Friam

Please change the damned thread

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thompnickson2

Please change the damned thread

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Please change the damned thread

Nick writes:

< The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from? >

It seems to me to the extent one can remember and describe a dream, one has the tools to generate it. Supposing that dreaming is a distributional learning process that moves experiences into long term memory, and is not surprising that a lot of high energy events would arise: Weird plots with unusual interactions of objects and agents. What is surprising to me is not that there this is disorder, but that there is order. For example, I recently woke up in a dream, let the dog out, and then the dream continued like a half hour later. It is like there is a training procedure underway, that was suspended and restarted.

Marcus

gepr

Re: Please change the damned thread

Maybe a bit of a tangent ... and I only read it while in a haze of insomnia at 02:00 this morning. But this seems related:

Time Flows Toward Order - Julian Barbour
http://nautil.us/issue/93/forerunners/time-flows-toward-order

On 12/8/20 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> What is surprising to me is not that there this is disorder, but that there is order. For example, I recently woke up in a dream, let the dog out, and then the dream continued like a half hour later. It is like there is a training procedure underway, that was suspended and restarted.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him. During the first year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I took a course in cognitive processes. One of the themes of that course was the failure of behaviorism. That approach was described to us as an early 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that the result was a realization that that was not possible. After a year I became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer science.

When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what he meant by that. And my recollection is that he said that he thought that people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings and beliefs from their behavior. I found this to be anathema because to me my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with certainty. Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.

We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and generally had an enjoyable friendship. We cooperated on the Santa Fe Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University. That book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit privately before joining the meeting.

Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test. He then mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him. I knew he had been feeling badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from Bonnet's Syndrome. Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the topic. If so, I apologize again.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>
> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.
>
> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Please change the damned thread

It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds you’d be shaking your fists about it. Obviously it was not “abuse”. It seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like Neuralink is poised to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

>

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

>

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Please change the damned thread

I like the image of two old men on their deathbed shaking their fists.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:17 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds you’d be shaking your fists about it. Obviously it was not “abuse”. It seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like Neuralink is poised to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him. During the first year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I took a course in cognitive processes. One of the themes of that course was the failure of behaviorism. That approach was described to us as an early 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that the result was a realization that that was not possible. After a year I became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer science.

When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what he meant by that. And my recollection is that he said that he thought that people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings and beliefs from their behavior. I found this to be anathema because to me my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with certainty. Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.

We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and generally had an enjoyable friendship. We cooperated on the Santa Fe Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University. That book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit privately before joining the meeting.

Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test. He then mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him. I knew he had been feeling badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from Bonnet's Syndrome. Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the topic. If so, I apologize again.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

>

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

>

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Please change the damned thread

Do not go gently into that good night.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:29 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I like the image of two old men on their deathbed shaking their fists.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:17 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds you’d be shaking your fists about it. Obviously it was not “abuse”. It seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like Neuralink is poised to do.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him. During the first year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I took a course in cognitive processes. One of the themes of that course was the failure of behaviorism. That approach was described to us as an early 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that the result was a realization that that was not possible. After a year I became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer science.

When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what he meant by that. And my recollection is that he said that he thought that people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings and beliefs from their behavior. I found this to be anathema because to me my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with certainty. Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.

We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and generally had an enjoyable friendship. We cooperated on the Santa Fe Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University. That book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit privately before joining the meeting.

Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test. He then mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him. I knew he had been feeling badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from Bonnet's Syndrome. Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the topic. If so, I apologize again.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

>

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

>

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

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gepr

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Nah, it's not so obvious. One of the recurring themes is the question of why so few women participate [⛧]. It's often written off to confrontation or the typical male pattern of simply waiting until it's your turn to talk, etc. But I think there's something deeper lurking, some style at work. What's "obvious" to some will not be obvious to all. This, BTW, is a hallmark of groups where some members are more tightly coupled than others and subtext is rampant. Good ol' boys are called "good ol' boys" for good reasons. (I'm not saying I know what those reasons are, of course. I'm as abusive as the next *guy*. But to sweep it all under the rug as "we know each other and engage in this behavior all the time" or some sort of unwritten standard that identifies abusive behavior, seems inadequate.)

I know almost nobody who reads this will care about such meta-narratives. C'est la vie.

[⛧] And I don't intend to be sexist about it. It's just one example. I know at least 1 male participant who feels put off by the implicit style of the group.

On 12/8/20 12:16 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Obviously it was not “abuse”.
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

For what it's worth, Frank, it's hard for me to even imagine you being abusive to anyone, let alone a friend like Nick.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 2:45 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him. During the first year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I took a course in cognitive processes. One of the themes of that course was the failure of behaviorism. That approach was described to us as an early 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that the result was a realization that that was not possible. After a year I became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer science.

When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what he meant by that. And my recollection is that he said that he thought that people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings and beliefs from their behavior. I found this to be anathema because to me my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with certainty. Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.

We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and generally had an enjoyable friendship. We cooperated on the Santa Fe Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University. That book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit privately before joining the meeting.

Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test. He then mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him. I knew he had been feeling badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from Bonnet's Syndrome. Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the topic. If so, I apologize again.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>
> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.
>
> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by gepr

I'll give a different example.

An ostensibly women's group where someone posts an article about how women are disproportionately hurt by not being able to work during the pandemic. IIRC the article was from Science or Nature -- that could have been a coincidence, or some sort of appeal to authority, not sure. The poster, a woman, did not remark on their own situation, in particular if she was a mother or if in her relationships she was in fact impacted negatively. Just the article.

It occurred to me there is an expectation in the U.S. that people who have children will get support from society and government (e.g. tax breaks), and in fact disproportionately from those that do not. And that is not good feminist policy to set norms in such a way that women are favored if they take on the obligation of child care. My view is that a woman who is treated fairly should receive similar support no matter whether she plans on having children or not. Otherwise I think that a mom should take it up with her spouse and not with rest of the taxpaying public. It was a risk they took when they decided to have children. The pandemic exposed that risk. Ooops.

So in this example, the norm or subtext of that group was to support that constituency of women, not women in principle. Here, there's a subtext of concern for an person at health risk vs. subtext about a long running debate that not everyone may be familiar with. There's subtext in most academic fields where methods with obscure names are assumed and conventional wisdom taken for granted.

Marcus

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 1:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

Nah, it's not so obvious. One of the recurring themes is the question of why so few women participate [⛧]. It's often written off to confrontation or the typical male pattern of simply waiting until it's your turn to talk, etc. But I think there's something deeper lurking, some style at work. What's "obvious" to some will not be obvious to all. This, BTW, is a hallmark of groups where some members are more tightly coupled than others and subtext is rampant. Good ol' boys are called "good ol' boys" for good reasons. (I'm not saying I know what those reasons are, of course. I'm as abusive as the next *guy*. But to sweep it all under the rug as "we know each other and engage in this behavior all the time" or some sort of unwritten standard that identifies abusive behavior, seems inadequate.)

I know almost nobody who reads this will care about such meta-narratives. C'est la vie.

[⛧] And I don't intend to be sexist about it. It's just one example. I know at least 1 male participant who feels put off by the implicit style of the group.

On 12/8/20 12:16 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Obviously it was not “abuse”.
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gepr

Re: Please change the damned thread

OK. But abuse need not be intentional. And I'd argue that most abuse is systemic in this way, habituated patterns that may or may not become unhealthy over time. This would also be true of your breeder example. If there were a time when most people, especially most women, were expected to be breeders, it might well be good feminist policy to support women who happen to be breeders, because there's the expectation that would cover the overwhelming majority of women. However, things change. If we've entered a new period where its no longer true that most people, especially most women, are expected to be breeders, then the prior habituated, systemic pattern is now unintentionally coercive.

And that unintentional coercion has to be recognized before the political will to modify it will be found.

We see a similar pattern in the "defund the po-lice" rhetoric ... and in that Hedges article. Even if Hedges is hyperbolic, the (neoliberal, accidental) abuse must first be hypothesized and, if found true, identified, before it can be rectified.

On 12/8/20 1:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I'll give a different example.
>
> An ostensibly women's group where someone posts an article about how women are disproportionately hurt by not being able to work during the pandemic. IIRC the article was from Science or Nature -- that could have been a coincidence, or some sort of appeal to authority, not sure. The poster, a woman, did not remark on their own situation, in particular if she was a mother or if in her relationships she was in fact impacted negatively. Just the article.
>
> It occurred to me there is an expectation in the U.S. that people who have children will get support from society and government (e.g. tax breaks), and in fact disproportionately from those that do not. And that is not good feminist policy to set norms in such a way that women are favored if they take on the obligation of child care. My view is that a woman who is treated fairly should receive similar support no matter whether she plans on having children or not. Otherwise I think that a mom should take it up with her spouse and not with rest of the taxpaying public. It was a risk they took when they decided to have children. The pandemic exposed that risk. Ooops.
>
> So in this example, the norm or subtext of that group was to support that constituency of women, not women in principle. Here, there's a subtext of concern for an person at health risk vs. subtext about a long running debate that not everyone may be familiar with. There's subtext in most academic fields where methods with obscure names are assumed and conventional wisdom taken for granted.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Please change the damned thread

Glen writes:

< We see a similar pattern in the "defund the po-lice" rhetoric ... and in that Hedges article. Even if Hedges is hyperbolic, the (neoliberal, accidental) abuse must first be hypothesized and, if found true, identified, before it can be rectified. >

A hypothesis itself, certainly as stated by Hedges, can itself be abuse in the sense it is an unqualified accusation of dishonesty. It can be answered, but requires stepping away from his particular value system.
For example, maybe not everyone gets to thrive. Even in that situation (which is the norm) there can still be a debate about how orderly and transparent the system is that leads to allocation of shared resources.

Marcus

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Steve Smith

Bees in one's Bonnet (syndrome)

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

You will notice that I did (finally) change the subject line of my latest thread-fray (i.e. Estuarial Stigmergy)... I was feeling badly for you to have to see your name up over and over on the subject line. Since I was the one to coin "Nick's Recovery" I will accept some blame for not helping to redirect/damp it sooner.

I misheard your original post (to beg off being at vFriam) as a hint that you might have been just then falling down a COVID hole. I take this all to mean that you did not, in fact, have any COVID symptoms or even a COVID scare, and for that I am grateful (on your behalf as well as that of my empathy).

As for the Bees in one's Bonnet (syndrome)... I am probably more prone to diving down those holes than you (and many others here) are, but less than a few likely suspects (who needn't be named). It sounds as if you have been wrestling with some of your own phantasms of some sort and I don't need to play tag-team with them, helping them to wrestle you to the ground (or bash you with a folding chair).

I like your question: "Where the hell does the information come from?"... and trust that many here will draw their sabers (or wet noodles) and give it a good working over. I'll save my own throwdown for after the fray frays the question a little more.

- Steve

On 12/8/20 10:20 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM

> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

>

> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.

>

> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

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gepr

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Agreed. But like with your "just kidding" comment, venues like newspapers, web logs, and mailing lists are NOT media for interpersonal relationships. They're posts to public fora. And Hedges' hyperbolic message, being a public essay, is a rhetorical post, not an accusation. And, again, this is where the postmodernists' warnings are well-taken. Read too literally and you'll be misled. Read too figuratively and you'll be misled. Accusations of accusation are a bit like the fallacy fallacy and hearken back to Poe's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

On 12/8/20 2:18 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A hypothesis itself, certainly as stated by Hedges, can itself be abuse in the sense it is an unqualified accusation of dishonesty. It can be answered, but requires stepping away from his particular value system.
> For example, maybe not everyone gets to thrive. Even in that situation (which is the norm) there can still be a debate about how orderly and transparent the system is that leads to allocation of shared resources.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Please change the damned thread

I suppose it is unsurprising that people are intrigued by celebrities like Trump as leaders. A projection of the complex needs of a large population to something much easier to process. Like Hedges rhetoric simplifies a set of tradeoffs (e.g. Kerry's efforts toward energy independence versus their environmental consequences). It seems that's what many people want from social networking platforms, is to maintain local or interpersonal type dynamics. Accusation is perhaps the wrong word -- nucleating bad faith for the sake of a pitch, is more my objection. Preventing that nucleation pretty much requires confrontation. Of course, many will turn back to the consensus of their tribes, finding it unpleasant to have everything they say stripped down to the bone.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 3:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

Agreed. But like with your "just kidding" comment, venues like newspapers, web logs, and mailing lists are NOT media for interpersonal relationships. They're posts to public fora. And Hedges' hyperbolic message, being a public essay, is a rhetorical post, not an accusation. And, again, this is where the postmodernists' warnings are well-taken. Read too literally and you'll be misled. Read too figuratively and you'll be misled. Accusations of accusation are a bit like the fallacy fallacy and hearken back to Poe's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

On 12/8/20 2:18 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A hypothesis itself, certainly as stated by Hedges, can itself be abuse in the sense it is an unqualified accusation of dishonesty. It can be answered, but requires stepping away from his particular value system.
> For example, maybe not everyone gets to thrive. Even in that situation (which is the norm) there can still be a debate about how orderly and transparent the system is that leads to allocation of shared resources.

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gepr

Re: Please change the damned thread

Awesome! "Nucleating bad faith". I've looked for a concise phrase for the headlines on hard left aggregator sites for a long time. Now you've given it to me. I don't read them. But I assume hard right sites like Drudge and Breitbart are the same.

Despite my nauseatingly regular evocation of the Great Man Theory, I sympathize a little bit with those who yearn for trustworthy heuristics. Even consultants can't *always* get away with the answer "it depends". We ordinary mortals get tired out trying to sieve the wheat from the chaff. So I guess I can't blame them for buying products from Goop or looking for a nucleator of some kind. I don't know. I think I'll test my blood sugar ... fasting on weight days probably makes me susceptible to faulty reasoning. 8^D

On 12/8/20 3:22 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I suppose it is unsurprising that people are intrigued by celebrities like Trump as leaders. A projection of the complex needs of a large population to something much easier to process. Like Hedges rhetoric simplifies a set of tradeoffs (e.g. Kerry's efforts toward energy independence versus their environmental consequences). It seems that's what many people want from social networking platforms, is to maintain local or interpersonal type dynamics. Accusation is perhaps the wrong word -- nucleating bad faith for the sake of a pitch, is more my objection. Preventing that nucleation pretty much requires confrontation. Of course, many will turn back to the consensus of their tribes, finding it unpleasant to have everything they say stripped down to the bone.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: Please change the damned thread

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

All’s well, Frank; all’s well.

You must also remember that we took a course together on Laird’s FEELINGs. Your ideas were an enormously helpful whetstone against which the ideas that came out of that seminar were honed. Thanks, for that.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 1:45 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest. Please read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.

Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleaugues,

There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become drowned in laments about lumbago. In retrospect, I wish I had informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would persue the matter further.

I tried, unsuccessfully, to bridge to the less personal topic to Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me philosophically. Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming. The enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex structures, and blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist. Where the hell does the information come from?

It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my brain. I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of you are.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery

Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.

On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning, and so more absurd than abusive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>
> It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify the habit as abusive.
>
> On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies. I am hoping that you didn't find it so. Marcus hasn't been privy to the hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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