Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
 
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Mexico is for the USA what Egypt is for Europe:
a nearby place for holidays with magnificient ruins of an ancient culture (although I prefer Greece or Italy for holidays instead of Egypt). I wonder how many of you have been walking around real Maya pyramids with Linda Schele's book "The Code of Kings" or Michael D. Coe's text about "The Maya" in your hands? Do you share the impression that most major temples and pyramids have been found and most of the preserved hieroglyphs have been deciphered? How much is left to discover in archaeology and other sciences? It looks like the things that can be calculated with "bare hands" have already been done in Mathematics as well.. What do you think? -J. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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I think the Toltecs were the most bloody, degenerate, disreputable culture that has disgraced the planet in semi-recorded history (present company excluded, of course). Handball games where the captain of the winning team was obliged to decapitate the captain of the losing team and then do a slam-dunk with the head?
No, thanks. The ruins in Chichen-Itza are impressive, though. --Doug
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote: Mexico is for the USA what Egypt is for Europe: -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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The Toltecs don't belong to the Maya,
they are more predecessors of the Aztecs. The Maya were the culture with the most elaborate and interesting writings. But you are right, we can find on the one hand extreme violence and brutality among nearly all Mesoamerican cultures, and on the other hand highest culture in form of hierogylphs and writing systems. I guess people back then were not that different from today, some just wanted to be peaceful farmers, while others insisted on repulsive rituals, bloody sacrifices and endless wars. The film Apocaylpto from Mel Gibson describes it well, I think it is quite authentic. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Roberts To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and more I think the Toltecs were the most bloody, degenerate, disreputable culture that has disgraced the planet in semi-recorded history (present company excluded, of course). Handball games where the captain of the winning team was obliged to decapitate the captain of the losing team and then do a slam-dunk with the head? No, thanks. The ruins in Chichen-Itza are impressive, though. --Doug ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote: The Toltecs don't belong to the Maya, True, but after the Toltecs conquered the Mayans, their cultures merged for a longish period during which the barbaric practices of the Toltecs dominated.
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished
civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each murder one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death blow by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can just see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for these special ceremonies. Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine gunners all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to remove the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did they still use flint maces? Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from white diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or Katyn Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become better at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed them in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA R2J 3R2 (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax [hidden email] -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: April 27, 2010 6:42 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and more The Toltecs don't belong to the Maya, they are more predecessors of the Aztecs. The Maya were the culture with the most elaborate and interesting writings. But you are right, we can find on the one hand extreme violence and brutality among nearly all Mesoamerican cultures, and on the other hand highest culture in form of hierogylphs and writing systems. I guess people back then were not that different from today, some just wanted to be peaceful farmers, while others insisted on repulsive rituals, bloody sacrifices and endless wars. The film Apocaylpto from Mel Gibson describes it well, I think it is quite authentic. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Roberts To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and more I think the Toltecs were the most bloody, degenerate, disreputable culture that has disgraced the planet in semi-recorded history (present company excluded, of course). Handball games where the captain of the winning team was obliged to decapitate the captain of the losing team and then do a slam-dunk with the head? No, thanks. The ruins in Chichen-Itza are impressive, though. --Doug ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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This discussion needs to be continued over (non-elitist) Vodka.
Although I would prefer Irish Whiskey.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky <[hidden email]> wrote: My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:
The astronomy was impossible and the arrival of the Europeans was only off by several centuries, but no reason why the depiction of everyday life shouldn't be taken as authentic, for some value of authentic. ;-)
There's an open-access PNAS article today about pre-Columbian agriculture in the Amazon and how their engineering has fared in the centuries since their extermination, http://www.pnas.org/content/107/17/7823.short.
-- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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I think there is still much to be learned, especially about pre-contact North-South trade routes and, hence, cultural diffusion. I have a recent interest in, for example, the use/role of lienzos (see www.lienzo.ufm.edu) during that period. And there are relatively new discoveries at places like El Mirador in Guatemala.
REC: Plz tell us more about how/why "The astronomy was impossible"? -tj On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- ========================================== J. T. Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA www.analyticjournalism.com 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email] "Be Your Own Publisher" http://indiepubwest.com ========================================== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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Quote:
"One thing they got wrong astronomically is a diddling point, but "Apocalypto" depicts a Solar Eclipse one day then that night a Full Moon. Nope, impossible! As any stargazer worth her telescope can tell you, Solar Eclipsi are only possible when the moon is in the new phase, which is the opposite of a Full Moon. Now I know Gibson wanted the artistic look of the moonlight through the leaves in the forest, but this was glaringly inaccurate. Especially if you're an amateur astronomer." http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=2830 On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: I think there is still much to be learned, especially about pre-contact North-South trade routes and, hence, cultural diffusion. I have a recent interest in, for example, the use/role of lienzos (see www.lienzo.ufm.edu) during that period. And there are relatively new discoveries at places like El Mirador in Guatemala. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer
he says "before we decry practices such as human sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of 500 years ago burned people alive in the name of religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of tortures and protracted executions" I wonder why civilization and barbarism go often hand in hand? The Romans for example were very civilized, but also very brutal. It seems as if a system becomes especially brutal if it's existence in threatened (the church by heretics in the Middle Ages which lead to inquisition, the Romans by insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis turned into real death factories when the existence of the Nazi regime was threatened towards the end of the war. Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs - who were even worse than the Maya when it comes to human sacrifices - developed a high culture (including hieroglyphic writing systems and elaborate temples) and yet drowned in all the blood.. Because a small number of tyrannic rulers knew their existence was questionable and threatened.. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished > civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each > murder > one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death > blow > by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of > executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They > probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can > just > see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement > inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for > these > special ceremonies. > > Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news > and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine > gunners > all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to > remove > the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) > > Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only > yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant > ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did > they > still use flint maces? > > Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from > white > diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. > > Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or > Katyn > Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become > better > at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. > > What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient > ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed > them > in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to > implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. > > > > Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky > Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) > > 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. > Winnipeg, Manitoba > CANADA R2J 3R2 > (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax > [hidden email] > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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In reply to this post by Sarbajit Roy (testing)
Exactly. I sat there looking at the full moon and imagined Mel Gibson whipping the solar system through 14 days of celestial mechanics in the 12 hours elapsed in the script. In my mind it made this horrible grinding noise.
-- rec -- On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, sarbajit roy <[hidden email]> wrote: Quote: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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Maybe they got it wrong, but does it matter if the moon is half or full if
you can see realistic actors speaking Yucatec Maya in an authentic environment? The Maya Hierogylphs are phonetic signs which encode this language. If you watch documentations like "Cracking the Maya Code" ( see http://bit.ly/9l4fop ), you wonder how they might have lived, and what they may have thought. Mel Gibson's film shows it. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Critchlow To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and more Exactly. I sat there looking at the full moon and imagined Mel Gibson whipping the solar system through 14 days of celestial mechanics in the 12 hours elapsed in the script. In my mind it made this horrible grinding noise. -- rec -- On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, sarbajit roy <[hidden email]> wrote: Quote: "One thing they got wrong astronomically is a diddling point, but "Apocalypto" depicts a Solar Eclipse one day then that night a Full Moon. Nope, impossible! As any stargazer worth her telescope can tell you, Solar Eclipsi are only possible when the moon is in the new phase, which is the opposite of a Full Moon. Now I know Gibson wanted the artistic look of the moonlight through the leaves in the forest, but this was glaringly inaccurate. Especially if you're an amateur astronomer." http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=2830 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
Your comments struck me as quite profound,
The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort to such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going to use as much horror to intimidate as possible. The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays. We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads on display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear so prominently. On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go hand in hand? Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of such dramatic displays. Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered why the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his nation. I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , they are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps someone will correct me. Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to leaders. "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand human nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation where a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating signal. Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should preceed expansion phases of the society. Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs made it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was in some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot (Khmer Rouge) Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA R2J 3R2 (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax [hidden email] -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer he says "before we decry practices such as human sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of 500 years ago burned people alive in the name of religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of tortures and protracted executions" I wonder why civilization and barbarism go often hand in hand? The Romans for example were very civilized, but also very brutal. It seems as if a system becomes especially brutal if it's existence in threatened (the church by heretics in the Middle Ages which lead to inquisition, the Romans by insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis turned into real death factories when the existence of the Nazi regime was threatened towards the end of the war. Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs - who were even worse than the Maya when it comes to human sacrifices - developed a high culture (including hieroglyphic writing systems and elaborate temples) and yet drowned in all the blood.. Because a small number of tyrannic rulers knew their existence was questionable and threatened.. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished > civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each > murder > one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death > blow > by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of > executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They > probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can > just > see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement > inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for > these > special ceremonies. > > Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news > and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine > gunners > all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to > remove > the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) > > Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only > yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant > ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did > they > still use flint maces? > > Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from > white > diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. > > Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or > Katyn > Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become > better > at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. > > What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient > ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed > them > in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to > implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. > > > > Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky > Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) > > 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. > Winnipeg, Manitoba > CANADA R2J 3R2 > (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax > [hidden email] > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and more
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
I guess I find sloppiness to be an indicator of sloppiness. If you can script the sun and moon to do something they've never done, who's to say what other photogenic impossibilities have slipped into your story? Clearly, if the laws of physics do not constrain your storytelling why should the facts of history, prehistory, or archaeology give you any pause? So wikipedia notes:
The solar eclipse -- which catches all those savages by surprise -- was probably predictable by the Maya, at least according to http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/33_01/maya.html
I already mentioned that the Europeans in Apocalypto were anachronistic by a few centuries, but I can't find the discussion of the evidence that the culture depicted was earlier than the 16th century. Having written tables for eclipse predictions in the 13th century argues for having been able to roughly predict them for centuries previous while collecting the observations necessary to refine the predictions.
So the Mayan ability to predict solar eclipses may be as much as a millennium ahead of Mel Gibson's, -- rec -- On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe they got it wrong, but does it matter if the moon is half or full if you can see realistic actors speaking Yucatec Maya in an authentic environment? The Maya Hierogylphs are phonetic signs which encode this language. If you watch documentations like "Cracking the Maya Code" ( see http://bit.ly/9l4fop ), you wonder how they might have lived, and what they may have thought. Mel Gibson's film shows it. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
I would suggest that what is at stake is efficiency. Those who can do
civilization efficiently can also do brutality efficiently. Those who do
civilization grandly, are in a position to brutality grandly. The notion that
civilization and brutality are mutually exclusive is clearly proved wrong by
history.
Eric
Your comments struck me as quite profound, The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort to such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going to use as much horror to intimidate as possible. The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays. We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads on display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear so prominently. On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go hand in hand? Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of such dramatic displays. Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered why the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his nation. I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , they are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps someone will correct me. Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to leaders. "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand human nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation where a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating signal. Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should preceed expansion phases of the society. Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs made it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was in some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot (Khmer Rouge) Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA R2J 3R2 (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax [hidden email] -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer he says "before we decry practices such as human sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of 500 years ago burned people alive in the name of religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of tortures and protracted executions" I wonder why civilization and barbarism go often hand in hand? The Romans for example were very civilized, but also very brutal. It seems as if a system becomes especially brutal if it's existence in threatened (the church by heretics in the Middle Ages which lead to inquisition, the Romans by insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis turned into real death factories when the existence of the Nazi regime was threatened towards the end of the war. Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs - who were even worse than the Maya when it comes to human sacrifices - developed a high culture (including hieroglyphic writing systems and elaborate temples) and yet drowned in all the blood.. Because a small number of tyrannic rulers knew their existence was questionable and threatened.. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished > civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each > murder > one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death > blow > by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of > executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They > probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can > just > see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement > inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for > these > special ceremonies. > > Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news > and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine > gunners > all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to > remove > the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) > > Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only > yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant > ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did > they > still use flint maces? > > Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from > white > diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. > > Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or > Katyn > Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become > better > at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. > > What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient > ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed > them > in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to > implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. > > > > Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky > Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) > > 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. > Winnipeg, Manitoba > CANADA R2J 3R2 > (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax > [hidden email] > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Eric Charles
Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
Eric,
Vladimir's point is too unique to be assimilated to "The Germans weren't any more rotten: they were just more efficient than the rest of us." His claim is that brutality will tell us something about the stage of development of any culture. Now this raises all sorts of interesting things to mull about. Do societies develop? Are born, mature, grow old, and die? Are the aging ones more brutal? Or those coming into maturity? Is scale an orthogonal variable to maturity? Can we find small societies that pass through such stages?
I doubt there is a relationship between brutality and maturity. It would be nice to think that the violence in the American south is the result of the dying of an old Pre Civil War Era, but how long can a society be thought to be in its death throes. 150 years seems too long to be dying, and some have argued that the Civil War was itself a dying gasp of the southern social order. The violence of the US toward the American Indians (and the violence of the Turks against the Armenians) seems to be part of aggressive assertion on the part of "new" "liberal" societies.
As usual, I don't know what I am talking about here, but i am finding the discussion interesting.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Eric Charles
Hi Eric
Your observation / suggestion is brutally accurate and civilised brutality is an index of how far the civilisation has advanced in its life cycle. In my particular civilisation brutality is institutionalised as follows - 'saam daam dand bhed' (sometimes attributed to Chanakya - India's Machiavelli). This loosely translates as "reasoning, price, punishment, terror". When a citizen agitates against the King, the first step is to pacify the agitator with reason and sweet words. When he persists - coopt him with blandishments, after that punish him by putting him in jail or whatever, Finally let loose a reign of terror, brutality and division of ranks. When even this fails the player must knock down his king and resign. Here's a link to another interesting book [http://transbooks.com/cata/lus02.html] titled "When The Amerindians Were Vassals: Power Equations in Northern Brazil (1750-1800) by Ângela Domingues and translated by Roopanjali Roy" Sarbajit On 4/28/10, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote: > I would suggest that what is at stake is efficiency. Those who can do > civilization efficiently can also do brutality efficiently. Those who do > civilization grandly, are in a position to brutality grandly. The notion > that > civilization and brutality are mutually exclusive is clearly proved wrong by > history. > > Eric > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 05:48 PM, "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> > wrote: > >> Your comments struck me as quite profound, >> >>The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the >>instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort >> to >>such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going >>to use >>as much horror to intimidate as possible. >>The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. >>The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics >>when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a >>frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays. >> >>We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads >> on >>display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear >> so >>prominently. >> >>On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os >>paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go >>hand in hand? >> >>Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of >>such dramatic displays. >> >>Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity >>applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. >>The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our >>need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered >> why >>the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. >> >>At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket >>scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards >>we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. >> >>Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his >> nation. >>I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in >>and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , >>they >>are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps >>someone will correct me. >> >>Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for >>Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to >>leaders. >> >> "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" >>So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a >>lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand >> human >>nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. >> >>If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation >> where >>a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention >>of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating >> signal. >>Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of >>blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention >>what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. >> >>If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one >>would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if >>Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should >>preceed expansion phases of the society. >> >>Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler >>accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs >> made >>it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, >>perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was >> in >>some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot >>(Khmer Rouge) >> >> >> >> >> >>Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >>Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >>M.Sc.(Biology) >> >>120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >>Winnipeg, Manitoba >>CANADA R2J 3R2 >>(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >>[hidden email] >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On >> Behalf >>Of Jochen Fromm >>Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM >>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn >> >>In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer >>he says "before we decry practices such as human >>sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of >>500 years ago burned people alive in the name of >>religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of >>tortures and protracted executions" >> >>I wonder why civilization and barbarism go >>often hand in hand? The Romans for example >>were very civilized, but also very brutal. >>It seems as if a system becomes especially >>brutal if it's existence in threatened >>(the church by heretics in the Middle Ages >>which lead to inquisition, the Romans by >>insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in >>WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis >>turned into real death factories when the >>existence of the Nazi regime was threatened >>towards the end of the war. >> >>Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs >>- who were even worse than the Maya >>when it comes to human sacrifices - >>developed a high culture (including >>hieroglyphic writing systems and >>elaborate temples) and yet drowned in >>all the blood.. Because a small number of >>tyrannic rulers knew their existence was >>questionable and threatened.. >> >>-J. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[hidden email]> >>To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" >><[hidden email]> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM >>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn >> >> >>> My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished >>> civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each >>> murder >>> one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death >>> blow >>> by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams >>> of >>> executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They >>> probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can >>> just >>> see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of >>> replacement >>> inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for >>> these >>> special ceremonies. >>> >>> Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news >>> and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine >>> gunners >>> all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to >>> remove >>> the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) >>> >>> Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only >>> yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their >>> distant >>> ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did >>> they >>> still use flint maces? >>> >>> Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from >>> white >>> diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. >>> >>> Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or >>> Katyn >>> Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become >>> better >>> at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. >>> >>> What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient >>> ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed >>> them >>> in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to >>> implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >>> Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >>M.Sc.(Biology) >>> >>> 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >>> Winnipeg, Manitoba >>> CANADA R2J 3R2 >>> (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >>> [hidden email] >>> >>> >> >>============================================================ >>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >>============================================================ >>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> > > > > Eric Charles > > Professional Student and > Assistant Professor of Psychology > Penn State University > Altoona, PA 16601 > > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
>
> > Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same > grandiosity > applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. > The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats, etc. I thought about this, both in connection with Hitlerian architecture (godawful but appears early in the Nazi ascendancy, and trails on into the 1960s--since I consider New York's Lincoln Center Albert Speer's last hurrah) and also in connection with the American skyscraper, which emerged in the very late 1800s with the invention of the elevator, and reached its heyday in the 1930s. Sabloff did not mention concomitant civil violence, and I don't have enough knowledge to propose a theory about it. The spectacle of architecture in the oil-rich states, such as Dubai, might be another example. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
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Having recently been in Abu Dhabi and Dubai and writing now from
Istanbul, I am inclined to agree with Pamela. Grand gestures, however, may well be more short-lived within the contemporary economies. Pamela McCorduck wrote: >> >> >> Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same >> grandiosity >> applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. >> The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. > > Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose > specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan > civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group > where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments > of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that > civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats, > etc. > > I thought about this, both in connection with Hitlerian architecture > (godawful but appears early in the Nazi ascendancy, and trails on into > the 1960s--since I consider New York's Lincoln Center Albert Speer's > last hurrah) and also in connection with the American skyscraper, > which emerged in the very late 1800s with the invention of the > elevator, and reached its heyday in the 1930s. Sabloff did not mention > concomitant civil violence, and I don't have enough knowledge to > propose a theory about it. > > The spectacle of architecture in the oil-rich states, such as Dubai, > might be another example. > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Palenque, Pyramids and Machu Picchu
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In reply to this post by Pamela McCorduck
No, this is not always true. It depends on what
you mean with "great". Huge and large or impressive and important? The impressive and important architectural monuments of a civilization are not always erected early in that civilization's ascendancy. Machu Picchu was built near the end of the Inca empire (around 1400 AD). The Acropolis of Athens was constructed and rebuilt mainly around 430 BC, at the end of Classical Greece. The ancient Egyptians built pyramids during a long time, during the whole Old Kingdom (from 2500-2100 BC). It is true that the first true pyramids (from Cheops, Chephren and Mykerinos ) were the largest. The famous Luxor Temples were founded much later during the Middle Kingdom 1400 BC. And the Abu Simbel temples in the South are great architectural monuments, too, they were built by Ramesses (Ramses) II in the New Kingdom near the end of the ancient Egyptian civilization. The pyramids of Teotihuacan were very large, but the ones from Tikal, Palenque and Chichen Itza are even more impressive. They are great monuments as well! It is known that Teotihuacan had a very strong influence on Tikal and other Maya cities, maybe some of the Maya pyramids are an attempt to surpass or imitate the ones in Teotihuacan, just as Cheops tried to surpass his father Snofru. So it is true that the early monuments are often the biggest or the most primitive and simple ones. They often serve as a model or prototype for later constructions. But they are not always the greatest. If we consider this as a feature of an evolutionary system, then the early forms explore the spatial dimension (from tiny bacteria to huge dinosaurs) while the late forms explore the more complex dimensions (from intelligent mammals to humans). -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pamela McCorduck" <[hidden email]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > > Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose specialty > is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan civilization, > gave a little talk in late December to a small group where he mentioned > in passing that the great architectural monuments of a civilization are > nearly always erected early in that civilization's ascendancy--the > Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats, etc. > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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