Friam

OK. That's funny.

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gepr

OK. That's funny.

Trump’s New Ad Is Amazing
https://thebulwark.com/trumps-new-ad-is-amazing/

We can only dream that Trump will be indicted and tried for treason. It's interesting to speculate whether he'll seek asylum in Russia. Snowden seems to be OK, but not thriving:

https://www.wired.com/story/the-age-of-mass-surveillance-will-not-last-forever/

Steven Seagal and Gérard Depardieu are probably doing better. I can't help but wonder how Trump would fare.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

jon zingale

Re: OK. That's funny.

Wow, it occurs to me that forming a D&D like campaign, set in the modern
world, where the player characters are an adventuring party formed of
Snowden (wizard), Depardieu (bard), and Seagal (barbarian) would be amazing!

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gepr

Re: OK. That's funny.

Ha! That sounds more like an evil Boss in a video game ... one where you try to kill them 100 times and when you finally do, you leap out of your chair and break your headset because you're so excited.

On 8/4/20 9:29 AM, jon zingale wrote:
> Wow, it occurs to me that forming a D&D like campaign, set in the modern
> world, where the player characters are an adventuring party formed of
> Snowden (wizard), Depardieu (bard), and Seagal (barbarian) would be amazing!

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

jon zingale

Re: OK. That's funny.

During the 2016 election, I tried to convince some programmer friends to help
me make an android game in Unity. The premise was to be a 1 level rip off of
the Jurassic Park video game from the 90s. The main character would throw
bottles of suntan lotion at a T-rex with Trump's head. Trump's face would
progressively get more and more orange. Eventually, his blonde toupee would
fall to the ground and try to attack the main character, like a scurrying
rat. Winning the game would mean defeating the toupee and the Trump-rex, and
doing so would take the player to a game over screen with a laughing Hillary
Clinton with Devil horns, and text above claiming that "You Still Lose".

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thompnickson2

Re: OK. That's funny.

That's funny, too.

Is there a market for "niche-games" that pop up under particular social
circumstances are are gone in a few months but make a bunch of money?
Obviously, they would have to be slight modifications on some platform, you
know "Angry McConnells" or something. Could you sell such a thing to Act
Blue?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 11:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

During the 2016 election, I tried to convince some programmer friends to
help me make an android game in Unity. The premise was to be a 1 level rip
off of the Jurassic Park video game from the 90s. The main character would
throw bottles of suntan lotion at a T-rex with Trump's head. Trump's face
would progressively get more and more orange. Eventually, his blonde toupee
would fall to the ground and try to attack the main character, like a
scurrying rat. Winning the game would mean defeating the toupee and the
Trump-rex, and doing so would take the player to a game over screen with a
laughing Hillary Clinton with Devil horns, and text above claiming that "You
Still Lose".

--
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jon zingale

Re: OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

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Steve Smith

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick/Jon -

There IS a market for semi-hand-crafted custom "bobble head dolls" which might suggest a precedent...

https://www.etsy.com/hk-en/listing/245733478/custom-bobblehead-dolls-personalized

Most likely, the "niche game" would really have to be no more than a custom "skin" for a standard game. Reminds me of an anecdote from early agent-simulation at LANL when we did a small exploratory project with the Australian Government to demonstrate how agent models could be used for their environmental studies. They "reskinned" a military simulation visualization, removing vehicles and replacing the infantry with kangaroos and wombats or something... but everyone was shocked when at some point the kangaroos started shooting at an observation aircraft.

I also remember with some fascination how the old pinball games were significantly the same with a variety of different graphics applied to the arena area, the scoreboard and the body. Even when the mechanisms varied, they were somewhat modular mix-n-match components of bumpers, flippers, gates...

I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few open-source (on top of Unity?) game platforms that could be reskinned on-demand as suggested here. The 2D Mario-Kong franchise seems like it would lend itself to simple re-skinning with different graphics.

As I remember it, Dave Pape (UIUC) designed the VR "game" Crayoland for the CAVE with this in mind... allowing/encouraging kids and other enthusiasts to draw up their own graphical elements on paper, scan them in and have the immersive environment present with *your* version of landscape, trees, cabin, pond, bees, etc. http://resumbrae.com/d/Crayoland . I think, however, his reference implementation of crayon art was so compelling, nobody was inclined to replace it with their own!

We should be careful lest our friend Doctor Strangelove reskins our Friday Zoom calls with his own representations of us.

- Smithereens

That's funny, too. 

Is there a market for "niche-games" that pop up under particular social
circumstances are are gone in a few months but make a bunch of money?
Obviously, they would have to be slight modifications on some platform, you
know "Angry McConnells" or something.   Could you sell such a thing to Act
Blue?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 11:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

During the 2016 election, I tried to convince some programmer friends to
help me make an android game in Unity. The premise was to be a 1 level rip
off of the Jurassic Park video game from the 90s. The main character would
throw bottles of suntan lotion at a T-rex with Trump's head. Trump's face
would progressively get more and more orange. Eventually, his blonde toupee
would fall to the ground and try to attack the main character, like a
scurrying rat. Winning the game would mean defeating the toupee and the
Trump-rex, and doing so would take the player to a game over screen with a
laughing Hillary Clinton with Devil horns, and text above claiming that "You
Still Lose".



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jon zingale

Re: OK. That's funny.

Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: OK. That's funny.

My 8 year old grandson seems to keep current with the latest trends in games somehow. I think Youtube Is involved. His latest obsession is Garry's Mod or GMod. The graphics are spectacular. I wonder if it supports different skins. I wonder what it's a mod of.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 1:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.

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Steve Smith

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.

Be careful what you ask for!

Tom Johnson's avatar photo on Zoom was good enough for this...

This should make everyone more uncomfortable on FriamZoom in the future?

I'm now imagining Claymation-style transcripts of VirtualFriam being set in a virtual St. John's coffeeshop....

CrazyTalk!

Tom Johnson

Re: OK. That's funny.

Gee, thanks Steve. I think.

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:03 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.
Be careful what you ask for!

Tom Johnson's avatar photo on Zoom was good enough for this...

This should make everyone more uncomfortable on FriamZoom in the future?

I'm now imagining Claymation-style transcripts of VirtualFriam being set in a virtual St. John's coffeeshop....

CrazyTalk!
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Alexander Rasmus

Re: OK. That's funny.

Frank,

Garry's Mod came out in 2004. It is roughly speaking a mod of half-life 2, and it allows reskinning.

Best,

Rasmus

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:08 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Gee, thanks Steve. I think.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:03 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.
Be careful what you ask for!

Tom Johnson's avatar photo on Zoom was good enough for this...

This should make everyone more uncomfortable on FriamZoom in the future?

I'm now imagining Claymation-style transcripts of VirtualFriam being set in a virtual St. John's coffeeshop....

CrazyTalk!
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: OK. That's funny.

Wow. I thought it was new. It was new to me. Thanks, R.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 2:58 PM Alexander Rasmus <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

Garry's Mod came out in 2004. It is roughly speaking a mod of half-life 2, and it allows reskinning.

Best,
Rasmus
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:08 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Gee, thanks Steve. I think.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:03 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve,

Amazing! In the early days of crack codes for Doom and Quake, I would reskin
my fps's and loved designing my own environments to play friends. I had
never thought to use kangaroos, though :) The Kong-Mario 2D would be a
wonderful choice for the trump game. As far as the bobbleheads, now I kind
of want a Jon Zingale bobble head doll.
Be careful what you ask for!

Tom Johnson's avatar photo on Zoom was good enough for this...

This should make everyone more uncomfortable on FriamZoom in the future?

I'm now imagining Claymation-style transcripts of VirtualFriam being set in a virtual St. John's coffeeshop....

CrazyTalk!
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thompnickson2

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Could each "shot" be a penny given to the Biden campaign?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

--
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cody dooderson

Re: OK. That's funny.

Could one level be a tea party level? Maybe Glenn Beck could be the Mad Hatter?

Cody Smith

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Could each "shot" be a penny given to the Biden campaign?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Steve Smith

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -

All video-game/bobblehead tangents aside, this was a fascinating complementary pair of links.

I didn't fully verify your Bulwark link, but my first impulse was to think it was an Onion or Borowitz article. Fascinating that absurd things like this can go right past us in the torrent of nonsense that this administration has brought to us. Lost in the cacophany of dog-whistles, as it were?

Interesting juxtaposition of Trump, Seagal, Depardieu (Zherar Depardyo!) and Snowden... among other things, both Seagal and Depardieu's movies have been put on a banned list in Ukraine, and I'd guess Trump is not a very welcome person there either. I don't know what they feel about Snowden... he's more likely to be a hero than antihero there, in spite Russia being his bolt-hole location?

These links remind me of several of the other frayed threads here... you referenced yet another previous thread discussing "means of production" and whether I acquiesced openly to your grumbling about that at the time, it did set me on a different tangent internally.

It also juxtaposes with the various lines of discussion around self-organization and hierarchical systems. Many of us think first of political power structures when we think hierarchy. To the extent that these systems maintain their own coherence through a certain amount of top-down control (i.e. exercise of authority) we tend to associate hierarchies as "top-down" systems, but I think that is somewhat of an illusion, or an edge case among the many examples of hierarchy in self-organized systems.

Heterarchy and holarchy come to mind, as does the generic poset.

Snowden's rhetoric, which I generally approve/agree-with, includes an "othering" of gub'mint and corporations that doesn't seem to overtly take into account that both of these are self-organized, emergent structures, even if from an oft-individual point of view they seem antithetical to the good of the individual.

mumble,

- Steve

Trump’s New Ad Is Amazing
https://thebulwark.com/trumps-new-ad-is-amazing/

We can only dream that Trump will be indicted and tried for treason. It's interesting to speculate whether he'll seek asylum in Russia. Snowden seems to be OK, but not thriving:

https://www.wired.com/story/the-age-of-mass-surveillance-will-not-last-forever/

Steven Seagal and Gérard Depardieu are probably doing better. I can't help but wonder how Trump would fare.

Steve Smith

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by cody dooderson

This discussion of alternate skinning and in particular the Mad Hatter's Tea Party triggers:

I am just now (re)visiting Robert Heinlein by reading his posthumous "fork" of his classic Number of the Beast, Pursuit of the Pankera. The PotP was apparently pulled together with funding from a Kickstarter! In fact it is more likely that NotB is the "fork" since the PotP material was apparently complete by 1977 and NOTB was published in 1980. As appropriate (maybe even somehow intended?) the NotB and PotP diverge about 20% into the material which is armatured around the conceit of the protaganist having invented a "continua" device capable of "sideslipping" across the (6^6)^6 ${\displaystyle (6^{6})^{6}(6^6jjj$ or ~10^27 members of the multiverse (not 6^6^6 or ~10 followed by 1M 0s $6^{6^{6}}$ )

It is suggested that this represents somehow the countable but huge continua of possible worlds that the human imagination is capable of creating, and *therefore* includes myriad variants on those described in various bits of classic literature... including notable "worlds" such as Barsoom, Oz, and the Red Queen's domain other-side of the looking glass. A dual, perhaps, of Borges' "Library of Babel", related to his "Garden of Forking Paths", each applying an allegorical treatment to the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. This also is nicely alluded to with Jasper Fforde's protaganist Thursday Next who is a "literary detective" pursuing crimes in the interstices of the literary multiverse where all of the characters (and settings) from literature live and go about "normal lives" while they are not busy appearing in their various novels.

I'm finding Heinlein's preachy characters and prose excruciatingly painful... something I had a hint of in my youth when he was inspiring me toward his human-chauvanist (and confoundingly misogynistic, in spite of some very inspired female protaganists) Libertarian views... but I'm slogging through it anyway, a bit of a visit to my misspent youth and perhaps some stubborn attempt to be sure I've read all of his published works. It is somewhat useful for me as I try to make sense of the current (and all-time?) Right continuum (whackadoodle to centrist)... a revisiting to my own roots in such I suppose. I am left to wonder if Heinlein in his relative (or disturbed?) genius might tell entirely different stories if he understood the (unintended/unexpected) consequences of the manifest hubris of our human-chauvanist culture/industry/economy as it unfolded toward the end of his life into the present?

ramble,

- Steve

On 8/4/20 4:57 PM, cody dooderson wrote:

Could one level be a tea party level? Maybe Glenn Beck could be the Mad Hatter?

Cody Smith

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Could each "shot" be a penny given to the Biden campaign?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

--
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: OK. That's funny.

I am unfamiliar with almost all your allusions with the exception of "El Jardín de los Senderos que se Bifurcan" which I read in Spanish class many years ago.

Are the rest of you readers familiar with NotP, etc.?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 9:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

This discussion of alternate skinning and in particular the Mad Hatter's Tea Party triggers:

I am just now (re)visiting Robert Heinlein by reading his posthumous "fork" of his classic Number of the Beast, Pursuit of the Pankera. The PotP was apparently pulled together with funding from a Kickstarter! In fact it is more likely that NotB is the "fork" since the PotP material was apparently complete by 1977 and NOTB was published in 1980. As appropriate (maybe even somehow intended?) the NotB and PotP diverge about 20% into the material which is armatured around the conceit of the protaganist having invented a "continua" device capable of "sideslipping" across the (6^6)^6 or ~10^27 members of the multiverse (not 6^6^6 or ~10 followed by 1M 0s {\displaystyle 6^{6^{6}}})

It is suggested that this represents somehow the countable but huge continua of possible worlds that the human imagination is capable of creating, and *therefore* includes myriad variants on those described in various bits of classic literature... including notable "worlds" such as Barsoom, Oz, and the Red Queen's domain other-side of the looking glass. A dual, perhaps, of Borges' "Library of Babel", related to his "Garden of Forking Paths", each applying an allegorical treatment to the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. This also is nicely alluded to with Jasper Fforde's protaganist Thursday Next who is a "literary detective" pursuing crimes in the interstices of the literary multiverse where all of the characters (and settings) from literature live and go about "normal lives" while they are not busy appearing in their various novels.

I'm finding Heinlein's preachy characters and prose excruciatingly painful... something I had a hint of in my youth when he was inspiring me toward his human-chauvanist (and confoundingly misogynistic, in spite of some very inspired female protaganists) Libertarian views... but I'm slogging through it anyway, a bit of a visit to my misspent youth and perhaps some stubborn attempt to be sure I've read all of his published works. It is somewhat useful for me as I try to make sense of the current (and all-time?) Right continuum (whackadoodle to centrist)... a revisiting to my own roots in such I suppose. I am left to wonder if Heinlein in his relative (or disturbed?) genius might tell entirely different stories if he understood the (unintended/unexpected) consequences of the manifest hubris of our human-chauvanist culture/industry/economy as it unfolded toward the end of his life into the present?

ramble,

- Steve

On 8/4/20 4:57 PM, cody dooderson wrote:
Could one level be a tea party level? Maybe Glenn Beck could be the Mad Hatter?

Cody Smith

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Could each "shot" be a penny given to the Biden campaign?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Gillian Densmore

Re: OK. That's funny.

only 99c a download? you meen a trial then 5dollars to download but 15 a month for premium features and more inventory space right?

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:56 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am unfamiliar with almost all your allusions with the exception of "El Jardín de los Senderos que se Bifurcan" which I read in Spanish class many years ago.

Are the rest of you readers familiar with NotP, etc.?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 9:25 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
This discussion of alternate skinning and in particular the Mad Hatter's Tea Party triggers:

I am just now (re)visiting Robert Heinlein by reading his posthumous "fork" of his classic Number of the Beast, Pursuit of the Pankera. The PotP was apparently pulled together with funding from a Kickstarter! In fact it is more likely that NotB is the "fork" since the PotP material was apparently complete by 1977 and NOTB was published in 1980. As appropriate (maybe even somehow intended?) the NotB and PotP diverge about 20% into the material which is armatured around the conceit of the protaganist having invented a "continua" device capable of "sideslipping" across the (6^6)^6 or ~10^27 members of the multiverse (not 6^6^6 or ~10 followed by 1M 0s {\displaystyle 6^{6^{6}}})

It is suggested that this represents somehow the countable but huge continua of possible worlds that the human imagination is capable of creating, and *therefore* includes myriad variants on those described in various bits of classic literature... including notable "worlds" such as Barsoom, Oz, and the Red Queen's domain other-side of the looking glass. A dual, perhaps, of Borges' "Library of Babel", related to his "Garden of Forking Paths", each applying an allegorical treatment to the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. This also is nicely alluded to with Jasper Fforde's protaganist Thursday Next who is a "literary detective" pursuing crimes in the interstices of the literary multiverse where all of the characters (and settings) from literature live and go about "normal lives" while they are not busy appearing in their various novels.

I'm finding Heinlein's preachy characters and prose excruciatingly painful... something I had a hint of in my youth when he was inspiring me toward his human-chauvanist (and confoundingly misogynistic, in spite of some very inspired female protaganists) Libertarian views... but I'm slogging through it anyway, a bit of a visit to my misspent youth and perhaps some stubborn attempt to be sure I've read all of his published works. It is somewhat useful for me as I try to make sense of the current (and all-time?) Right continuum (whackadoodle to centrist)... a revisiting to my own roots in such I suppose. I am left to wonder if Heinlein in his relative (or disturbed?) genius might tell entirely different stories if he understood the (unintended/unexpected) consequences of the manifest hubris of our human-chauvanist culture/industry/economy as it unfolded toward the end of his life into the present?

ramble,

- Steve

On 8/4/20 4:57 PM, cody dooderson wrote:
Could one level be a tea party level? Maybe Glenn Beck could be the Mad Hatter?

Cody Smith

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Could each "shot" be a penny given to the Biden campaign?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OK. That's funny.

Nick, you have just outlined the dream. The hope was to sell these at 99
cents per download. The market for such disposable distractions appears to
be firmly established, and potentially profitable. Further, to pull a
variant of a Moby, redirecting the profits to one campaign or another could
potentially make a change.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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gepr

Re: OK. That's funny.

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I didn't verify Last's claims either. But it's not the truth or falsity of it that matters so much as it *triggers* in me an emotional response (the hope that Trump loses, is indicted, and maybe seeks asylum in Russia to wallow in rotten offal like Seagal and Depardieu). That's the mechanism of fake news, even if the news is not fake.

Snowden is a different story. I'm torn.

I generally like your gist that [hol|hier|heter]archy is not a strict disjunction between top-down, bottom-up, or middle-out, though I almost always argue for middle-out ... or, at least, start looking where your focus is the best. In that sense, diffusion limited aggregation strikes me as the best constructive algorithm for the *-archies. I don't *think* I agree that posets belong in that category, though. They seem a bit like abstractions, much like my rejection of Jon's goal-function construct. The accidental, stigmergic, accumulation of the *-archy can be optimized into a poset. But I don't think arose as a poset ... but I'm not sure of that. There's something akin to canalization in posets ... path of least resistance, historical-but-necessary dependence on past state.

But the idea that corporations are self-organized is dissonant. Keeping my (tiny) company going all these years (we turn 20 next year!) has been anything *but* self-organized ... or even organized at all. 8^D It's very much an extension of my will power, from the state of OR trying to fine me $60k for claiming my out-of-state contractors were actually employees, to having years long negotiations collapse because we (apparently) don't use "standard accounting procedures", it's an *intentional* act at every turn.

Now, a behemoth like Google or Bechtel might have some self-organizing elements somewhere in the middle scale, where bureacracy meets bureaucracy in the same corporation. But even there, I'm skeptical. It definitely has that stigmergic accumulation. But intention/will is ubiquitous in such beasts so that it doesn't feel like what we mean by "self-organization".

On 8/4/20 8:24 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

> I didn't fully verify your Bulwark link, but my first impulse was to think it was an Onion <https://www.theonion.com/> or Borowitz <https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report> article. Fascinating that absurd things like this can go right past us in the torrent of nonsense that this administration has brought to us. Lost in the cacophany of dog-whistles, as it were?
>
> Interesting juxtaposition of Trump, Seagal, Depardieu (/Zherar Depardyo!) /and Snowden...    among other things, both Seagal and Depardieu's movies have been put on a banned list in Ukraine <https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/02/19/ukraine-bans-movies-starring-zelenskiy-seagal-depardieu-over-national-security-a69342>, and I'd guess Trump is not a very welcome person there either.   I don't know what they feel about Snowden... he's more likely to be a hero than antihero there, in spite Russia being his bolt-hole location?
> <https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/02/19/ukraine-bans-movies-starring-zelenskiy-seagal-depardieu-over-national-security-a69342>
>
> These links remind me of several of the other frayed threads here... you referenced yet another previous thread discussing "means of production" and whether I acquiesced openly to your grumbling about that at the time, it did set me on a different tangent internally.
>
> It also juxtaposes with the various lines of discussion around self-organization and hierarchical systems.   Many of us think first of political power structures when we think hierarchy.   To the extent that these systems maintain their own coherence through a certain amount of top-down control (i.e. exercise of authority) we tend to associate hierarchies as "top-down" systems, but I think that is somewhat of an illusion, or an edge case among the many examples of hierarchy in self-organized systems.
>
> Heterarchy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterarchy> and holarchy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holarchy> come to mind, as does the generic poset <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set>.
>
> Snowden's rhetoric, which I generally approve/agree-with, includes an "othering" of gub'mint and corporations that doesn't seem to overtly take into account that both of these are self-organized, emergent structures, even if from an oft-individual point of view they seem antithetical to the good of the individual.

--
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123