Friam

PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Classic

List

Threaded

54 messages Options

123

thompnickson2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

And quadralaterals aren’t convex? I don’t get it.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Because triangles are convex they are guaranteed to be rendered correctly. Every modern graphics system whether hardware or software is based on using triangles as the basic element.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm not Marcus but in finite element analysis the discretization of a 2 dimensional region is always done with triangles. It's much more flexible than rectangular grids, to oversimplify.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 7:13 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marcus,

Can you explain why the basic unit is a triangle?

Any Peircean would LOVE it.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Check out that WaPost article for the state-of-the-art. (The new Unreal Engine.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Angel Edward <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I vaguely remember plot 3d. No one renders today the way it did. Cray was less than a PC with a decent graphics card.

Ed
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let me revise that a little bit. There was a visualization of the rider's view of a roller coaster ride that ran on a Cray supercomputer. The purpose was to demonstrate the capability and speed of a Lisp-based 3D renderer called Plot-3D or P3D or something similar. Do you know what I'm talking about, Ed?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 5:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks, Frank.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 3:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

You should take it seriously but I'm biased. I don't think PSC let's its supercomputers be used for eye candy. They didn't when I worked there and they were accountable to NSF.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:26 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Phellow Phriammers,
Is this eyecandy, or should I take it seriously?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQutQQiuAI&feature=youtu.be
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

Edward Angel wrote:
> Look at Donna Cox’s site at
> NCSA http://avl.ncsa.illinois.edu/who-we-are/team/donna-cox-director
>
> She’s been doing tornado simulations for over 15 years. We worked with
> her to put the simulation in planetarium dome. It’s much more
> impressive when you put the viewer in the middle of the tornado and
> immersed in it in the planetarium.

Or viewing it inside a 3+sided CAVE with Stereo and head tracking!   It
was also (all) a lot more impressive when it was new... it was a
significant early example of marrying fairly serious data/model Viz and
high-quality (at that time) rendering for proper 3D spaces.

That said, I think this is a worthwhile discussion... though it is one
I've been involved in (on both sides of the presumed contention) for
decades ( think the term Scientific Visualization was coined in the
mid/late 80s?) with limited resolution.

One person's eye-candy is anothers' significant "aid to
intuition/perception/analysis".   Somewhere in between are shades of
this with "communication graphics" falling closer to "eye-candy" and
highly technical diagrams, charts and graphs aiding in detailed analysis
on the other end.   In the middle (though I don't really believe it is a
single dimensional spectrum) are techniques and renderings which are
more useful for things like getting peers up to speed quickly (also
communication but more demanding), to gaining novel (or quick) insight
into obscured mechanisms, or simply conveniences of/for construction
like Gnomonic map projections for navigational charts (so that great
circle routes render as straight lines).

When Hollywood first discovered computer graphics (or when it embraced
it fully by taking over the lion's share of the SIGGRAPH conferences) it
lead to a disservice to it's highly effective use in Eng/Sci.   I have
nothing against high fidelity gaming/FX, it is tres-cool to drop in to
the alternate realities of Tron or Lawnmower Man or Virtuosity or
Battlezone or Riven or Myst or Toy Story (and infinity and beyond!
25-40 years stale here) but the magic of getting past the uncanny valley
is more of a "technical trick" than anything fundamental leading toward
better understanding of "life the universe and everything".

mumble,

- Steve

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

some quads are not... think boomarang-like... I think there is a technical term for that class of quad... also think if a "bowtie", also technically a quad but potentially having "negative area".

On 5/13/20 9:13 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

And quadralaterals aren’t convex? I don’t get it.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Because triangles are convex they are guaranteed to be rendered correctly. Every modern graphics system whether hardware or software is based on using triangles as the basic element.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)                                [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)                                                   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm not Marcus but in finite element analysis the discretization of a 2 dimensional region is always done with triangles. It's much more flexible than rectangular grids, to oversimplify.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 7:13 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

Can you explain why the basic unit is a triangle?

Any Peircean would LOVE it.

n

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Check out that WaPost article for the state-of-the-art.   (The new Unreal Engine.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Angel Edward <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I vaguely remember plot 3d. No one renders today the way it did. Cray was less than a PC with a decent graphics card.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)    [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let me revise that a little bit. There was a visualization of the rider's view of a roller coaster ride that ran on a Cray supercomputer. The purpose was to demonstrate the capability and speed of a Lisp-based 3D renderer called Plot-3D or P3D or something similar. Do you know what I'm talking about, Ed?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 5:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Frank.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 3:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

You should take it seriously but I'm biased. I don't think PSC let's its supercomputers be used for eye candy. They didn't when I worked there and they were accountable to NSF.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:26 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Phellow Phriammers,

Is this eyecandy, or should I take it seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQutQQiuAI&feature=youtu.be

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

thompnickson2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus,

The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 8:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

With a few minutes of digging, the original video can be traced back to a simulation done by http://twister.ou.edu/ who has his publications here http://twister.ou.edu/vita.html#pubs. The video came from a different specialist in visualization, Greg Foss:

https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_images.jsp?cntn_id=134516&org=NSF

Here’s apparently a standard code used to study tornados, there’s a list of users and their publications and the governing equations. https://www2.mmm.ucar.edu/people/bryan/cm1/

Should you take any of this seriously? Well, read the papers and decide. Is it the fact there is some eye candy causing you to doubt that there is science behind it?

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:26 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Dear Phellow Phriammers,

Is this eyecandy, or should I take it seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQutQQiuAI&feature=youtu.be

Edward Angel

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Also even if they are not like bow ties, quadrilaterals need not be flat.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 9:16 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
some quads are not... think boomarang-like... I think there is a technical term for that class of quad... also think if a "bowtie", also technically a quad but potentially having "negative area".

On 5/13/20 9:13 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
And quadralaterals aren’t convex? I don’t get it.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Because triangles are convex they are guaranteed to be rendered correctly. Every modern graphics system whether hardware or software is based on using triangles as the basic element.
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)                                [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)                                                   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm not Marcus but in finite element analysis the discretization of a 2 dimensional region is always done with triangles. It's much more flexible than rectangular grids, to oversimplify.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 7:13 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marcus,

Can you explain why the basic unit is a triangle?

Any Peircean would LOVE it.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Check out that WaPost article for the state-of-the-art.   (The new Unreal Engine.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Angel Edward <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I vaguely remember plot 3d. No one renders today the way it did. Cray was less than a PC with a decent graphics card.

Ed
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)    [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let me revise that a little bit. There was a visualization of the rider's view of a roller coaster ride that ran on a Cray supercomputer. The purpose was to demonstrate the capability and speed of a Lisp-based 3D renderer called Plot-3D or P3D or something similar. Do you know what I'm talking about, Ed?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 5:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks, Frank.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 3:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

You should take it seriously but I'm biased. I don't think PSC let's its supercomputers be used for eye candy. They didn't when I worked there and they were accountable to NSF.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:26 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Phellow Phriammers,
Is this eyecandy, or should I take it seriously?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQutQQiuAI&feature=youtu.be
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I see; I see. Thx/

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:17 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

some quads are not... think boomarang-like... I think there is a technical term for that class of quad... also think if a "bowtie", also technically a quad but potentially having "negative area".

On 5/13/20 9:13 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

And quadralaterals aren’t convex? I don’t get it.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Because triangles are convex they are guaranteed to be rendered correctly. Every modern graphics system whether hardware or software is based on using triangles as the basic element.
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)                                [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell)                                                   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm not Marcus but in finite element analysis the discretization of a 2 dimensional region is always done with triangles. It's much more flexible than rectangular grids, to oversimplify.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 7:13 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marcus,

Can you explain why the basic unit is a triangle?

Any Peircean would LOVE it.

n

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Check out that WaPost article for the state-of-the-art.   (The new Unreal Engine.)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Angel Edward <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I vaguely remember plot 3d. No one renders today the way it did. Cray was less than a PC with a decent graphics card.

Ed
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)    [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let me revise that a little bit. There was a visualization of the rider's view of a roller coaster ride that ran on a Cray supercomputer. The purpose was to demonstrate the capability and speed of a Lisp-based 3D renderer called Plot-3D or P3D or something similar. Do you know what I'm talking about, Ed?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 5:31 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks, Frank.

NIck

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 3:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

You should take it seriously but I'm biased. I don't think PSC let's its supercomputers be used for eye candy. They didn't when I worked there and they were accountable to NSF.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:26 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Phellow Phriammers,
Is this eyecandy, or should I take it seriously?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQutQQiuAI&feature=youtu.be
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

The fluid dynamics model used for that visualization is based on first principles. Many years ago Nick was trying to figure out how tornadoes develop. I told him I thought this was pretty well understood and I asked Droegemeier for a paper. He sent one which I forwarded to Nick. It was full of advanced math.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I think there is a quote from Heinlein along the lines of “Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do.” When do we have to worry about first principles?

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”. As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

Marcus

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Marcus's comment reminds me of Bruce Sherwood's comment that people solve differential equations because they don't have computers.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:40 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”. As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”
Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”
Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank,

I think that was the one that depicted tornadoes as arising from a horizontal barrel roll being bulged upward in the middle and ultimately split into two vortexes, one clockwise one, counter. This idea does explain why sometimes a weak anti-cyclonic tornado often appear next to a main cyclonic one. But the idea did seem kind of rinky-dink to me. You are right, of course, I had no way to visit the math and evaluate it

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”
Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”
Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg. Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Nick writes:

Marcus

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I understand your point but the fact remains that that visualization was based on a numerical model that was, in turn, based on first principles. I can confirm that with Greg Foss but I'm pretty sure it's true.

Both and is better than either or. Another aphorism: whatever works.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:53 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg.    Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”.   As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados.   One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Edward Angel

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

The best known tornado simulation has a small anti-cyclone on the side. The narrator describes it as “a rarely see anit-cyclone.” Having asked many time whether it ever has been seen, the answer seems to be “not yet.” Clearly the one in the visualization is an artifact from an imperfect model.

One other comment. It used to be the case that in computer graphics if something looked OK that was sufficient. That’s no longer true. With the present computer power in GPUs, pretty every special effect you see in a movie is a physically-based simulation. Recent game engines come pretty close to that too.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On May 13, 2020, at 9:44 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,
I think that was the one that depicted tornadoes as arising from a horizontal barrel roll being bulged upward in the middle and ultimately split into two vortexes, one clockwise one, counter. This idea does explain why sometimes a weak anti-cyclonic tornado often appear next to a main cyclonic one. But the idea did seem kind of rinky-dink to me. You are right, of course, I had no way to visit the math and evaluate it

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

The fluid dynamics model used for that visualization is based on first principles. Many years ago Nick was trying to figure out how tornadoes develop. I told him I thought this was pretty well understood and I asked Droegemeier for a paper. He sent one which I forwarded to Nick. It was full of advanced math.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:23 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”
Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”
Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I’m not sure why you are telling me this, as I was the one that bothered to look it up. :-)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Both and is better than either or. Another aphorism: whatever works.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:53 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg.    Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”.   As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados.   One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Yes, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 10:12 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m not sure why you are telling me this, as I was the one that bothered to look it up.   :-)

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

I understand your point but the fact remains that that visualization was based on a numerical model that was, in turn, based on first principles. I can confirm that with Greg Foss but I'm pretty sure it's true.

Both and is better than either or. Another aphorism: whatever works.

F

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 9:53 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg.    Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”.   As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados.   One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

Ed writes:

“One other comment. It used to be the case that in computer graphics if something looked OK that was sufficient. That’s no longer true. With the present computer power in GPUs, pretty every special effect you see in a movie is a physically-based simulation. Recent game engines come pretty close to that too.”

Rather than computing the rigid body dynamics given certain assumptions (like a skeleton), discover them from many observables and then generalize them. This could potentially give more realistic physics, perhaps including mimicry of muscle movements, skin texture and so on.

https://youtu.be/IpwSklQlUhw

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aayushb/Recycle-GAN/

Marcus

Steve Smith

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

On 5/13/20 9:52 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg. Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

My mother was the source (vehicle) of many aphorisms, some of which I found particularly maddening.

"If you can't tell (the difference), it doesn't matter!"

was perhaps the most notable and I suppose an archetypal example of vernacular pragmatism (Nick).

I *think* this discussion (or this subthread) has devolved to suggesting that predictive power is the only use of modeling (and simulation) whilst explanatory power is not (it is just drama?).

It is not my feeling or experience or intuition that the explanatory power (illusion) of deriving things from first principles is unimportant or irrelevant, but I don't know that I have anything but "a strong feeling" to back that up. When I went to college I had a modestly broad command of math and basic science which I found very satisfying as a basis for (thinking I did) understand a lot about the world as it unfolded around me (dust-devils, thunderstorms, motorcycle accidents, auto mechanics, mechanical constructions) but as I learned calculus, I somehow felt like I'd been handed a whole new toolkit... a way to peel back the covers from the myriad equations that had been handed to me with no real explanatory power.

Having the equations of motion had seemed like "enough" until I began to explore their derivations. Most of my peers were in engineering and while they also were learning calculus, they did not seem to have the same fascination... they were much less interested (in my apprehension) in "understanding things" than they were "predicting things" and even prediction was in service to the utility of "building a thing". In physics, each layer of more fundamental theory, no matter how hard or obscure it was, was very satisfying. Again, my engineering peers were puzzled by why I would care about relativity or quantum mechanics when they saw so little (if any) application for it. Of course today, nearly 50 years later, the applications are pervasive in the more advanced engineering applications (electrooptics, materials science, etc.)

I'll be interested to see how (if?) this distinction unfolds with others here. Maybe my mother was right "if you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter".

- Steve

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email] [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”. As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Which email has that parody of Trump attached to it? Very funny.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:29 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 5/13/20 9:52 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Experiment with a modern implementation of generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg.    Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.

My mother was the source (vehicle) of many aphorisms, some of which I found particularly maddening.

"If you can't tell (the difference), it doesn't matter!"

was perhaps the most notable and I suppose an archetypal example of vernacular pragmatism (Nick).

I *think* this discussion (or this subthread) has devolved to suggesting that predictive power is the only use of modeling (and simulation) whilst explanatory power is not (it is just drama?).

It is not my feeling or experience or intuition that the explanatory power (illusion) of deriving things from first principles is unimportant or irrelevant, but I don't know that I have anything but "a strong feeling" to back that up.   When I went to college I had a modestly broad command of math and basic science which I found very satisfying as a basis for (thinking I did) understand a lot about the world as it unfolded around me (dust-devils, thunderstorms, motorcycle accidents, auto mechanics, mechanical constructions) but as I learned calculus, I somehow felt like I'd been handed a whole new toolkit... a way to peel back the covers from the myriad equations that had been handed to me with no real explanatory power.

Having the equations of motion had seemed like "enough" until I began to explore their derivations.   Most of my peers were in engineering and while they also were learning calculus, they did not seem to have the same fascination... they were much less interested (in my apprehension) in "understanding things" than they were "predicting things" and even prediction was in service to the utility of "building a thing".   In physics, each layer of more fundamental theory, no matter how hard or obscure it was, was very satisfying. Again, my engineering peers were puzzled by why I would care about relativity or quantum mechanics when they saw so little (if any) application for it. Of course today, nearly 50 years later, the applications are pervasive in the more advanced engineering applications (electrooptics, materials science, etc.)

I'll be interested to see how (if?) this distinction unfolds with others here.   Maybe my mother was right "if you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter".

- Steve
From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email] [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Old Philosophical Joke:

Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that had never been in contact with the modern world … except for one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of every kind were left by the village on the steps of the monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy.

In the course of the annual correspondence to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get their sunrise on time, who cares?”

I care.

Another old Philosophical Joke:

A man who claimed to be able to fly, announced on his facebook page that he was going to demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his behavior during his “flight”. As he went by each successive balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”

His widow cared.

Your query, Marcus, highlights the difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular kind.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization (2008) [720p] - YouTube

Nick writes:

“The result looks so much like iconic tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one suspects that the video was back constructed from that film, rather than developing organically from the physics.”

Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

123