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Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

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Owen Densmore

Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

Administrator

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Owen:
>
> How do I tell if I'm a zombie?
>
> [Even his best friends kept it from him!]
>
> Nick

There are folks much more in the know around here than I am, feel free to speak up!

Easiest is to use a pro like Dotfoil here in Santa Fe. But Googling will turn up something for your particular system as well.

I use a "root-kit" checker periodically (thus far clean) and a much more complete unix-y system (Macs are Unix), clamav, that checks every file on your system! (You can skip certain types of files, but hard to tell what to skip). Clamav now works on windows too. Unfortunately, they both just log questionable files, and require you to determine if they are bad.

The general advice is to just avoid direct exposure to the internet (i.e. use a wireless router w/ firewall), but that is only for active probing of machines (port scans for well known defects) by the bad guys. My mac mini (home server) was probed within 2 hours of being connected to the open internet! (I saw this because I opened a firewall port for ssh, for which I only use public/private crypto keys, no logins allowed)

The harder problem is indirect exposure to the raw internet .. mainly mail or websites & downloads (including mail attachments). These connections provide direct access to your machine, but only to the program being used. I've gotten several of these lately, all ending with ".exe" which is not a Mac file format .. a windows executable.)

To my knowledge, I've been hacked only once. It was a linux laptop in 1994 or so, while in Sun labs. The system had a few odd configuration changes and about a dozen of us looked at it and decided something was wrong so I wiped the system and started over. We think it was picked up while at the San Francisco Mosconi conference center. Problem did not reappear.

For the scale of systems we're talking about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet), your system will show some signs in general, but alas, signs that are typical for other, benign forms of mis-configuration. One cute trick is to try to limit C&C (command and control) access to your system. The bots communicate home via chat and other protocols that you likely do not use. You can configure your router to disallow outgoing use of their port numbers.

But dropping by Dotfoil periodically is a lot like a yearly checkup for your car, not a bad idea.

-- Owen

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Owen:
>
> How do I tell if I'm a zombie?
>
> [Even his best friends kept it from him!]
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen Densmore [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks
>
> Whew, thanks .. I thought I was loosing it. I couldn't understand any
> non-botnet (zombie collections) solution working, given how routers and load
> balancing works, along with their back-off timers for multiple requests from
> the same net.
>
> I was still skeptical until I found out that the Mariposa botnet consisted
> of > 12 million computers! Holy cow!
>
> Given that almost all home computers are on a router w/ firewall, I'm a bit
> surprised they can get this large a number of zombies. I guess they're
> hacking the routers?
>
> I suspect the recent Mac App Store includes the idea of keeping your
> computer clean: buy just certified apps and you're safe. Similarly the
> ChromeOS web-top could sandbox their system such that they too could be
> certified clean.
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 2:55 PM, David Jondreau wrote:
>
>> It's pretty easy. Essentially, a botnet is a collection of thousands of
> virus infected computers that can take orders. If you don't have your own
> botnet, or a friend with one, to send your spam or launch your DDOS, you can
> rent one.
>>
>> Yes, you can pay by the hour to use tens of thousands of computers to do
> your bidding.
>>
>> Pricing depends on the number of machines you want to use. But this
>> article at zdnet has some prices: $10/hr and $70/day.
>> http://bit.ly/ibQEZi
>>
>>
>> DJ
>>
>> -
>> David Jondreau | Wing Forward Solutions, LLC
>> 505.231.1074 | www.wingforward.net |
>> FileMaker Certified 9, 10, 11
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to be late back to the conversation .. but what I would like to
> know is how they access a very large number of machines which then can be
> used to mount the DDOS?
>>>
>>> Does 4chan allow this somehow? I understand 4chan does not require a
> registration, thus allowing semi "anonymous" users, although their routes
> are likely available.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, DDOS alway requires a large number of
> unaware/unwilling/clueless machines that have been hacked, and wait upon
> trigger events to run downloaded programs. This provides anonymity and
> power both.
>>>
>>> If these are just folks with several accounts on a hosting service (does
> 4chan allow hosted user apps like loic? or some sort of redirects/forwards
> of posts?), they are unlikely to create enough flooding agents, and are
> easily shut down because only the hosting services need to be targeted.
>>>
>>> Confused, please enlighten!
>>>
>>> -- Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Jon Bringhurst wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, it looks like I'm wrong. Here's an svn repo for the tool they
> used:
>>>>
>>>> <https://loic.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/loic>
>>>>
>>>> It looks like it loops http requests that don't download the entire
> result.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the teenager thing goes, here's an article about one who was
> arrested:
>>>> <http://gizmodo.com/5710568/dutch-4chan-teen-arrested-for-wikileaks-
>>>> revenge-attacks>
>>>>
>>>> -Jon
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Jonathan Bringhurst
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> The "zombies" came from a 4chan based /i/ board (a bunch of teenagers).
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone on there distributed a tool that floods an endpoint with
>>>>> half open syn requests.
>>>>>
>>>>> The targets were distributed to people via IRC and twitter (one of
>>>>> the twitter accounts was shut down half way through the attacks).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Jon
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 2:26 AM, Jon Bringhurst wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much of the "hacker battles" you refer to was just a bunch of
>>>>>>> teenagers who were bored (i.e. the ddos of paypal, visa, and
>>>>>>> mastercard).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, how do a bunch of bored teenagers do it? I thought it would
> take a reasonable amount of sophistication.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely the targets are reasonably protected against over-use by a
> single source address? Simple load balancing goes a long way, and any
> commercial grade router will detect too much traffic from a single address
> or even set of addresses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus the second "D" in ddos. The blackhat has to have created a large
> number of zombies that can be triggered to begin flooding targets. This
> solves the router problem and leaves load balancer to spread the requests
> among enough servers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One stunt the ddos folks use is to "hang" the requests, with protocols
> that require handshakes. They simply point the client address to a
> non-existing address hanging the TCP connection completion. But, again, you
> can buy boxes that solve this problem by creating proxies in the TCP stream
> which detect this flaw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I don't believe we could do it via an obvious use of curl, say,
> getting into a loop making requests of paypal. Maybe we should hire these
> bored kids? Or do you know how to do this easily?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Owen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe
> Complex "discuss" group.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email] To
>>>>>> unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe
> Complex "discuss" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email] To
>>>> unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe
> Complex "discuss" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email] To
>>> unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> [hidden email]
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe
> Complex "discuss" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email] To
>> unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> [hidden email]
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe Complex
> "discuss" group.
> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email] To unsubscribe
> from this group, send email to
> [hidden email]
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Santa Fe Complex "discuss" group.
> To post to this group, send email to [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> [hidden email]
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/a/sfcomplex.org/group/discuss

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

I think Microsoft Windows is Some kind of divine Darwinistic experiment designed to determine if humankind is mature enough to be allowed to use computers.

I mean, seriously, folks. Using Microsoft Windows? When you have options that are so much more secure, stable, usable, and <cough> FREE?

Oh, well. I realize that some (most?) people simply can't be taught. But still...

However there is, believe it or not, an upside to Window's proclivity to botnet/worm/virus infections. A fascinating read, even if it is from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/26/secret-agent-crippled-irans-nuclear-ambitions/

--Doug

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Owen:
>
> How do I tell if I'm a zombie?
>
> [Even his best friends kept it from him!]
>
> Nick

There are folks much more in the know around here than I am, feel free to speak up!

Easiest is to use a pro like Dotfoil here in Santa Fe. But Googling will turn up something for your particular system as well.

I use a "root-kit" checker periodically (thus far clean) and a much more complete unix-y system (Macs are Unix), clamav, that checks every file on your system! (You can skip certain types of files, but hard to tell what to skip). Clamav now works on windows too. Unfortunately, they both just log questionable files, and require you to determine if they are bad.

The general advice is to just avoid direct exposure to the internet (i.e. use a wireless router w/ firewall), but that is only for active probing of machines (port scans for well known defects) by the bad guys. My mac mini (home server) was probed within 2 hours of being connected to the open internet! (I saw this because I opened a firewall port for ssh, for which I only use public/private crypto keys, no logins allowed)

The harder problem is indirect exposure to the raw internet .. mainly mail or websites & downloads (including mail attachments). These connections provide direct access to your machine, but only to the program being used. I've gotten several of these lately, all ending with ".exe" which is not a Mac file format .. a windows executable.)

To my knowledge, I've been hacked only once. It was a linux laptop in 1994 or so, while in Sun labs. The system had a few odd configuration changes and about a dozen of us looked at it and decided something was wrong so I wiped the system and started over. We think it was picked up while at the San Francisco Mosconi conference center. Problem did not reappear.

For the scale of systems we're talking about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet), your system will show some signs in general, but alas, signs that are typical for other, benign forms of mis-configuration. One cute trick is to try to limit C&C (command and control) access to your system. The bots communicate home via chat and other protocols that you likely do not use. You can configure your router to disallow outgoing use of their port numbers.

But dropping by Dotfoil periodically is a lot like a yearly checkup for your car, not a bad idea.

-- Owen

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Owen:
>
> How do I tell if I'm a zombie?
>
> [Even his best friends kept it from him!]
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen Densmore [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks
>
> Whew, thanks .. I thought I was loosing it. I couldn't understand any
> non-botnet (zombie collections) solution working, given how routers and load
> balancing works, along with their back-off timers for multiple requests from
> the same net.
>
> I was still skeptical until I found out that the Mariposa botnet consisted
> of > 12 million computers! Holy cow!
>
> Given that almost all home computers are on a router w/ firewall, I'm a bit
> surprised they can get this large a number of zombies. I guess they're
> hacking the routers?
>
> I suspect the recent Mac App Store includes the idea of keeping your
> computer clean: buy just certified apps and you're safe. Similarly the
> ChromeOS web-top could sandbox their system such that they too could be
> certified clean.
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 2:55 PM, David Jondreau wrote:
>
>> It's pretty easy. Essentially, a botnet is a collection of thousands of
> virus infected computers that can take orders. If you don't have your own
> botnet, or a friend with one, to send your spam or launch your DDOS, you can
> rent one.
>>
>> Yes, you can pay by the hour to use tens of thousands of computers to do
> your bidding.
>>
>> Pricing depends on the number of machines you want to use. But this
>> article at zdnet has some prices: $10/hr and $70/day.
>> http://bit.ly/ibQEZi
>>
>>
>> DJ
>>
>> -
>> David Jondreau | Wing Forward Solutions, LLC
>> 505.231.1074 | www.wingforward.net |
>> FileMaker Certified 9, 10, 11
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to be late back to the conversation .. but what I would like to
> know is how they access a very large number of machines which then can be
> used to mount the DDOS?
>>>
>>> Does 4chan allow this somehow? I understand 4chan does not require a
> registration, thus allowing semi "anonymous" users, although their routes
> are likely available.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, DDOS alway requires a large number of
> unaware/unwilling/clueless machines that have been hacked, and wait upon
> trigger events to run downloaded programs. This provides anonymity and
> power both.
>>>
>>> If these are just folks with several accounts on a hosting service (does
> 4chan allow hosted user apps like loic? or some sort of redirects/forwards
> of posts?), they are unlikely to create enough flooding agents, and are
> easily shut down because only the hosting services need to be targeted.
>>>
>>> Confused, please enlighten!
>>>
>>> -- Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Jon Bringhurst wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, it looks like I'm wrong. Here's an svn repo for the tool they
> used:
>>>>
>>>> <https://loic.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/loic>
>>>>
>>>> It looks like it loops http requests that don't download the entire
> result.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the teenager thing goes, here's an article about one who was
> arrested:
>>>> <http://gizmodo.com/5710568/dutch-4chan-teen-arrested-for-wikileaks-
>>>> revenge-attacks>
>>>>
>>>> -Jon
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Jonathan Bringhurst
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> The "zombies" came from a 4chan based /i/ board (a bunch of teenagers).
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone on there distributed a tool that floods an endpoint with
>>>>> half open syn requests.
>>>>>
>>>>> The targets were distributed to people via IRC and twitter (one of
>>>>> the twitter accounts was shut down half way through the attacks).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Jon
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2010, at 2:26 AM, Jon Bringhurst wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much of the "hacker battles" you refer to was just a bunch of
>>>>>>> teenagers who were bored (i.e. the ddos of paypal, visa, and
>>>>>>> mastercard).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, how do a bunch of bored teenagers do it? I thought it would
> take a reasonable amount of sophistication.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely the targets are reasonably protected against over-use by a
> single source address? Simple load balancing goes a long way, and any
> commercial grade router will detect too much traffic from a single address
> or even set of addresses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus the second "D" in ddos. The blackhat has to have created a large
> number of zombies that can be triggered to begin flooding targets. This
> solves the router problem and leaves load balancer to spread the requests
> among enough servers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One stunt the ddos folks use is to "hang" the requests, with protocols
> that require handshakes. They simply point the client address to a
> non-existing address hanging the TCP connection completion. But, again, you
> can buy boxes that solve this problem by creating proxies in the TCP stream
> which detect this flaw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I don't believe we could do it via an obvious use of curl, say,
> getting into a loop making requests of paypal. Maybe we should hire these
> bored kids? Or do you know how to do this easily?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Owen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Parks, Raymond

Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Note - the following advice is for Winders - there are no significant botnets of OSX or Linux systems.

To detect if your system(s) are running bot software -

1. Be aware of changes in performance and behaviour of your system.

2. Log all traffic to the Internet and look for stuff you didn't cause.

3. If you suspect a problem and from time to time,

A. Download (using a different system) a live CD of an antivirus - Kaspersky and AVG both offer good free versions.

B. Disconnect your system from any networks (including wireless - disabling wireless or turning off your router)

C. Boot your system from the live CD and execute a complete system scan.

Unless you are the target of a nation-state adversary that should catch everything.

To keep from getting a bot, given that the primary sources of infection are email attachments, email URLs/links, and malware on web-servers -

1. Browse the web safely.

A. Use a browser that supports NoScript - Firefox or Seamonkey - obtain the plugin (donate if you can) and install it. AdBlock is another good one.

B. Set your browser to block pop-ups and redirects and warn of other insecure behaviour.

C. When NoScript warns of scripting, only give temporary permission to run scripts from web-sites when it makes sense (I never allow doubleclick).

D. Think before you proceed through warnings - does it make sense, has that web-site ever caused that warning before, etc..

2. Use email safely by restricting your client to text only - no HTML. Use the "if this email looks weird" links so your browser defenses can work.

I have done this for years and never had a virus or spyware. I don't even bother with AV and such - all they ever found were Windows components.

Ray Parks

----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Densmore [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:43 AM
To: SFx Discuss <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Owen:
>
> How do I tell if I'm a zombie?
>
> [Even his best friends kept it from him!]
>
> Nick

There are folks much more in the know around here than I am, feel free to speak up!

Easiest is to use a pro like Dotfoil here in Santa Fe. But Googling will turn up something for your particular system as well.

I use a "root-kit" checker periodically (thus far clean) and a much more complete unix-y system (Macs are Unix), clamav, that checks every file on your system! (You can skip certain types of files, but hard to tell what to skip). Clamav now works on windows too. Unfortunately, they both just log questionable files, and require you to determine if they are bad.

The general advice is to just avoid direct exposure to the internet (i.e. use a wireless router w/ firewall), but that is only for active probing of machines (port scans for well known defects) by the bad guys. My mac mini (home server) was probed within 2 hours of being connected to the open internet! (I saw this because I opened a firewall port for ssh, for which I only use public/private crypto keys, no logins allowed)

The harder problem is indirect exposure to the raw internet .. mainly mail or websites & downloads (including mail attachments). These connections provide direct access to your machine, but only to the program being used. I've gotten several of these lately, all ending with ".exe" which is not a Mac file format .. a windows executable.)

To my knowledge, I've been hacked only once. It was a linux laptop in 1994 or so, while in Sun labs. The system had a few odd configuration changes and about a dozen of us looked at it and decided something was wrong so I wiped the system and started over. We think it was picked up while at the San Francisco Mosconi conference center. Problem did not reappear.

For the scale of systems we're talking about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet), your system will show some signs in general, but alas, signs that are typical for other, benign forms of mis-configuration. One cute trick is to try to limit C&C (command and control) access to your system. The bots communicate home via chat and other protocols that you likely do not use. You can configure your router to disallow outgoing use of their port numbers.

But dropping by Dotfoil periodically is a lot like a yearly checkup for your car, not a bad idea.

-- Owen

On Dec 19, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

Administrator

On Dec 22, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:

> Note - the following advice is for Winders - there are no significant botnets of OSX or Linux systems.

Really? Whew!

But are you sure? Seems to me that there are large number of linux/unix servers running many VMs, all of which could be compromised. And macs are getting pretty popular for not only desktops but phones and pads. And what about all the smartphones, not just iPhones? Wouldn't a couple of million hacked androids be interesting to the bot-net folks? And game machines? And AppleTV .. and heck, the TVs themselves even.

And the real fear for me is the future hacking of the routers themselves, most are running linux nowadays, right?

I guess its just the massive number of windows computers still is most logical due to the numbers. I'm not at all sure windows is inherently more vulnerable than mac/linux, right?

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Parks, Raymond

Botnets <was Re: [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks>

Yeah, OSX doesn't have enough market share to be interesting to bot herders. Apple iOS and Android may change that but so far the RBN and such haven't figured out how to make money off them. BTW, don't think OSX or iOS aren't pwnable - all of the current crop of Adobe hacks work on them.

Linux has even less market share and it's use for servers makes it less attractive (except for web-servers). Servers make the Internet work - botting servers might cause the Internet to not work. That could get unhealthy for the bright person who does it and interferes with a $2 trillion organized crime economy.

The routing infrastructure (backbone, border, and edge) is mostly Cisco with Juniper running second and Foundry far behind. While IOS is based on BSD, every model runs a different version - Cisco is heterogenous. Nation state attacks on routing are probable - criminal attacks are not.

Ray Parks

----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Densmore [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 07:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [sfx: Discuss] What is Going on with wikileaks

On Dec 22, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:

> Note - the following advice is for Winders - there are no significant botnets of OSX or Linux systems.

Really? Whew!

But are you sure? Seems to me that there are large number of linux/unix servers running many VMs, all of which could be compromised. And macs are getting pretty popular for not only desktops but phones and pads. And what about all the smartphones, not just iPhones? Wouldn't a couple of million hacked androids be interesting to the bot-net folks? And game machines? And AppleTV .. and heck, the TVs themselves even.

And the real fear for me is the future hacking of the routers themselves, most are running linux nowadays, right?

I guess its just the massive number of windows computers still is most logical due to the numbers. I'm not at all sure windows is inherently more vulnerable than mac/linux, right?

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org