Friam

Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Classic

List

Threaded

10 messages Options

Stephen Guerin

Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Nice video of Steven Strogatz and Carlo Ratti discussing complexity
and urban design:

http://salon.seedmagazine.com/salon_strogatz_ratti.html
Strogatz mathematically describes how natural and sociocultural
complexity resolves into vast webs of order. Ratti uses technology as
a tool to create interactive urban environments. In this video Salon,
Strogatz and Ratti discuss whether building and analyzing human
networks can help us overcome our poor mathematical understanding of
complexity.

-S

--
--- -. . ..-. .. ... .... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... ....
[hidden email]
www.redfish.com
624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
mobile: (505)577-5828
office: (505)995-0206
london: +44 (0) 20 7993 4769

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Peter-2-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Nice one indeed , great catch Steve

But do we all realize the implications with the words - Feedback Loops - Giant Non Linear systems ( being measured with linear systems ) - Network theory not translating into Euclidean geometry.

I found the piece on natural laws of cities totally enlightening but fortunately for all of us SaFeans we live in Discworld nirvana where no natural laws apply as Owen can testify from his phenomenal research under Professor Pratchett

( : ( : pete

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com

Stephen Guerin wrote:

Nice video of Steven Strogatz and Carlo Ratti discussing complexity
and urban design:

http://salon.seedmagazine.com/salon_strogatz_ratti.html
Strogatz mathematically describes how natural and sociocultural
complexity resolves into vast webs of order. Ratti uses technology as
a tool to create interactive urban environments. In this video Salon,
Strogatz and Ratti discuss whether building and analyzing human
networks can help us overcome our poor mathematical understanding of
complexity.

-S

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Phil Henshaw-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Peter Baston

The idea offered that why cities become such thriving places for humans is because of the intensity of noise in the connections is somewhat fantastic. That’s really what Storgatz & Ratti are proposing, as traditional science has always proposed to explain what is inexplicable to it’s method. To their credit, the one thing they seem to accurately agree on is that science doesn’t have a clue how that would work, and that we do indeed observe daily that it somehow really does.

They should read Jane Jacobs on the Nature of Economies or the Economy of Cities, who brilliantly describes the actual creative mechanism of the environment. The productive “wide open door” to recognizing it, that most everyone opts not to walk through, is that it’s the diversity options, not the diversity of instructions in a creative organism like a city that do it. That sort of messes up the deterministic model, of course, but points to a gap in our rules where things could both exit and enter.

Phil Henshaw

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peter
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com

Stephen Guerin wrote:

Nice video of Steven Strogatz and Carlo Ratti discussing complexity

and urban design:

http://salon.seedmagazine.com/salon_strogatz_ratti.html

Strogatz mathematically describes how natural and sociocultural

complexity resolves into vast webs of order. Ratti uses technology as

a tool to create interactive urban environments. In this video Salon,

Strogatz and Ratti discuss whether building and analyzing human

networks can help us overcome our poor mathematical understanding of

complexity.

-S

Jochen Fromm-4

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Who said that cities are thriving places for humans?
I live in Berlin, which is not as big as London or
Tokio, but it is loud, crowded and polluted enough.
It is more exhausting than exciting to live here. Lots
of carcinogenic and pathogenic substances in the air.
You meet every day different people in the subway.
I think in a small city people know each other
much better, although you meet less people, you
are connected with more.

But I like the following statement from Steven Strogatz
in this interview, which leads us to "Black Swans" again:
"In the world of dynamical systems, from a mathematical
standpoint, feedback loops, especially in complex systems,
can be really scary. Because of their unintended consequences.
They can create all the beauty and richness in the world
around us as well as unforeseen horrors."

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Henshaw
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

The idea offered that why cities become such thriving places for humans is
because of the intensity of noise in the connections is somewhat fantastic.
That's really what Strogatz & Ratti are proposing, as traditional science
has always proposed to explain what is inexplicable to it's method. To
their credit, the one thing they seem to accurately agree on is that science
doesn't have a clue how that would work, and that we do indeed observe daily
that it somehow really does.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin

Guerin -

I'll see your Strogatz and raise you a Smolin!

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/lee_smolin_on_science_and_democracy.html

This talk by Lee Smolin while at TED addresses obliquely a lot of the talk about science, politics and religion (or at least world view).

- Steve

Nice video of Steven Strogatz and Carlo Ratti discussing complexity
and urban design:

http://salon.seedmagazine.com/salon_strogatz_ratti.html
Strogatz mathematically describes how natural and sociocultural
complexity resolves into vast webs of order. Ratti uses technology as
a tool to create interactive urban environments. In this video Salon,
Strogatz and Ratti discuss whether building and analyzing human
networks can help us overcome our poor mathematical understanding of
complexity.

-S

Phil Henshaw-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4

So very many Berliner's seem to rate the city above Paris, London and NY.
I'm wondering how you might not be aware of the status so many people see in
living there! Your second comment goes right to the point though, that the
Jekyll & Hyde feature of feedback loops is their special beauty and mystery
at the same time.

Awareness of that is also a key to watching them do it, how they switch from
multiplying good to multiplying harm in the relative "blink of an eye".
It's also one of their highly predictable features. The way markets can
promote a growth in wealth to a point and then beyond it's point of
diminishing returns promote a growth of instability... is one that would be
exceptionally profitable for us to pay close attention to, for example.

The 'bitter pill' seems to be that nature changes her rules as the
circumstances are altered, and we seem to define our identities in terms of
which rules we believe in, and that itself is a big mistake.

Phil Henshaw

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:06 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation
>
> Who said that cities are thriving places for humans?
> I live in Berlin, which is not as big as London or
> Tokio, but it is loud, crowded and polluted enough.
> It is more exhausting than exciting to live here. Lots
> of carcinogenic and pathogenic substances in the air.
> You meet every day different people in the subway.
> I think in a small city people know each other
> much better, although you meet less people, you
> are connected with more.
>
> But I like the following statement from Steven Strogatz
> in this interview, which leads us to "Black Swans" again:
> "In the world of dynamical systems, from a mathematical
> standpoint, feedback loops, especially in complex systems,
> can be really scary. Because of their unintended consequences.
> They can create all the beauty and richness in the world
> around us as well as unforeseen horrors."
>
> -J.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phil Henshaw
> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation
>
> The idea offered that why cities become such thriving places for humans
> is
> because of the intensity of noise in the connections is somewhat
> fantastic.
> That's really what Strogatz & Ratti are proposing, as traditional
> science
> has always proposed to explain what is inexplicable to it's method.
> To
> their credit, the one thing they seem to accurately agree on is that
> science
> doesn't have a clue how that would work, and that we do indeed observe
> daily
> that it somehow really does.
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Peter-2-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

In reply to this post by Phil Henshaw-2

Exactly the point that stuck out to me is two experts ( Top Rated ) from different disciplines saying " This is scary we really don't know and should find out " instead of heck lets just build it and see if the humans live ( We don't even do that to amphibians or reptile pets ) this from a senior member of a profession who's egos are bigger than Everest and about as unreachable.

The big kicker here will always be "You cannot measure or model therefore manage Giant Non linear Complex Systems with simple linear technology not mater how pretty the GUI "

Phil mentions Jane Jacobs and her work which is full of visually identified rules ( that work and do not ) with feedback loops and I will add Chris Alexander http://www.patternlanguage.com/ ( we are using both in our parametric model designs of education facilities tied to educational excellence )

Jochen's point about Berlin not being the greatest place to live in can be I think covered under " What exactly do you call excitement that every psychopath wants to know" and as Jane Jacobs and even Ratti points out designs go wrong but in many cases its just left up to the people in the FUBAR to suffer baby suffer.

Again from the silliness and partially scary aspect --- model your city or town on Discworld and see how close you can get, thats either good news or bad depending on your Guinness quota or in Jochens case Berliner Weisse

( : ( : pete

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com

Phil Henshaw wrote:

Peter Baston
The idea offered that why cities become such thriving places for humans is because of the intensity of noise in the connections is somewhat fantastic.    That’s really what Storgatz & Ratti are proposing, as traditional science has always proposed to explain what is inexplicable to it’s method.   To their credit, the one thing they seem to accurately agree on is that science doesn’t have a clue how that would work, and that we do indeed observe daily that it somehow really does.

They should read Jane Jacobs on the Nature of Economies or the Economy of Cities, who brilliantly describes the actual creative mechanism of the environment.    The productive “wide open door” to recognizing it, that most everyone opts not to walk through, is that it’s the diversity options, not the diversity of instructions in a creative organism like a city that do it.    That sort of messes up the deterministic model, of course, but points to a gap in our rules where things could both exit and enter.

Phil Henshaw
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peter
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Nice one indeed , great catch Steve

But do we all realize the implications with the words - Feedback Loops - Giant Non Linear systems ( being measured with linear systems ) - Network theory not translating into Euclidean geometry.

I found the piece on natural laws of cities totally enlightening but fortunately for all of us SaFeans we live in Discworld nirvana where no natural laws apply as Owen can testify from his phenomenal research under Professor Pratchett

( : ( : pete

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com
  

Phil Henshaw-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Peter Baston

Peter,

If that’s what you saw in their discussion then that’s fantastic. It’s a common either a right brain thinking sign of an approaching “ah ha” moment to come to a real impasse, often a sign of an approaching new realization. Either that or of dumping the whole mess and being given the gift of a clean slate, or both!

The basic difference I was hoping to bring out is that in natural systems exceedingly complex things are made simple when they are pulled as a chain of connections, but and even fairly simple things become unmanageably complex when you try to push them as a chain. The difference is between things getting pulled out of an environment by their user versus being pushed together into a tangle by some observer. Observer control of individual complex systems simply does not work. Sometimes we can apply observer control to statistically regular things that seem to take care of themselves the same way whatever we do to them. That can work fine… and be quite useful. It’s no way to steer individualistic complex systems, though.

Jane Jacobs is not the only person to point out the importance of environmental complexity as a foundation for environmental systems to thrive. It’s the rich diversity of different kinds of technology, ways of thinking and overlapping interests that is key to the vitality of the vibrant cities, industries and conversations. It has to do with both stimulating the creativity of individual innovators and the adaptability of their communities in a changing world. Because it’s the diversity that allows creativity and flexibility, decreases in diversity threaten ecosystems with collapse, as ‘one legged stools’ fall over. An urban example is how the automotive mono-culture around Detroit caused it to be a one-idea town that could not imagine anything else to do, and deteriorated after the automotive boom.

The whole subject of complex natural systems is about how the parts learn new tricks, and adapt as their own behavior or other things change their environments. Anywhere I look for it I find the creative parts do their part in that by local exploratory learning processes, small scale evolutionary elaboration and selection. That’s the inventor in the garage thing, or the idle conversations at lunch thing. It appears to only work if the learning parts have some rich leftovers of other forms to explore, and are not pushed in a way that disrupts their learning. It seems to be most basic to caring for systems you really must rely on to take care of themselves.

Phil Henshaw

From: peter [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:25 PM
To: [hidden email]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com

Phil Henshaw wrote:

Phil Henshaw

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peter
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

Peter Baston

IDEAS

www.ideapete.com

Russell Standish

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 05:06:03PM +0100, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Who said that cities are thriving places for humans?
> I live in Berlin, which is not as big as London or
> Tokio, but it is loud, crowded and polluted enough.
> It is more exhausting than exciting to live here. Lots
> of carcinogenic and pathogenic substances in the air.
> You meet every day different people in the subway.
> I think in a small city people know each other
> much better, although you meet less people, you
> are connected with more.

Strogatz was talking about the network effect, sometimes known as
Metcalfe's law (also known as "there's little value in having the
first telephone, who're you going to call?").

Without doubt, the power houses of innovation (whether business,
science, technology or the arts) are in the big cities. This is no
doubt because less than 1% of the population is responsible for
this innovation, so it requires a reasonable population before you can
connect with someone of similar or complementary interests. This
network effect also draws the brightest to the larger cities, further
compounding the network effect.

The internet has helped to some extent in ameliorating this issue. I
don't feel the attraction to move to a city like San Francisco or
Boston, because I can have discusions in fora like this. This is just
as well - where I live in Sydney, a city of more than 4 million, I
have a beach at the bottom of my garden, and if compilation times are
getting to me, I can just put on a mask and snorkel and swim with the
fishes. http://www.gordonsbayscubadivingclub.com/ I never thought
living in a big city could be so much fun.

Cheers
--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Mathematics
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email]
Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Phil Henshaw-2

Re: Strogatz and Ratti video conversation

The sneaky part, though you're quite right is saying:
"so it requires a reasonable population before you can connect with someone
of similar or complementary interests."

Is that it ALSO requires a reasonable population of diversely different
interests...!

Phil Henshaw

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Russell Standish
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:17 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strogatz and Ratti video conversation
>
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 05:06:03PM +0100, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> > Who said that cities are thriving places for humans?
> > I live in Berlin, which is not as big as London or
> > Tokio, but it is loud, crowded and polluted enough.
> > It is more exhausting than exciting to live here. Lots
> > of carcinogenic and pathogenic substances in the air.
> > You meet every day different people in the subway.
> > I think in a small city people know each other
> > much better, although you meet less people, you
> > are connected with more.
>
> Strogatz was talking about the network effect, sometimes known as
> Metcalfe's law (also known as "there's little value in having the
> first telephone, who're you going to call?").
>
> Without doubt, the power houses of innovation (whether business,
> science, technology or the arts) are in the big cities. This is no
> doubt because less than 1% of the population is responsible for
> this innovation, so it requires a reasonable population before you can
> connect with someone of similar or complementary interests. This
> network effect also draws the brightest to the larger cities, further
> compounding the network effect.
>
> The internet has helped to some extent in ameliorating this issue. I
> don't feel the attraction to move to a city like San Francisco or
> Boston, because I can have discusions in fora like this. This is just
> as well - where I live in Sydney, a city of more than 4 million, I
> have a beach at the bottom of my garden, and if compilation times are
> getting to me, I can just put on a mask and snorkel and swim with the
> fishes. http://www.gordonsbayscubadivingclub.com/ I never thought
> living in a big city could be so much fun.
>
> Cheers
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Mathematics
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email]
> Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org