Friam

Pondering the slang Adulting

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Gillian Densmore

Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality

Thoughts?

Nick Thompson

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

I have often mused about trying to explain to a child what “adult” means, given

Adulthood

Adulterate

Adult movies

Adultery

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality

Thoughts?

Nick Thompson

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore

Glen,

I have always wondered about "trolling". Is it the monster under the bridge or the fisherman. Or both?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:52 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

It sounds to me like yet another effect of the information age, the decoupling of one's essential self from their environment/behavior. E.g. in gaming, a "tryhard" is someone who takes the game too seriously. It's just a game. It's OK if you lose. Or another e.g. trolling. When interacting with someone online who seems too sensitive or takes themselves too seriously, a decoupled person might *pretend* to be a Nazi or somesuch just to fsck with the person.

So too with adulting, where you do adult things but retain your *essence*, which is not so adult as to take adulting seriously ... to commit to it as a part of your identity. It reminds me of "imposter syndrome" and "fake it till you make it", both common phrases when I was 30 or so.

On 11/13/18 3:26 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the
> slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality Thoughts?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Steve Smith

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I've always preferred the pronunciation of "adult" as "A Dolt"... it is what I remember adults seeming like right up until I woke up and realized "now I am one!"

On 11/13/18 8:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

I have often mused about trying to explain to a child what “adult” means, given

Adulthood

Adulterate

Adult movies

Adultery

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality

Thoughts?
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

I find it more like 25-30 years of injuries, small and large. Some were necessary and/or self-inflicted, but I’m very different than I was (for better or worse).

I still wonder what it would be like to wake-up and feel like an adult, or if there are people happy with the idea and feel like it happened at an appropriate age. I think I would not like those people.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 9:28 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I've always preferred the pronunciation of "adult" as "A Dolt"... it is what I remember adults seeming like right up until I woke up and realized "now I am one!"

On 11/13/18 8:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

I have often mused about trying to explain to a child what “adult” means, given

Adulthood

Adulterate

Adult movies

Adultery

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality

Thoughts?
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Nick Thompson

FW: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Sorry, all. I meant this also to go to the list. See below:

Frank, this etymology seems wildly improbable. Do you think you might try it on your Latin scholar and see what she thinks. I suppose the two words could have converged in time. But I am awfully tempted by the notion of an adult as one who lacks innocence. On the other hand, the notion of a child as innocent sounds terrible Rousseau.

It’s a hairball.

Is the on-line etymology site reliable? I have been using it for years and sometimes the results are a bit bizarre.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Nick Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:31 PM
To: 'Frank Wimberly' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

The online etymological dictionary seems to suggest that there are two quite different sources for adult and adulterate. Seems unlike, but there it is:

adult (adj.)

1530s (but not common until mid-17c.) "grown, mature," from Latin adultus "grown up, mature, adult, ripe," past participle of adolescere "grow up, come to maturity, ripen," from ad "to" (see ad-) + alescere "be nourished," hence, "increase, grow up," inchoative of alere "to nourish," from a suffixed form of PIE root *al- (2) "to grow, nourish."

Meaning "mature in attitude or outlook" is from 1929. As a euphemism for "pornographic," it dates to 1958 and does no honor to the word. In the old British film-rating system, A indicated "suitable for exhibit to adult audiences," and thus, implicitly, unsuitable for children (1914).

adultery (n.)

"voluntary violation of the marriage bed," c. 1300, avoutrie, from Old French avouterie (12c., later adulterie, Modern French adultĕre), noun of condition from avoutre, from Latin adulterare "commit adultery; corrupt," from ad "to" (see ad-) + alterare "to alter" (see alter). Compare adulteration. The spelling was corrected toward Latin from early 15c. in English, following French (see ad-).

In Middle English, also "sex between husband and wife for recreational purposes; idolatry, perversion, heresy." As a crime, formerly classified as single adultery (with an unmarried person) and double adultery (with a married person). The Old English word was æwbryce "breach of law(ful marriage)" (similar formation in German Ehebruch). In translations of the 7th Commandment it is understood to mean "lewdness or unchastity" of any kind, in act or thought.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Frank Wimberly [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:56 PM
To: Thompson, Nicholas <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

Written with tongue in cheek:

Adulthood usually involves unadulterated avoidance of infantile and adolescent (recapitulates infancy) themes such as adultery (Oedipal) which frequently appear in adult movies, so-called because they are ill-advised for viewing by children who should know that there is hope of escaping the, to them, terrifying universal sexual dramas.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 8:38 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email] wrote:

I have often mused about trying to explain to a child what “adult” means, given

Adulthood
Adulterate
Adult movies
Adultery

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality
Thoughts?
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Gillian Densmore

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick re: trolling. Quit possibly. The slang form of troll, reffering to someone stomping about just to get attention goes back to at least the erra of modems and BullitenBoards. Personally I started seeing and getting a gist of the slang on MUD's. Text based DnD games that became the moderm MMO (Ever quest, star trek online and World Of Warcraft).

In WoW (world of warcraft) someone that says stuff to others to being sassy is bettER type of troll. That form has fallen out of favor to just the negative form. To meen seomeones saying stuff to rile up others. As glen sugested keeping polotical propiganda going (for example), taking jabs at peoples typos. On english heaving servers it's (sadly) very common for some trolls to take stabs at and make slights about peoples countries. Or go off about fox news.

Where as Adulting is kind of different because takes a toung in cheek (usually) look at someone. For example someone could say in a conversation. Argh I have to be an adult for a few moments to pick up my kids.

They can also use the slang take from a real example: Just to let you guys know I may need to do some adulting and grab my dog if my husband is late from work today.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:40 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen,

I have always wondered about "trolling". Is it the monster under the bridge or the fisherman. Or both?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:52 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

It sounds to me like yet another effect of the information age, the decoupling of one's essential self from their environment/behavior. E.g. in gaming, a "tryhard" is someone who takes the game too seriously. It's just a game. It's OK if you lose. Or another e.g. trolling. When interacting with someone online who seems too sensitive or takes themselves too seriously, a decoupled person might *pretend* to be a Nazi or somesuch just to fsck with the person.

So too with adulting, where you do adult things but retain your *essence*, which is not so adult as to take adulting seriously ... to commit to it as a part of your identity. It reminds me of "imposter syndrome" and "fake it till you make it", both common phrases when I was 30 or so.

On 11/13/18 3:26 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the
> slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality Thoughts?

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: FW: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

In response to this point as well as Marcus', I think that the concept of "becoming"... in this case "becoming an adult" is fascinating in the sense that it is something hard to reverse. "Innocence is a terrible thing to lose", yet our attempt to raise our children (and/or ourselves) up to be "adults" seems to involve, require, or at least suggest a loss of innocence.

I don't know if this is PoMo or PoPoMo, but the coining of a term like "adulting" seems to try to relieve this a bit. The definition I found implied "taking up (some of?) the features normally associated with being an adult". This seems to relieve some of the tension with remaining "innocent" while "ripening"?

I'm first reader on a memoir right now and the forward used the term "re-invention" and I brought up with the author the contrast of that term with "re-discovery" as much of the material seemed to be reflections on the way she came to recognize or remember things she probably always knew but in her attempt to "be an adult" managed to forget or push down, at least temporarily.

Thanks to Gil for stimulating another interesting opportunity for reflection.

On 11/13/18 10:55 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Sorry, all. I meant this also to go to the list. See below:

Frank, this etymology seems wildly improbable. Do you think you might try it on your Latin scholar and see what she thinks. I suppose the two words could have converged in time. But I am awfully tempted by the notion of an adult as one who lacks innocence. On the other hand, the notion of a child as innocent sounds terrible Rousseau.

It’s a hairball.

Is the on-line etymology site reliable? I have been using it for years and sometimes the results are a bit bizarre.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Nick Thompson [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:31 PM
To: 'Frank Wimberly' [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

The online etymological dictionary seems to suggest that there are two quite different sources for adult and adulterate. Seems unlike, but there it is:

adult (adj.)

1530s (but not common until mid-17c.) "grown, mature," from Latin adultus "grown up, mature, adult, ripe," past participle of adolescere "grow up, come to maturity, ripen," from ad "to" (see ad-) + alescere "be nourished," hence, "increase, grow up," inchoative of alere "to nourish," from a suffixed form of PIE root *al- (2) "to grow, nourish."

Meaning "mature in attitude or outlook" is from 1929. As a euphemism for "pornographic," it dates to 1958 and does no honor to the word. In the old British film-rating system, A indicated "suitable for exhibit to adult audiences," and thus, implicitly, unsuitable for children (1914).

adultery (n.)

"voluntary violation of the marriage bed," c. 1300, avoutrie, from Old French avouterie (12c., later adulterie, Modern French adultĕre), noun of condition from avoutre, from Latin adulterare "commit adultery; corrupt," from ad "to" (see ad-) + alterare "to alter" (see alter). Compare adulteration. The spelling was corrected toward Latin from early 15c. in English, following French (see ad-).

In Middle English, also "sex between husband and wife for recreational purposes; idolatry, perversion, heresy." As a crime, formerly classified as single adultery (with an unmarried person) and double adultery (with a married person). The Old English word was æwbryce "breach of law(ful marriage)" (similar formation in German Ehebruch). In translations of the 7th Commandment it is understood to mean "lewdness or unchastity" of any kind, in act or thought.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Frank Wimberly [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:56 PM
To: Thompson, Nicholas <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

Written with tongue in cheek:

Adulthood usually involves unadulterated avoidance of infantile and adolescent (recapitulates infancy) themes such as adultery (Oedipal) which frequently appear in adult movies, so-called because they are ill-advised for viewing by children who should know that there is hope of escaping the, to them, terrifying universal sexual dramas.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 8:38 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email] wrote:

I have often mused about trying to explain to a child what “adult” means, given

Adulthood

Adulterate

Adult movies

Adultery

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I got to talking with dad today and I hadn't though about how the slang adulting might have come about. My guess was in the sense of 'going off to be a' if you have a playful personality

Thoughts?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Thanks, Glen. Oh, I see that it has come to mean many things. Meaning is like that. But I was curious about its origin. Was the person who first used the term thinking about the Billie Goats Gruff (WHO'S THAT TRAMPING OVER MY BRIDGE!) [Yes, Owen, I am shouting.} or was he putting along, at 2 miles an hour, half a sleep in the back of a boat on a quiet Vermont lake?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 9:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I've always taken "the Troll" to be a species of Trickster... not always comfortable, but often valuable.

On 11/14/18 7:39 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote:

> It's come to mean many things, but all along the lines of provocation. Boghossian et al, for example, did a *great* job at provoking Wilson and Shaw and a host of other actual scholars into responding to their science fraud. But it's important, to me anyway, to remember that trolling also encompasses behaviors like Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and Socrates' treatment of Euthyphro.
>
> So, the options you've offered, fishing or monster, is impoverished. The village shaman is a better example. Even if shamen/witches mostly use provocation to hypnotize and control the villagers [†], we can assume that some (perhaps small) percentage of shamen/witches are doing it for the good of the tribe, not just to grab a quick bite.
>
> As I've posted before, here is my favorite defense of trolling:
>
> How to make a nuisance of yourself in [usenet] news
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20070609085706/http://www.sm.luth.se/~torke
> l/eget/net.html
>
> Torkel's dead, but definitely not forgotten!
>
> [†] Perhaps mostly in self-defense, since the physically or mentally abnormal people who didn't become holy people might be executed or exiled.
>
> On 11/13/18 7:40 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
>> I have always wondered about "trolling". Is it the monster under the bridge or the fisherman. Or both?

============================================================
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Nick Thompson

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Oh, but here's the point:

Is having sex "childing" or "adulting"?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 12:16 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I think this captures the irony in the youngsters' use of the word "adulting". It's a role and only a role. You sometimes *play* the role and you sometimes don't. It's like clothing you put on and take off ... much like an avatar in a video game.

I think it's an authentic attempt to be just a tad more honest about who we are and our self-image, which is why I mentioned impostor syndrome. And it goes hand-in-hand, I think, with LGBT rights and the fluidity of gender roles. I was intrigued when some celebrity (Aubrey Plaza maybe?) came out as *queer*, not gay. It seems to be an interesting stance wherein the person denies the (artificial) discretization of gender or sexual preference.

On 11/13/18 9:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I still wonder what it would be like to wake-up and feel like an
> adult, or if there are people happy with the idea and feel like it happened at an appropriate age. I think I would not like those people.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Glen writes:

< I think this captures the irony in the youngsters' use of the word "adulting". It's a role and only a role. You sometimes *play* the role and you sometimes don't. It's like clothing you put on and take off ... much like an avatar in a video game.

I think it's an authentic attempt to be just a tad more honest about who we are and our self-image, which is why I mentioned impostor syndrome. And it goes hand-in-hand, I think, with LGBT rights and the fluidity of gender roles. I was intrigued when some celebrity (Aubrey Plaza maybe?) came out as *queer*, not gay. It seems to be an interesting stance wherein the person denies the (artificial) discretization of gender or sexual preference. >

"Coming out" or asserting an individual to group relationship implies that some group expectations on individuals are appropriate and that individuals or sub-groups must negotiate a boundary with a majority. Otherwise, people would just do whatever they wanted and not even think to mention it. A truly individualistic society would aim to eliminate all group expectations, not just one special case at a time. No, you can have cyan hair and a same-sex partner of another race, but you can't share secrets with the competitors or wear cutoffs & a t-shirt to an important customer meeting. There's a short list of the Whatever-Ing options an adult really has.

Marcus

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

Glen writes;

< But isn't this the point of things like "kin selection" and "eusociality"? Hell, even *cats* share food and negotiate territory. Is there, in actuality, anything that's "truly individualistic"? >

Well, there is a difference between accurately observing that life is some way and recognizing it could be different.
I posit it is hard for many adults to look in their metaphorical toolshed and admit that was just what they had to accumulate.
It is easier to rationalize it is what they wanted for themselves and what is best for everyone. I posit that the difficulty in facing this kind of disappointment tends to feed authoritarianism. On the other hand, simple fantasy (Whatever-ing) doesn't fix anything either.

Marcus

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

Glen writes:

< Role-playing is *always* useful and fixes many things. But my disagreement probably depends on what you mean by "simple fantasy". That seems loaded. >

There's always Frank Abagnale for inspiration, but some roles are harder and riskier than others. Today I'm an Olympic athlete, tomorrow a billionaire..

Marcus

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gepr

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

OK. So, there exist gradations of role-play. But is, say, undercover work by cops any more useful than, say, karaoke? Or, taken to the extreme, is it any more useful than watching a movie about Batman and feeling jealous of the toys? "Usefulness" relies on some teleology that isn't always obvious. I'd argue that fantasy is merely another way to reason analogously ... a form of simulation, which helps us weigh our options and make rational decisions. Adulting is no different than simulated annealing.

On November 14, 2018 12:27:49 PM PST, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>There's always Frank Abagnale for inspiration, but some roles are
>harder and riskier than others. Today I'm an Olympic athlete,
>tomorrow a billionaire..
--
glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

I don't have an opinion on Usefulness, other than that it may be difficult to apply the outcome of such a simulation.
Imagine you invent a great way to play the market, but it depends on having low transaction costs and low latency. If you aren't able to sneak your way into the exchange, it just won't matter how clever your idea is.

At some point it is better to be able manipulate & observe a real system rather than experiment with a model that can't be validated. Role play seems an attractive modeling approach because it is a sort of practice for engaging in the real system, should there be an opportunity to get a foot in the door and engage with it -- emphasis on street smart rather than book smart.

On 11/14/18, 2:37 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

OK. So, there exist gradations of role-play. But is, say, undercover work by cops any more useful than, say, karaoke? Or, taken to the extreme, is it any more useful than watching a movie about Batman and feeling jealous of the toys? "Usefulness" relies on some teleology that isn't always obvious. I'd argue that fantasy is merely another way to reason analogously ... a form of simulation, which helps us weigh our options and make rational decisions. Adulting is no different than simulated annealing.

On November 14, 2018 12:27:49 PM PST, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>There's always Frank Abagnale for inspiration, but some roles are
>harder and riskier than others. Today I'm an Olympic athlete,
>tomorrow a billionaire..
--
glen

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gepr

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

There's no doubt that adulting depends on what old people actually do (i.e. interacting with the real system). The real trick is whether adulting is driven by the real world or severely abstracted stereotypes of what young people *think* is adult behavior. To me, walking the dog is NOT adulting, because I only walked a dog as a kid. But doing any task you really don't care about IS adulting if you do it in support of some idealized adult relationship. So your point is valid, if abstract. But it doesn't change the conclusion that playing the role of an adult is distinct from being an adult. And I maintain that playing the role is more powerful and less delusional than *being* the role.

On November 14, 2018 1:50:24 PM PST, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I don't have an opinion on Usefulness, other than that it may be
>difficult to apply the outcome of such a simulation.
>Imagine you invent a great way to play the market, but it depends on
>having low transaction costs and low latency. If you aren't able to
>sneak your way into the exchange, it just won't matter how clever your
>idea is.
>
>At some point it is better to be able manipulate & observe a real
>system rather than experiment with a model that can't be validated.
>Role play seems an attractive modeling approach because it is a sort of
>practice for engaging in the real system, should there be an
>opportunity to get a foot in the door and engage with it -- emphasis on
>street smart rather than book smart.

--
glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

Glen writes:

< The real trick is whether adulting is driven by the real world or severely abstracted stereotypes of what young people *think* is adult behavior. >

< But it doesn't change the conclusion that playing the role of an adult is distinct from being an adult. And I maintain that playing the role is more powerful and less delusional than *being* the role. >

One can adopt prototypes which will provide some cognitive insulation from being the role. Alternatively, one can define or mutate a definition of what being a responsible person means in a subjective sense. If this Self is not {de/re}constructed, I think it is probably copied from other prototypes. It is especially likely in adolescence when the pressure to fit-in is overwhelming. Whether the Self arises from lots of mixing and matching or from some sort of design is a detail. I'm just throwing out the possibility Self doesn't even exist for some people, or maybe even at all, so there is no need to keep an alternative prototype at arm's length.

Marcus

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

By "no need", I'm imagining a personality species stored in individuals. Suppose that personality P is instantiated only in individuals A and B which both refer to it as Self. P will be preserved so long as either A or B exist. I'm assuming that it is desirable to maximize the number of active personalities, and that Adulting is just a way to preserve a rare species of personality. In this case B could assign personality Q to Self and there is no immediate risk to personality species P. Adulting would be pushing Q on a Self stack to later pop it. Assignment is just as good for a Hive mind.

On 11/14/18, 3:34 PM, "Marcus Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen writes:

< The real trick is whether adulting is driven by the real world or severely abstracted stereotypes of what young people *think* is adult behavior. >

< But it doesn't change the conclusion that playing the role of an adult is distinct from being an adult. And I maintain that playing the role is more powerful and less delusional than *being* the role. >

One can adopt prototypes which will provide some cognitive insulation from being the role. Alternatively, one can define or mutate a definition of what being a responsible person means in a subjective sense. If this Self is not {de/re}constructed, I think it is probably copied from other prototypes. It is especially likely in adolescence when the pressure to fit-in is overwhelming. Whether the Self arises from lots of mixing and matching or from some sort of design is a detail. I'm just throwing out the possibility Self doesn't even exist for some people, or maybe even at all, so there is no need to keep an alternative prototype at arm's length.

Marcus

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Gillian Densmore

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick that's a good question! Without to much info. I'd saying that making love is a little of both. On one side it is my opinion if she is good enough to make love to, she's good enought to get her female need products and keep rubbers on hand. On the other side. IMO Making love should be playful-for example.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 12:33 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Oh, but here's the point:

Is having sex "childing" or "adulting"?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 12:16 PM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting

I think this captures the irony in the youngsters' use of the word "adulting". It's a role and only a role. You sometimes *play* the role and you sometimes don't. It's like clothing you put on and take off ... much like an avatar in a video game.

I think it's an authentic attempt to be just a tad more honest about who we are and our self-image, which is why I mentioned impostor syndrome. And it goes hand-in-hand, I think, with LGBT rights and the fluidity of gender roles. I was intrigued when some celebrity (Aubrey Plaza maybe?) came out as *queer*, not gay. It seems to be an interesting stance wherein the person denies the (artificial) discretization of gender or sexual preference.

On 11/13/18 9:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I still wonder what it would be like to wake-up and feel like an
> adult, or if there are people happy with the idea and feel like it happened at an appropriate age. I think I would not like those people.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Prof David West

Re: Pondering the slang Adulting

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,
there was a troll before there was acting like a troll (i.e. trolling), and the troll was a bridge lurker. Read, sometime, Vernor Vinge's SciFi book True Names for insight into how magical/mythical metaphors dominated the early days of computing/programming when master developers were wizards.

Adulting is byproduct of a culture and an economic class where social roles (e.g. child, adult, elder) are poorly and arbitrarily defined (e.g. 18 is 'adult' when you need cannon fodder in Vietnam, but 21 to indulge in socially acceptable induction of an altered state of consciousness); and when there are minimal, if any, ritualistic rites of passage marking transitions from role to role. I include economic class as a climate for silliness like "adulting" because 'adult' behavior is imposed and the child has no option and cannot revert.

Nice pun re "childing" but unless you are of the community that eschews sex except for procreative purposes; consensual sex will, most of the time, be adulting regardless of the age of the participants.

davew

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> Thanks, Glen. Oh, I see that it has come to mean many things. Meaning
> is like that. But I was curious about its origin. Was the person who
> first used the term thinking about the Billie Goats Gruff (WHO'S THAT
> TRAMPING OVER MY BRIDGE!) [Yes, Owen, I am shouting.} or was he putting
> along, at 2 miles an hour, half a sleep in the back of a boat on a quiet
> Vermont lake?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 9:15 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pondering the slang Adulting
>
> I've always taken "the Troll" to be a species of Trickster... not always
> comfortable, but often valuable.
>
>
> On 11/14/18 7:39 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote:
> > It's come to mean many things, but all along the lines of provocation. Boghossian et al, for example, did a *great* job at provoking Wilson and Shaw and a host of other actual scholars into responding to their science fraud. But it's important, to me anyway, to remember that trolling also encompasses behaviors like Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and Socrates' treatment of Euthyphro.
> >
> > So, the options you've offered, fishing or monster, is impoverished. The village shaman is a better example. Even if shamen/witches mostly use provocation to hypnotize and control the villagers [†], we can assume that some (perhaps small) percentage of shamen/witches are doing it for the good of the tribe, not just to grab a quick bite.
> >
> > As I've posted before, here is my favorite defense of trolling:
> >
> > How to make a nuisance of yourself in [usenet] news
> >
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20070609085706/http://www.sm.luth.se/~torke
> > l/eget/net.html
> >
> > Torkel's dead, but definitely not forgotten!
> >
> > [†] Perhaps mostly in self-defense, since the physically or mentally abnormal people who didn't become holy people might be executed or exiled.
> >
> > On 11/13/18 7:40 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> >> I have always wondered about "trolling". Is it the monster under the bridge or the fisherman. Or both?
>
>
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