Palenque, Chichen Itza and more

[Tom Johnson]

But don't forget that often times the grand structures we see today were built atop previous and smaller versions, which were built atop previous and smaller version, etc.  It's turtles all the way down.

-tom

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Having recently been in Abu Dhabi and Dubai and writing now from Istanbul, I am inclined to agree with Pamela.  Grand gestures, however, may well be more short-lived within the contemporary economies.


Pamela McCorduck wrote:

Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity
applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses.
The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization.

Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats, etc.

I thought about this, both in connection with Hitlerian architecture (godawful but appears early in the Nazi ascendancy, and trails on into the 1960s--since I consider New York's Lincoln Center Albert Speer's last hurrah) and also in connection with the American skyscraper, which emerged in the very late 1800s with the invention of the elevator, and reached its heyday in the 1930s. Sabloff did not mention concomitant civil violence, and I don't have enough knowledge to propose a theory about it.

The spectacle of architecture in the oil-rich states, such as Dubai, might be another example.
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--
==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
www.analyticjournalism.com
505.577.6482(c)                                    505.473.9646(h)
http://www.jtjohnson.com                 [hidden email]

"Be Your Own Publisher"
http://indiepubwest.com
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[Jochen Fromm-4]

Yes, examples are the step pyramid in Chichen Itza
("El Castillo"), the North Acropolis of Tikal,
and the Acropolis of Copan (for example temple 26).

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Johnson
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn


But don't forget that often times the grand structures we see today were
built atop previous and smaller versions, which were built atop previous and
smaller version, etc.  It's turtles all the way down.

-tom



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[Pamela McCorduck]

I would agree with Sabloff re the Parthenon: it was built quickly  
(fifteen years!) at the beginning of the ascendancy of international  
Attic influence, and then that influence trailed off into Hellenism  
and eventually the Roman Empire.

The others I don't know about. But Sabloff's credentials are pretty  
good, and he may only have meant it as a rule-of-thumb, not an  
invariant.


On Apr 30, 2010, at 3:10 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

> Yes, examples are the step pyramid in Chichen Itza
> ("El Castillo"), the North Acropolis of Tikal,
> and the Acropolis of Copan (for example temple 26).
>
> -J.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Johnson
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn
>
>
> But don't forget that often times the grand structures we see today  
> were built atop previous and smaller versions, which were built atop  
> previous and smaller version, etc.  It's turtles all the way down.
>
> -tom
>
>
>
> ============================================================
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>

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[Sarbajit Roy (testing)]

Hi

Where would one place say the Taj Mahal in the context of the Mughal
(alternatively Indo-Islamic) civilisation's ascendancy? Or the Eiffel
Tower in the context of French (alternatively Gallic) civilisation?

Mr Sabloff's observation reminds me of the old saw, "A priest, a
scientist and a mathematician are travellng on a train through France
and spot a black cow in the distance. Priest: "Behold God hath colored
all cows black. Scientist: You're wrong, only some cows are black.
Mathematician: Somewhere in a field in France there exists at least
one cow at least one of side of which is black.."

On 4/29/10, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>>
>> Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same
>> grandiosity
>> applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses.
>> The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization.
>
> Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose
> specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan
> civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group
> where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments
> of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that
> civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats,
> etc.

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[scaganoff]

Were these activities there to support a reign of terror, or was there
another motivation? I think it was Joseph Campbell who pointed out
that only agricultural civilizations practiced large scale human
sacrifice. If the basis of your economy depends on mysterious and
capricious weather forces then it makes sound economic sense to do
whatever is required to placate those demanding weather gods. As their
environment degraded due to overfarming these demands would have
seemed to require more and more sacrifice.

It's all just a matter of economics. How many of our global citizens
are daily sacrificed to the gods of "positive GDP growth", "efficient
markets" and "small government"?

The Nazi's never had anything like that rationale.

Regards,
Saul

On Saturday, May 1, 2010, sarbajit roy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Where would one place say the Taj Mahal in the context of the Mughal
> (alternatively Indo-Islamic) civilisation's ascendancy? Or the Eiffel
> Tower in the context of French (alternatively Gallic) civilisation?
>
> Mr Sabloff's observation reminds me of the old saw, "A priest, a
> scientist and a mathematician are travellng on a train through France
> and spot a black cow in the distance. Priest: "Behold God hath colored
> all cows black. Scientist: You're wrong, only some cows are black.
> Mathematician: Somewhere in a field in France there exists at least
> one cow at least one of side of which is black.."
>
> On 4/29/10, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same
>>> grandiosity
>>> applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses.
>>> The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization.
>>
>> Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose
>> specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan
>> civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group
>> where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments
>> of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that
>> civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats,
>> etc.
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
Saul Caganoff
Enterprise IT Architect
Mobile: [phone]
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/scaganoff

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[John Kennison]

Just a note --I've never liked that old saw about the black cow --mathematicians are always working with generalizations. Scientists are the ones who claim to be working strictly with observations.
________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of sarbajit roy [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn

Hi

Where would one place say the Taj Mahal in the context of the Mughal
(alternatively Indo-Islamic) civilisation's ascendancy? Or the Eiffel
Tower in the context of French (alternatively Gallic) civilisation?

Mr Sabloff's observation reminds me of the old saw, "A priest, a
scientist and a mathematician are travellng on a train through France
and spot a black cow in the distance. Priest: "Behold God hath colored
all cows black. Scientist: You're wrong, only some cows are black.
Mathematician: Somewhere in a field in France there exists at least
one cow at least one of side of which is black.."

On 4/29/10, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>>
>> Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same
>> grandiosity
>> applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses.
>> The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization.
>
> Jerry Sabloff, the president of the Santa Fe Institute, whose
> specialty is the archaeology (and thus the life) of everyday Mayan
> civilization, gave a little talk in late December to a small group
> where he mentioned in passing that the great architectural monuments
> of a civilization are nearly always erected early in that
> civilization's ascendancy--the Egyptian pyramids, the Mayan ziggurats,
> etc.

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[Pamela McCorduck]

In my experience, mathematicians tell this joke on themselves.

There's another one they tell:

Two guys in a balloon dip down to a field to ask a farmer where they  
are. The answer comes: You're in a balloon. The one guy says to the  
other, He must be a mathematician. The answer is absolutely correct  
and absolutely useless.


On May 2, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John Kennison wrote:

>
>
> Just a note --I've never liked that old saw about the black cow --
> mathematicians are always working with generalizations. Scientists  
> are the ones who claim to be working strictly with observations.
> ________________________________________


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[John Kennison]

I like the ballon joke better. I once was driving to Montreal and saw there was a ferry from Vermont to New York state. That seemed like fun, and, arguably, would save time.
I think I missed the regular ferry but got to the shore of Lake Champlain by following home-made signs for a ferry. At the shore, the sign said, that if the operator wasn't in
then pull on the string. The string went inside a trailer and soon a guy came out and said he would ferry me for $5. I agreed and drove on what looked like a raft. The car was't tied down, only the brakes restrained it. I thought it might to over the edge a few times, but it didn't. Half way ascross I looked at my map and asked the guy where was the ferry taking me. He looked as if this wasa a difficult question, but finally he said 'To the other side'


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:08 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn

In my experience, mathematicians tell this joke on themselves.

There's another one they tell:

Two guys in a balloon dip down to a field to ask a farmer where they
are. The answer comes: You're in a balloon. The one guy says to the
other, He must be a mathematician. The answer is absolutely correct
and absolutely useless.


On May 2, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John Kennison wrote:

>
>
> Just a note --I've never liked that old saw about the black cow --
> mathematicians are always working with generalizations. Scientists
> are the ones who claim to be working strictly with observations.
> ________________________________________


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[Steve Smith]

Two more anecdotes on the theme of accurate but useless stereotypical behaviour:


While in New England.
    "Have you lived here all of your life?"
    "Not yet"

While in New Zealand
    "Could you give me directions to the Ferry?"
    "Yes"

I like the ballon joke better. I once was driving to Montreal and saw there was a ferry from Vermont to New York state. That seemed like fun, and, arguably, would save time. 
I think I missed the regular ferry but got to the shore of Lake Champlain by following home-made signs for a ferry. At the shore, the sign said, that if the operator wasn't in
then pull on the string. The string went inside a trailer and soon a guy came out and said he would ferry me for $5. I agreed and drove on what looked like a raft. The car was't tied down, only the brakes restrained it. I thought it might to over the edge a few times, but it didn't. Half way ascross I looked at my map and asked the guy where was the ferry taking me. He looked as if this wasa a difficult question, but finally he said 'To the other side'


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck [[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:08 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn

In my experience, mathematicians tell this joke on themselves.

There's another one they tell:

Two guys in a balloon dip down to a field to ask a farmer where they
are. The answer comes: You're in a balloon. The one guy says to the
other, He must be a mathematician. The answer is absolutely correct
and absolutely useless.


On May 2, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John Kennison wrote:

  

Just a note --I've never liked that old saw about the black cow --
mathematicians are always working with generalizations. Scientists
are the ones who claim to be working strictly with observations.
________________________________________
    

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[Robert Holmes]

Yay, it's time for "accurate but useless" jokes. Here's my contribution:

A shepherd was herding his flock in a remote pasture when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced out of the dust cloud towards him. The driver, a young man in a Broni suit, Gucci shoes, Ray Ban sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the shepherd, "If I tell you exactly how many sheep you have in your flock, will you give me one?"

The shepherd looked at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looked at his peacefully grazing flock and calmly answered, "Sure."

The yuppie parked his car, whipped out his notebook and connected it to a cell phone , then he surfed to a NASA page on the internet where he called up a GPS satellite navigation system, scanned the area, and then opened up a database and an Excel spreadsheet with complex formulas. He sent an email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, received a response. Finally, he prints out a 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized printer then turns to the shepherd and says, "You have exactly 1586 sheep."

"That is correct; take one of the sheep." said the shepherd. He watches the young man select one of the animals and bundle it into his car.

Then the shepherd says: " If I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my sheep?"

"OK, why not." answered the young man.

"Clearly, you are a management consultant." said the shepherd.

"That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"

"No guessing required." answers the shepherd. "You turned up here although nobody called you. You want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked, and you don't know crap about my business. Now give me back my dog."

 -- R

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Two more anecdotes on the theme of accurate but useless stereotypical behaviour:


While in New England.
    "Have you lived here all of your life?"
    "Not yet"

While in New Zealand
    "Could you give me directions to the Ferry?"
    "Yes"

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[Victoria Hughes]

LOL

thanks.

On May 2, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:

Yay, it's time for "accurate but useless" jokes. Here's my contribution:

A shepherd was herding his flock in a remote pasture when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced out of the dust cloud towards him. The driver, a young man in a Broni suit, Gucci shoes, Ray Ban sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the shepherd, "If I tell you exactly how many sheep you have in your flock, will you give me one?"

The shepherd looked at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looked at his peacefully grazing flock and calmly answered, "Sure."

The yuppie parked his car, whipped out his notebook and connected it to a cell phone , then he surfed to a NASA page on the internet where he called up a GPS satellite navigation system, scanned the area, and then opened up a database and an Excel spreadsheet with complex formulas. He sent an email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, received a response. Finally, he prints out a 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized printer then turns to the shepherd and says, "You have exactly 1586 sheep."

"That is correct; take one of the sheep." said the shepherd. He watches the young man select one of the animals and bundle it into his car.

Then the shepherd says: " If I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my sheep?"

"OK, why not." answered the young man.

"Clearly, you are a management consultant." said the shepherd.

"That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"

"No guessing required." answers the shepherd. "You turned up here although nobody called you. You want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked, and you don't know crap about my business. Now give me back my dog."

 -- R

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Two more anecdotes on the theme of accurate but useless stereotypical behaviour:


While in New England.
    "Have you lived here all of your life?"
    "Not yet"

While in New Zealand
    "Could you give me directions to the Ferry?"
    "Yes"

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-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

 [hidden email]

Tory Hughes — Artist, Teacher, Author, Consultant

Facebook | Tory Hughes Jewelry+Sculpture

------------------------------------

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