17, 2013, at 4:12 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Glen writes:

"Lrnu, V oybpxrq rirelobql ba Snprobbx."

Here's some elisp code to keep them busy:

(defun annoy-nsa ()
 (interactive)
 (let ((start (point)))
   (spook)
   (rot13-region start (point))))



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[Robert Holmes-3]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Parks, Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

ObComplexity: How does the dynamics of network connection breaking and making affect the analysis of networks?

SPILIOPOULOU, M (2011) "Evolution in social networks: a survey" in AGGARWAL, C "Social Network Data Analytics", Springer, New York. 

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[Parks, Raymond]

Before I spend $120 of your tax dollars, does that particular article cover the kind of massive breaking of connections that were attributed (incorrectly as it turns out) to Zuckerberg?  Even though the story was false, it seems possible that social networks might fragment in that manner over a subject controversial enough.

P.S. There was a lot of status and tweets that were extreme for one side or the other, but the Zuckerberg story was a Web parody that was picked up by a number of legitimate news-sites before they realized the fake.  It's kind of like the TV station that broadcast the prank pilot names of the Asiana flight.  Which brings up yet another ObComplexity: How does one account for the apparently increasing number of false reports that are coming up in the WWW news network/blogosphere due to the rapid cycle of social networks and Web news?

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

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On Jul 17, 2013, at 4:56 PM, Robert Holmes wrote:

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Parks, Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

ObComplexity: How does the dynamics of network connection breaking and making affect the analysis of networks?

SPILIOPOULOU, M (2011) "Evolution in social networks: a survey" in AGGARWAL, C "Social Network Data Analytics", Springer, New York. 

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[Hussein Abbass]

This is more like a controlled experiment: X received information L then decided to disconnect Y; L is the cause, disconnecting Y is the effect.

Now, let us assume that the network before L had weighted nodes and arcs. Can we explain why the effect was generated? What information can we infer about X?

Maybe X disconnected the link with Y because 

  - X perceives Y as a threat

  - X does not trust Y

  - X  received information in the past from Y that does not wish to receive in the future

  - X did not really know Y and decided to maintain connections with people/groups he/she knows well

  - X was threaten by L and X fears caused the effect

  - X knows adversarial learning and decided to inject random noise by disconnecting with random links

  - X and Y agreed to deceive an observer by disconnecting online

  - X is crazy, walk up in the morning and decided to disconnect with Y

  - two or more of the above if the set does not include mutually exclusive reasons

Now, start from the initial belief (weights on nodes and links, and some meta data), write some simple rules/heuristics that map the meta data and weights to one or more of the above, run it!

The rules need to strengthen a hypothesis on the rational of the effect based on who else X disconnected with.

Bingo ... all those who initiated disconnected links (responded to L) revealed information that would have taken years of traditional social network analysis and dynamics to infer!

Reliability of L does not matter, what matters is that X responded :)

The real question now is, how to reconnect the network? Someone else needs to design this experiment :-)

Hussein

On 18/07/2013, at 8:28 AM, "Parks, Raymond" <[hidden email]> wrote:

In a strangely related story, Mark Zuckerberg reported that Facebook had the largest amount of unfriending and blocking ever on Sunday after the Zimmerman verdict.  ObComplexity: How does the dynamics of network connection breaking and making affect the analysis of networks?

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

On Jul 17, 2013, at 4:12 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Glen writes:

"Lrnu, V oybpxrq rirelobql ba Snprobbx."

Here's some elisp code to keep them busy:

(defun annoy-nsa ()
 (interactive)
 (let ((start (point)))
   (spook)
   (rot13-region start (point))))



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