Open Letter
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Dear local congregation, Is there a chance that any of you would like to join me in sending this letter to the New Mexican, or some version of it? To the New Mexican We are writing to urge all Santa Feans to be sure to vote this year, particularly if you are a recent high-school graduate or are related to one. Our higher-educational systems are under stress, and our elected officials need to know you are paying attention. We are retired college professors and industrial researchers, living in Santa Fe. Every day, we talk to young people as smart and as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these young folks cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent deserves. As more and more of my generation retire from our institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities, our nation will desperately need these talented young people. Please take time to vote and to let your representatives know that you care about education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it. Lemme know. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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The cost of education is going to be unsustainable just like the cost of advanced medical treatments. A crisis is coming. From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> Dear local congregation, Is there a chance that any of you would like to join me in sending this letter to the New Mexican, or some version of it?
To the New Mexican We are writing to urge all Santa Feans to be sure to vote this year, particularly if you are a recent high-school graduate or are related to one. Our higher-educational systems
are under stress, and our elected officials need to know you are paying attention. We are retired college professors and industrial researchers, living in Santa Fe. Every day, we talk to young people as smart and as dedicated to learning as our best research
students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these young folks cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their
talent deserves. As more and more of my generation retire from our institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities, our nation will desperately need these talented young people. Please take time to vote and to let your representatives know
that you care about education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.
Lemme know. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
About to take a nap before going to a Zumba class. Several class mates have masters, but are still working at least 2 jobs. One's husband and her with 3 jobs are: barily scraping by and still trying to keep a Zumba club glued together. Someone needs to say it: screw minumum wage these days. That's nuts! 3 jobs, and can scrapiing by. I think he on top of working in Human Services also has a part time job in IT. I have no idea where at though. If she's at class today I might ask. I argue that it's a combination of issues Education clearly gets people only sofar. I've said to many times I suspect: How the hell are you to get the inane experience companies or goverment want without having it that's the litteral defination of a catch22.I say their is a fundimental issue when even with masters degrees it's all to common issue: I want to lead but etc. If I understand right the teacher that I help now her and her SO have. Masters are also scraping by. I think she works both at a gallery and does social media stuff. He makes ocean maps for tecloo's at the momen, he also tused to study climate changes and something to do with ocean levels. . even with two 45-50k a year earners "Dude are you kidding me I can't afford rent here! it's insane! 3k a month to live in the ghetto? " what I'm getting at Is I agree with nick something has to change, IMO a part of that something is a reality check to the powers that be. FWIW nick a ton of data backs up this issue. Litterally no one can afford to live on 40k a year. Being able to be in a position of leadership if someone wants it,sadly takes a back seat if your Maslow's are fucked. I am agreeing with nick btw: being stuck in service because of a ton of job pipeline issues aka sheer arogance and greed is a problem.. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:19 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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On the `leadership’ thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-gjf4WnkiI “Why not put everyone into the 1%?” ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Hi Marcus, I have never thought about it the way you state it. It seems, off the top of my head, that they are very different conflicts of interest. Let’s say the money runs out in the medical world. There is rationing. A decision has to be made as to whether an 81 year old former college professor should be given a second bypass or 10 young women be given adequate healthcare for their troubled pregnancies. It’s an unfortunate decision to have to make, but not a difficult one. I always thought “death panels” was one of the great political ideas of all time, assuming that all suicides would be voluntary and the means for a peaceful death provided. Now that you mention it, I do see some parallels with higher education. We’ve all known people who will take all the higher education they can get and don’t get that much marginal benefit from it. I suppose these folks are like the multiple, multiple bypass patient. Also, I see the parallel that rising costs for all are being driven largely by catering to the wealthy. But education, to a very large degree and in the very long run, pays for itself in economic benefits to the educated, themselves, and to the communities where they live; medicine, by and large, does not. We pay for education because it enriches our lives; pregnant women aside, we pay for medicine mostly because it preserves and extends life. So, while I can see a crisis in medicine between our values about the preservation and extension of life and the costs of medicine, it’s harder to see a crisis between the short term losses incurred in paying for higher education and the long term benefits to society in fostering it. It’s a crisis only if we are unwilling to invest in our common future. Thanks, Marcus, for giving me the opportunity to think this through. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels The cost of education is going to be unsustainable just like the cost of advanced medical treatments. A crisis is coming. From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> Dear local congregation, Is there a chance that any of you would like to join me in sending this letter to the New Mexican, or some version of it? To the New Mexican We are writing to urge all Santa Feans to be sure to vote this year, particularly if you are a recent high-school graduate or are related to one. Our higher-educational systems are under stress, and our elected officials need to know you are paying attention. We are retired college professors and industrial researchers, living in Santa Fe. Every day, we talk to young people as smart and as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these young folks cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent deserves. As more and more of my generation retire from our institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities, our nation will desperately need these talented young people. Please take time to vote and to let your representatives know that you care about education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it. Lemme know. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore
“…Maslow’s are fucked” is pure poetry, Gil. Indeed, our Maslows are fucked. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore About to take a nap before going to a Zumba class. Several class mates have masters, but are still working at least 2 jobs. One's husband and her with 3 jobs are: barily scraping by and still trying to keep a Zumba club glued together. Someone needs to say it: screw minumum wage these days. That's nuts! 3 jobs, and can scrapiing by. I think he on top of working in Human Services also has a part time job in IT. I have no idea where at though. If she's at class today I might ask. I argue that it's a combination of issues Education clearly gets people only sofar. I've said to many times I suspect: How the hell are you to get the inane experience companies or goverment want without having it that's the litteral defination of a catch22.I say their is a fundimental issue when even with masters degrees it's all to common issue: I want to lead but etc. If I understand right the teacher that I help now her and her SO have. Masters are also scraping by. I think she works both at a gallery and does social media stuff. He makes ocean maps for tecloo's at the momen, he also tused to study climate changes and something to do with ocean levels. . even with two 45-50k a year earners "Dude are you kidding me I can't afford rent here! it's insane! 3k a month to live in the ghetto? " what I'm getting at Is I agree with nick something has to change, IMO a part of that something is a reality check to the powers that be. FWIW nick a ton of data backs up this issue. Litterally no one can afford to live on 40k a year. Being able to be in a position of leadership if someone wants it,sadly takes a back seat if your Maslow's are fucked. I am agreeing with nick btw: being stuck in service because of a ton of job pipeline issues aka sheer arogance and greed is a problem.. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:19 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I swore to myself I'd stay quiet. But because I'm obsessed with the neoreaction (https://www.thesociologicalreview.com/blog/on-neoreaction.html), I've failed.
If we buy the premise put forth by "bias bubbles" ("echo chambers", "safe zones", "political correctness", whatever your favorite postmodernist bogeyman), then you might see why the long term benefits of higher education are not as *obvious* as the educated might think they are. And even in the subjects most people usually agree are very solid educational investments (e.g. math or computer science), there are plenty of people who seem to think the way we educate those people is fundamentally flawed. So, while I'm with you in the gist of it, I think education could do with a massive disruption like those we see in transportation (Lyft and Uber) and real estate (AirBnB). Renee' and I have waxed and waned in the same ongoing argument for our entire relationship. When she wants to learn something, her 1st thought is "school" or "take a class". (She *just* got her final grades and will receive her M.S. in December!) When I want to learn something, I simply start digging. Both are flawed in various ways, of course. It's a matter of style, purpose, and interest. But there has to be a hyper-space of middle ground with plenty of room for innovation if we can shatter it open appropriately. Decentralization and co-creative participation are fundamental themes of the 21st century. The point is even more oblique when we consider voting. A responsible voter educates themselves before voting. But only an educated person would understand what voting means (representation, local vs. federal elections, gerrymandering, etc.) and that (how and why) it matters in the 1st place. A tiny minority yell about how important it is to vote, but turnout is reliably low (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/even-if-turnout-among-young-people-is-higher-itll-probably-still-be-low/). People are either too ignorant to vote ... or not voting enough to get an education. Or, perhaps the two are as unrelated as the uneducated non-voters think they are? >8^D On 10/22/18 2:22 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So, while I can see a crisis in medicine between our values about the preservation and extension of life and the costs of medicine, it’s harder to see a /crisis /between the short term losses incurred in paying for higher education and the long term benefits to society in fostering it. It’s a crisis only if we are unwilling to invest in our common future. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nick writes: “But education, to a very large degree and in the very long run, pays for itself in economic benefits to the educated, themselves, and to the communities where they live; medicine, by and large, does not.” Holding a license or being in a labor union or cartel also can carry economic benefits. Because education is mostly pursued for that reason (and out of fear), and because natural variation in IQ is wider than what education can influence,
and because intelligence is not the same as the opportunity to get an education, it leads to the situation where the more-intelligent-but-uneducated may be ruled by the less-intelligent-but-educated. Among all the kinds of injustices in the world, and all
the kinds of abuses of power, this is not a huge one, but universities certainly do have a motive to make education appear to be as valuable as possible. One way to do that is to make sure its absence is perceived as dangerous and that access to it is scarce
and expensive. It seems to me medicine (defined broadly) will be lot more valuable in the not so distant future: Suppose the genetic determinants of short-term memory or spatial reasoning or emotional intelligence could be engineered into a child?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/those-superhumans-of-the-future-stephen-hawking-feared-look-around/2018/10/19/e7bcafc6-d3bd-11e8-b2d2-f397227b43f0_story.html Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
Glen,
It has come to the point where your silence would be a comment louder than anything you might say, so I guess you are stuck with making a comment, one way or the other. Your comment puts me in mind of that wisest of movies, The Wizard of Oz, in which the Wizard says: "I cannot give you a brain, but I can give you a degree!" Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:01 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter I swore to myself I'd stay quiet. But because I'm obsessed with the neoreaction (https://www.thesociologicalreview.com/blog/on-neoreaction.html), I've failed. If we buy the premise put forth by "bias bubbles" ("echo chambers", "safe zones", "political correctness", whatever your favorite postmodernist bogeyman), then you might see why the long term benefits of higher education are not as *obvious* as the educated might think they are. And even in the subjects most people usually agree are very solid educational investments (e.g. math or computer science), there are plenty of people who seem to think the way we educate those people is fundamentally flawed. So, while I'm with you in the gist of it, I think education could do with a massive disruption like those we see in transportation (Lyft and Uber) and real estate (AirBnB). Renee' and I have waxed and waned in the same ongoing argument for our entire relationship. When she wants to learn something, her 1st thought is "school" or "take a class". (She *just* got her final grades and will receive her M.S. in December!) When I want to learn something, I simply start digging. Both are flawed in various ways, of course. It's a matter of style, purpose, and interest. But there has to be a hyper-space of middle ground with plenty of room for innovation if we can shatter it open appropriately. Decentralization and co-creative participation are fundamental themes of the 21st century. The point is even more oblique when we consider voting. A responsible voter educates themselves before voting. But only an educated person would understand what voting means (representation, local vs. federal elections, gerrymandering, etc.) and that (how and why) it matters in the 1st place. A tiny minority yell about how important it is to vote, but turnout is reliably low (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/even-if-turnout-among-young-people-is-higher-itll-probably-still-be-low/). People are either too ignorant to vote ... or not voting enough to get an education. Or, perhaps the two are as unrelated as the uneducated non-voters think they are? >8^D On 10/22/18 2:22 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So, while I can see a crisis in medicine between our values about the > preservation and extension of life and the costs of medicine, it’s harder to see a /crisis /between the short term losses incurred in paying for higher education and the long term benefits to society in fostering it. It’s a crisis only if we are unwilling to invest in our common future. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
You are right, marcus. That’s a world I didn’t consider, and one, thankfully, I won’t have to live in. All the best, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Nick writes: “But education, to a very large degree and in the very long run, pays for itself in economic benefits to the educated, themselves, and to the communities where they live; medicine, by and large, does not.” Holding a license or being in a labor union or cartel also can carry economic benefits. Because education is mostly pursued for that reason (and out of fear), and because natural variation in IQ is wider than what education can influence, and because intelligence is not the same as the opportunity to get an education, it leads to the situation where the more-intelligent-but-uneducated may be ruled by the less-intelligent-but-educated. Among all the kinds of injustices in the world, and all the kinds of abuses of power, this is not a huge one, but universities certainly do have a motive to make education appear to be as valuable as possible. One way to do that is to make sure its absence is perceived as dangerous and that access to it is scarce and expensive. It seems to me medicine (defined broadly) will be lot more valuable in the not so distant future: Suppose the genetic determinants of short-term memory or spatial reasoning or emotional intelligence could be engineered into a child? Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:17:07 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter You are right, marcus. That’s a world I didn’t consider, and one, thankfully, I won’t have to live in.
All the best,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Marcus Daniels
Nick writes:
“But education, to a very large degree and in the very long run, pays for itself in economic benefits to the educated, themselves, and to the communities where they live; medicine, by and large, does not.”
Holding a license or being in a labor union or cartel also can carry economic benefits. Because education is mostly pursued for that reason (and out of fear), and because natural variation in IQ is wider than what education can influence, and because intelligence is not the same as the opportunity to get an education, it leads to the situation where the more-intelligent-but-uneducated may be ruled by the less-intelligent-but-educated. Among all the kinds of injustices in the world, and all the kinds of abuses of power, this is not a huge one, but universities certainly do have a motive to make education appear to be as valuable as possible. One way to do that is to make sure its absence is perceived as dangerous and that access to it is scarce and expensive.
It seems to me medicine (defined broadly) will be lot more valuable in the not so distant future: Suppose the genetic determinants of short-term memory or spatial reasoning or emotional intelligence could be engineered into a child?
Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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