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RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism.

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Nick Thompson

RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism.

I have never understood the idea that animals are not self conscious in
some useful sense. Heck, self consciousness is a necessary part of any
feed forward system, isnt it?

As for the active role of the organism in Darwinism, I agree that the role
of para-genetic inheritance systems is becoming more and more evident every
day and that NeoDarwinism has been slow to adjust. If Carl would only get
busy on his artificial epigenisis idea.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
nickthompson at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson

> [Original Message]
> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 6/24/2006 12:00:30 PM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34
>
> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> friam at redfish.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> friam-request at redfish.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> friam-owner at redfish.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Friday, 30 June (Nicholas Thompson)
> 2. Re: Friday, 30 June (Tom Johnson)
> 3. Re: Sensor networks and self-organization (Phil Henshaw)
> 4. String-bashing (Robert Holmes)
> 5. Re: String-bashing (Martin C. Martin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:50:55 -0400
> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June
> To: Friam at redfish.com
> Message-ID: <380-22006652318505523 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi,
>
> Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam Meeting? And where does

that meeting occur these days.

>
> Nick
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:

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tml

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 18:22:34 -0600
> From: "Tom Johnson" <tom at jtjohnson.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June
> To: nickthompson at earthlink.net, "The Friday Morning Applied
> Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <e04090490606231722q653e378n169bfc292e2aee9d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Good ol' St. Johns. Looking forward to your visit.
> -t
>
> On 6/23/06, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam Meeting? And where does
> > that meeting occur these days.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> >

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enicktho
mpson>

> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ==========================================
> J. T. Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> www.analyticjournalism.com
> 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
> http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
>
> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
> To change something, build a new model that makes the
> existing model obsolete."
> -- Buckminster Fuller
> ==========================================
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:

/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060623/80bfc94b/attachment-0001.h
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 09:13:52 -0400
> From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <000601c69790$0ab72f60$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> My guess it won't happen that soon. The major hurdle I see is
> intelligence doesn't come from passively conforming to an imposed
> landscape (Darwin's idea), but from creatively exploring discovered ones
> (the living systems idea). ...I think maybe we're making great
> progress, but sort of need to start over with our design principle
> reversed!
>
>
> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040
> tel: 212-795-4844
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> explorations: www.synapse9.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
> > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 4:37 AM
> > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
> >
> >
> >
> > Intelligence is a very fuzzy and cloudy concept. My guess
> > it that the first machines with human-like intelligence
> > and self-consciousness are not far away, 10-20 years
> > perhaps (see the bets at http://www.longbets.org/1 or
> > http://www.longbets.org/15). This will > certainly be a
> > major
> > breakthrough - the next big evolutionary transition.
> > I personally think it is easier to build intelligent
> > agents in virtual worlds than robots in real worlds,
> > and I would expect the breakthrough here in the virtual
> > world. For the "secret of true AI", see the discussion at
> http://tinyurl.com/j4qck or http://tinyurl.com/k88wd
>
> -J.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
> Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 2:43 AM
> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
>
> Yea, how far away would anyone guess it is to the invention of the first
> 'intelligent' machine? Do you think it's a matter of one or many
> missing discoveries, or just applying current knowledge in a more
> complex way?
>
>
> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040
> tel: 212-795-4844
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> explorations: www.synapse9.com
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:07:44 -0600
> From: "Robert Holmes" <robert at holmesacosta.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] String-bashing
> To: FRIAM <Friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <857770150606240707g81b87c3od60d86c9d915faeb at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Here's a fun string-bashing article:
> http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articleArchive/jun2006/notevenwrong.php
>
> It makes a couple of serious points though. What I found worrying was the
> claim (for which the author provides some limited evidence) that it is now
> impossible to get on in physics academia unless you drink the string

theory
> kool-aid. Whither (or should that be wither) academic freeedom?
>
> Robert
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060624/de3d058a/attachment-0001.h
tml

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:46:06 -0400
> From: "Martin C. Martin" <martin at martincmartin.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] String-bashing
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <449D502E.4020909 at martincmartin.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Robert Holmes wrote:
> > What I found worrying was
> > the claim (for which the author provides some limited evidence) that it
> > is now impossible to get on in physics academia unless you drink the
> > string theory kool-aid. Whither (or should that be wither) academic
> > freeedom?
>
> This is a normal dynamic in science, first identified (in the popular
> mind) in Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226458083
>
> The interesting question to me is what will cause the next crisis, and

when.

>
> - Martin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Friam mailing list
> Friam at redfish.com
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> End of Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34
> *************************************

Russell Standish

RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2006 at 12:19:13AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> I have never understood the idea that animals are not self conscious in
> some useful sense. Heck, self consciousness is a necessary part of any
> feed forward system, isnt it?
>

Why do you say this?

--
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil Henshaw-2

RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism.

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

> I have never understood the idea that animals are not self
> conscious in some useful sense. Heck, self consciousness is
> a necessary part of any feed forward system, isn't it?
We've always thought of consciousness as some kind of on-off thing. I
think there's evidence of different kinds of 'consciousness'. Simply
any physical system acting as a whole is one starting point I think, or
call it an equivalent mystery if you like. It seems to begin with the
internalized loop networks of complex systems acting as a whole.
'Systems acting as a whole' and 'consciousness' both display a kind of
invisible but unified internal responsive structure or condition... or
something. It's heaping new meaning on a useful old word that anyone is
quite free to object to, of course, but would imply seeing evolution as
the bridge from one level of 'consciousness' to another. Whether you
like that linkage or not, I think it accurately suggests that there are
lots and lots of kinds of both to consider.

> As for the active role of the organism in Darwinism, I agree
> that the role of para-genetic inheritance systems is becoming
> more and more evident every day and that NeoDarwinism has
> been slow to adjust. If Carl would only get busy on his
> artificial epigenisis idea.
The evo. biologists have a concept - 'A' random with respect to 'B' -
(i.e. mutation to fitness) that looks at the interaction of different
levels of organization that may or may not be parts of the same
hierarchy (as a GST theorist might say it). That means coherent system
consequences of one kind may act as random events in another. I think
it was invented to close a certain door in the logic of the Darwinian
model, but is useful to help define the wall you need to jump over to
find more coherent connections between system parts or levels. That's
part of what I hope to be doing in my study of the non-linear dynamics I
found in a plankton speciation event.
[http://www.synapse9.com/GTRevis-2006fin.pdf]

> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> > To: <friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 6/24/2006 12:00:30 PM
> > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34
> >
> > Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> > friam at redfish.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > friam-request at redfish.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > friam-owner at redfish.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Friday, 30 June (Nicholas Thompson)
> > 2. Re: Friday, 30 June (Tom Johnson)
> > 3. Re: Sensor networks and self-organization (Phil Henshaw)
> > 4. String-bashing (Robert Holmes)
> > 5. Re: String-bashing (Martin C. Martin)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:50:55 -0400
> > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June
> > To: Friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID: <380-22006652318505523 at earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam Meeting? And where
> > does
> that meeting occur these days.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060623/519745a6/att
> achment-0001.h
> tml
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 18:22:34 -0600
> > From: "Tom Johnson" <tom at jtjohnson.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friday, 30 June
> > To: nickthompson at earthlink.net, "The Friday Morning Applied
> > Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID:
> > <e04090490606231722q653e378n169bfc292e2aee9d at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Good ol' St. Johns. Looking forward to your visit.
> > -t
> >
> > On 6/23/06, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Will anybody be in Santa Fe for 30 June's Friam Meeting?
> And where
> > > does that meeting occur these days.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > >
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson<http://home.earthlink.
> net/%7Enicktho
> mpson>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ==========================================
> > J. T. Johnson
> > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> > www.analyticjournalism.com
> > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
> > http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
> >
> > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
> > To change something, build a new model that makes the
> existing model
> > obsolete."
> > -- Buckminster
> > Fuller ==========================================
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060623/80bfc94b/att
> achment-0001.h
> tml
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 09:13:52 -0400
> > From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
> > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID: <000601c69790$0ab72f60$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > My guess it won't happen that soon. The major hurdle I see is
> > intelligence doesn't come from passively conforming to an imposed
> > landscape (Darwin's idea), but from creatively exploring
> discovered ones
> > (the living systems idea). ...I think maybe we're making great
> > progress, but sort of need to start over with our design principle
> > reversed!
> >
> >
> > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > NY NY 10040
> > tel: 212-795-4844
> > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> > explorations: www.synapse9.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
> > > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 4:37 AM
> > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Intelligence is a very fuzzy and cloudy concept. My guess
> > > it that the first machines with human-like intelligence
> > > and self-consciousness are not far away, 10-20 years
> > > perhaps (see the bets at http://www.longbets.org/1 or
> > > http://www.longbets.org/15). This will > certainly be a
> > > major
> > > breakthrough - the next big evolutionary transition.
> > > I personally think it is easier to build intelligent
> > > agents in virtual worlds than robots in real worlds,
> > > and I would expect the breakthrough here in the virtual
> > > world. For the "secret of true AI", see the discussion at
> > http://tinyurl.com/j4qck or http://tinyurl.com/k88wd
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
> > Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
> > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 2:43 AM
> > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sensor networks and self-organization
> >
> > Yea, how far away would anyone guess it is to the invention
> of the first
> > 'intelligent' machine? Do you think it's a matter of one or many
> > missing discoveries, or just applying current knowledge in a more
> > complex way?
> >
> >
> > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > NY NY 10040
> > tel: 212-795-4844
> > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> > explorations: www.synapse9.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:07:44 -0600
> > From: "Robert Holmes" <robert at holmesacosta.com>
> > Subject: [FRIAM] String-bashing
> > To: FRIAM <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID:
> > <857770150606240707g81b87c3od60d86c9d915faeb at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Here's a fun string-bashing article:
> > http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articleArchive/jun2006/notevenwrong.php
> >
> > It makes a couple of serious points though. What I found
> worrying was
> > the claim (for which the author provides some limited
> evidence) that
> > it is now impossible to get on in physics academia unless you drink
> > the string
> theory
> > kool-aid. Whither (or should that be wither) academic freeedom?
> >
> > Robert
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060624/de3d058a/att
> achment-0001.h
> tml
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:46:06 -0400
> > From: "Martin C. Martin" <martin at martincmartin.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] String-bashing
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID: <449D502E.4020909 at martincmartin.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Holmes wrote:
> > > What I found worrying was
> > > the claim (for which the author provides some limited
> evidence) that it
> > > is now impossible to get on in physics academia unless
> you drink the
> > > string theory kool-aid. Whither (or should that be
> wither) academic
> > > freeedom?
> >
> > This is a normal dynamic in science, first identified (in
> the popular
> > mind) in Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226458083
> >
> > The interesting question to me is what will cause the next
> crisis, and
> when.
> >
> > - Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Friam mailing list
> > Friam at redfish.com
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> >
> >
> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 36, Issue 34
> > *************************************
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

Jochen Fromm-3

RE Self consciousness and Passive Darwinism.

Of course there are many forms and degrees of consciousness.
I think it is quite ironic that humans with the highest form
of consciousness - self consciousness - must discover that
their own "self" probably does not really exist (although
it depends on what you mean with existence..).
Most processes with a "self" in the word are based on some
kind of feedback loop. If there is a cognitive process
involved, "feedback illusions" can arise which are based
on a coincidence of synchronous activities. Is the feeling
that a unified "I" or a "self" exists an illusion, too?
The self only an illusion of a central leader for the
distributed 'society of mind' in your head, as Minsky
calls it..

-J.