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Personally, I think all of human science was entangled into the brains of lucky humans by an 10,000 year old Octopus in the seas of Europa. Her name is Pauly.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 2:29 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf Ah, Marcus. I can see already that you are afflicted with duonormative thinking. n Nick Thompson [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 3:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf Whether it is Shalizi's criticism of Wolfram or `deconstruction' of the scientific community, my reaction is that the universe doesn't give a damn how humans struggle in groups or individually to understand, and whether credit assignment is fair or not. How an insight was gained is what matters -- what was effectively the learning algorithm in use and the evidence at the time that led to the model -- not who happened to experience it or their preferred pronouns. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:51 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf Just had a very strange physiological experience. Last evening when this came in, I read a few pages. Since it is all irony, snark, and preening, I assumed it is some flavor of post-modernism. Spent 1-2mins reading the abstract that says it invokes Bohr, and violates (as nearly as one can tell) whatever Bohr actually thought. i.e., to shit on the modern as a declaration of disrespect toward it, which would be the one defining property of Pomo. Then I tried to read the first paragraph of the wikipedia page Glen sent. Had this strange sense of dizziness and disintegration, which made me wonder if I had had some kind of localized stroke or siezure. Stopped reading the wikipedia page, and it all vanished immediately. This stuff really works! Eric > On Apr 30, 2021, at 12:45 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Though I can't parse Barad, herself, I do like agential realism: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agential_realism > > And this criticism seems useful: > > Barad, Bohr, and quantum mechanics > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11229-021-03160-1 > > On 4/29/21 3:31 AM, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> >> > > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm > an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,OBJnaXtA2fUwlA805VU2Kt5563kLiO > 7jDgFg9s5tJiAKYFQ1xKZQxPFYdrfbAzQmRoTTQzWxx3G1vL-0cRV_ryzZyexFuQ0WCUMo > 4intBx4s-ABxeC2tQQ,,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo > t.com%2f&c=E,1,xnJ0Hi8rrwFDgbfh_CYnCEqxWQIwtOa5FzbgKSm02lwTbhjNln5sTOR > ldz7wngn6BjhnvK_hZkBEukt48Xv6hiLinbgZgkjGSqcjOz6eIneWUF0a3g,,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Frank,
To some extent, your response is indicative of the psychoanalytic ends I criticize, the mommy-daddy-me Oedipal construction. Rather than pick up on the opportunity presented by the conversation to engage in an act of creativity (contributing to a forum), you use your agency to make an authoritative (daddy) appeal to an object away from yourself and your agency (the Wikipedia article). This action strikes me as functionally different than Glen's earlier reference, say. While Glen's appeal acts to ground and facilitate a living discussion, yours aims to end one. I felt that the question I asked was fair, to hum a few bars regarding a connection you are making that perhaps could contribute. If this sort of short-circuiting of concepts and conversation is what I can expect from practitioners of psychoanalytic theory, well, maybe it's not for me. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Jon, I am sorry I disappointed you. My understanding of object relations theory is like swiss cheese and I chose not to provide an inadequate response by humming a few bars. By the way, object-relations theory provides a non-Oedipal alternative to your interpretation as explained by the Wikipedia article. I became the withholding bad object to you. I hope you will be able to integrate that with the good object I have been at times. Good for Glen. I am not a practitioner of psychoanalytic theory but it may not be for you. As for psychoanalytic treatment, see the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article. Warmly, Frank On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:09 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: Frank, Frank Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306068036_Psychiatry_as_Bullshit On 4/29/21 3:21 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Jon, > > I am sorry I disappointed you. My understanding of object relations theory is like swiss cheese and I chose not to provide an inadequate response by humming a few bars. By the way, object-relations theory provides a non-Oedipal alternative to your interpretation as explained by the Wikipedia article. I became the withholding bad object to you. I hope you will be able to integrate that with the good object I have been at times. > > Good for Glen. > > I am not a practitioner of psychoanalytic theory but it may not be for you. As for psychoanalytic /treatment, /see the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article. > > Warmly, > > Frank > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:09 PM jon zingale <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > Frank, > > To some extent, your response is indicative of the psychoanalytic > ends I criticize, the mommy-daddy-me Oedipal construction. Rather than > pick up on the opportunity presented by the conversation to engage in an > act of creativity (contributing to a forum), you use your agency to make > an authoritative (daddy) appeal to an object away from yourself and your > agency (the Wikipedia article). This action strikes me as functionally > different than Glen's earlier reference, say. While Glen's appeal acts to > ground and facilitate a living discussion, yours aims to end one. I felt > that the question I asked was fair, to hum a few bars regarding a > connection you are making that perhaps could contribute. If this sort of > short-circuiting of concepts and conversation is what I can expect from > practitioners of psychoanalytic theory, well, maybe it's not for me. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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By that definition most of medicine is bullshit.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 3:27 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306068036_Psychiatry_as_Bullshit On 4/29/21 3:21 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Jon, > > I am sorry I disappointed you. My understanding of object relations theory is like swiss cheese and I chose not to provide an inadequate response by humming a few bars. By the way, object-relations theory provides a non-Oedipal alternative to your interpretation as explained by the Wikipedia article. I became the withholding bad object to you. I hope you will be able to integrate that with the good object I have been at times. > > Good for Glen. > > I am not a practitioner of psychoanalytic theory but it may not be for you. As for psychoanalytic /treatment, /see the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article. > > Warmly, > > Frank > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:09 PM jon zingale <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > Frank, > > To some extent, your response is indicative of the psychoanalytic > ends I criticize, the mommy-daddy-me Oedipal construction. Rather than > pick up on the opportunity presented by the conversation to engage in an > act of creativity (contributing to a forum), you use your agency to make > an authoritative (daddy) appeal to an object away from yourself and your > agency (the Wikipedia article). This action strikes me as functionally > different than Glen's earlier reference, say. While Glen's appeal acts to > ground and facilitate a living discussion, yours aims to end one. I felt > that the question I asked was fair, to hum a few bars regarding a > connection you are making that perhaps could contribute. If this sort of > short-circuiting of concepts and conversation is what I can expect from > practitioners of psychoanalytic theory, well, maybe it's not for me. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
Frank,
There is no disappointment beyond what I have come to expect. It simply seemed an opportunity to elaborate on a theme. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
To make that claim, you'd have to walk through all the medicine that's happening, analgesics, physical therapy, acupuncture, dentistry, etc.. Walking through the psychiatry that's happening is a much smaller task. I agree there does seem to be a lot of it, though ... I just have no idea if it's *most*.
As long as I'm logging opinions, I'd answer Jon's question about psycho*dynamics* with the idea I think I got from Thomas Saaz, that it's fundamentally about creating a therapist-patient relationship ... dovetailing 2 types of raw persuasion/manipulation in order to achieve the ends of the therapist or patient (or both). My guess is the tone of that coercion depends deeply on the 2 parties. Some authoritarian therapists may rely on daddy-mommy-child constructs. Others may be more egalitarian, pushing the ethical boundaries on friendship with one's patients. Etc. Lots of people who lack intimate relationships might come to a better place through such intentional relationship forming. But it needn't be through psychodynamics. I know a few people who've done it with their fitness coach, or life coach. One guy I knew back in Texas regularly visited a round-robin of prostitutes. I joke with my bartenders that I pay them to be my friends ... Good jokes must have some truth in them. On 4/29/21 3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > By that definition most of medicine is bullshit. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 3:27 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306068036_Psychiatry_as_Bullshit > > On 4/29/21 3:21 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >> Jon, >> >> I am sorry I disappointed you. My understanding of object relations theory is like swiss cheese and I chose not to provide an inadequate response by humming a few bars. By the way, object-relations theory provides a non-Oedipal alternative to your interpretation as explained by the Wikipedia article. I became the withholding bad object to you. I hope you will be able to integrate that with the good object I have been at times. >> >> Good for Glen. >> >> I am not a practitioner of psychoanalytic theory but it may not be for you. As for psychoanalytic /treatment, /see the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article. >> >> Warmly, >> >> Frank >> >> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:09 PM jon zingale <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> Frank, >> >> To some extent, your response is indicative of the psychoanalytic >> ends I criticize, the mommy-daddy-me Oedipal construction. Rather than >> pick up on the opportunity presented by the conversation to engage in an >> act of creativity (contributing to a forum), you use your agency to make >> an authoritative (daddy) appeal to an object away from yourself and your >> agency (the Wikipedia article). This action strikes me as functionally >> different than Glen's earlier reference, say. While Glen's appeal acts to >> ground and facilitate a living discussion, yours aims to end one. I felt >> that the question I asked was fair, to hum a few bars regarding a >> connection you are making that perhaps could contribute. If this sort of >> short-circuiting of concepts and conversation is what I can expect from >> practitioners of psychoanalytic theory, well, maybe it's not for me. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Sometime around twenty years ago I was approached by a company that was a spinoff of Kaiser-Permanente. They have access to decades of medical records about millions of patients. Their goal was to determine how much of medical advice given to patients is evidence-based versus traditional rule-based responses to patient symptoms and complaints. Their preliminary analysis was that about 25% was evidence-based. I asked my primary care provider what he thought and he wasn't surprised. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:52 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: By that definition most of medicine is bullshit. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by gepr
Since most who have opinions won't read the Wikipedia article I copy the paragraph at the end that I recommended to Jon here. Numerous research studies have found that most all models of psychotherapy are equally helpful, the difference mainly being the quality of the individual therapist, not the theory the therapist subscribes to. Object Relations Theory attempts to explain this phenomenon via the theory of the Good Object. If a therapist can be patient and empathic, most clients improve their functioning in their world. The client carries with them a picture of the empathic therapist that helps them cope with the stressors of daily life, regardless of what theory of psychology they subscribe to. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 5:14 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: To make that claim, you'd have to walk through all the medicine that's happening, analgesics, physical therapy, acupuncture, dentistry, etc.. Walking through the psychiatry that's happening is a much smaller task. I agree there does seem to be a lot of it, though ... I just have no idea if it's *most*. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by gepr
Following up on Frank's remark, there are these HUGE electronic health & biobank efforts (UK, VA, Kaiser, Explorys), that give testable hypothesis through population-based statistical inference. They give no insight as to why certain relations exist, but I don't think it is fair to expect there be a "model of the mental order" in order to identify deviations from normalness that are undesired, and then use evidence-based methods to suggest drugs to test. It is just that until recently it couldn't be done at scale.
Some of the testing might identify side-effects or long term health risks. That doesn't mean the effort is bullshit. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 4:08 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf To make that claim, you'd have to walk through all the medicine that's happening, analgesics, physical therapy, acupuncture, dentistry, etc.. Walking through the psychiatry that's happening is a much smaller task. I agree there does seem to be a lot of it, though ... I just have no idea if it's *most*. As long as I'm logging opinions, I'd answer Jon's question about psycho*dynamics* with the idea I think I got from Thomas Saaz, that it's fundamentally about creating a therapist-patient relationship ... dovetailing 2 types of raw persuasion/manipulation in order to achieve the ends of the therapist or patient (or both). My guess is the tone of that coercion depends deeply on the 2 parties. Some authoritarian therapists may rely on daddy-mommy-child constructs. Others may be more egalitarian, pushing the ethical boundaries on friendship with one's patients. Etc. Lots of people who lack intimate relationships might come to a better place through such intentional relationship forming. But it needn't be through psychodynamics. I know a few people who've done it with their fitness coach, or life coach. One guy I knew back in Texas regularly visited a round-robin of prostitutes. I joke with my bartenders that I pay them to be my friends ... Good jokes must have some truth in them. On 4/29/21 3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > By that definition most of medicine is bullshit. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 3:27 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306068036_Psychiatry_as_Bulls > hit > > On 4/29/21 3:21 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >> Jon, >> >> I am sorry I disappointed you. My understanding of object relations theory is like swiss cheese and I chose not to provide an inadequate response by humming a few bars. By the way, object-relations theory provides a non-Oedipal alternative to your interpretation as explained by the Wikipedia article. I became the withholding bad object to you. I hope you will be able to integrate that with the good object I have been at times. >> >> Good for Glen. >> >> I am not a practitioner of psychoanalytic theory but it may not be for you. As for psychoanalytic /treatment, /see the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article. >> >> Warmly, >> >> Frank >> >> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:09 PM jon zingale <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> Frank, >> >> To some extent, your response is indicative of the psychoanalytic >> ends I criticize, the mommy-daddy-me Oedipal construction. Rather than >> pick up on the opportunity presented by the conversation to engage in an >> act of creativity (contributing to a forum), you use your agency to make >> an authoritative (daddy) appeal to an object away from yourself and your >> agency (the Wikipedia article). This action strikes me as functionally >> different than Glen's earlier reference, say. While Glen's appeal acts to >> ground and facilitate a living discussion, yours aims to end one. I felt >> that the question I asked was fair, to hum a few bars regarding a >> connection you are making that perhaps could contribute. If this sort of >> short-circuiting of concepts and conversation is what I can expect from >> practitioners of psychoanalytic theory, well, maybe it's not for me. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Obviously. But it's a bit revisionist to project our data-driven inductivism back into the past. The not-true, not-false hand-waving McLaren points out was not a Noble lie told to prep everyone for the day when induction would work. They were spreading bullsh¡t for their own purposes.
Had they been more authentic, like the biologists I've run across, and admitted their theory isn't unquestionably coherent, the spread of bullsh¡t would have been mitigated. But whatever, I agree with your previous sentiment that what matters is that an insight obtained and tracing the learning algorithm at work. With the for-profit Epic holding > 48% market share in EHR, we do stand a chance of effective induction, even if Epic's business model is a little too much like SAP. Upper ontologies might save our butts at this point, helping harmonize all that very crappy and disparate induction-thwarting data. And I just noticed I conflated a man (Szasz) with a variety of hops (Saaz), that must be me observing myself preparing to brew. 8^D On 4/29/21 5:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Following up on Frank's remark, there are these HUGE electronic health & biobank efforts (UK, VA, Kaiser, Explorys), that give testable hypothesis through population-based statistical inference. They give no insight as to why certain relations exist, but I don't think it is fair to expect there be a "model of the mental order" in order to identify deviations from normalness that are undesired, and then use evidence-based methods to suggest drugs to test. It is just that until recently it couldn't be done at scale. > Some of the testing might identify side-effects or long term health risks. That doesn't mean the effort is bullshit. > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 4:08 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf > > To make that claim, you'd have to walk through all the medicine that's happening, analgesics, physical therapy, acupuncture, dentistry, etc.. Walking through the psychiatry that's happening is a much smaller task. I agree there does seem to be a lot of it, though ... I just have no idea if it's *most*. > > As long as I'm logging opinions, I'd answer Jon's question about psycho*dynamics* with the idea I think I got from Thomas Saaz, that it's fundamentally about creating a therapist-patient relationship ... dovetailing 2 types of raw persuasion/manipulation in order to achieve the ends of the therapist or patient (or both). My guess is the tone of that coercion depends deeply on the 2 parties. Some authoritarian therapists may rely on daddy-mommy-child constructs. Others may be more egalitarian, pushing the ethical boundaries on friendship with one's patients. Etc. Lots of people who lack intimate relationships might come to a better place through such intentional relationship forming. > > But it needn't be through psychodynamics. I know a few people who've done it with their fitness coach, or life coach. One guy I knew back in Texas regularly visited a round-robin of prostitutes. I joke with my bartenders that I pay them to be my friends ... Good jokes must have some truth in them. > -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Living near Evergreen has helped me come to a similar conclusion, that I might learn quite a bit from the rationalist bogeys "postmodern", "gender studies", etc. I regularly meet graduates from Evergreen in arguments with libertarians and right wingers in the pubs. I haven't met too many rationalists in the pubs, perhaps because they're too hell-bent on myopic optimization to kill a few brain cells with alcohol. But in these arguments, the agility of the Evergreen alum is flat-out amazing. It's quite similar to Oregon. We lived in spitting distance to Reed. But we were in Clackastan county, which has fewer righties than here in Olympia, but still way more than Portland, proper. So, we'd see a nice gradient of rhetorical agility flowing downhill from Reed.
I used to hold it as a priority to live in "university towns". But now I think I'm prejudiced to living near liberal arts universities. A tech-heavy, rationalist-heavy place no longer looks so appealing. On 4/29/21 11:08 AM, jon zingale wrote: > This article makes me think that I would enjoy a course in queer studies. > I am interested to see how tools developed there are utilized and how > such analyses can provide insight into questions of boundary, object, > and identity. I am not sure of many other fields of study where there > is such an explicit emphasis on developing a rich theory of mereology, > and it does not take too much imagination to see that creating such > generalized tools and techniques can be of value to complexity science. > Glen's Wikipedia reference to Barad's agential realism summarizes some > of what I am finding interesting and applicable to the philosophy of > science. There is a distinct deconstructional component to the writing. > I appreciate that the author's approach is not purely deconstruction for > its own sake, but part of a larger project of reconstruction. Discovery > versus construction appears, to me, a difference between science and > engineering. The article appears to offer more to the former. Maybe > amoeba's are altruists. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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Sheesh, Reed, Evergreen. It's like freaking Ice-9. :-)
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 7:53 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf Living near Evergreen has helped me come to a similar conclusion, that I might learn quite a bit from the rationalist bogeys "postmodern", "gender studies", etc. I regularly meet graduates from Evergreen in arguments with libertarians and right wingers in the pubs. I haven't met too many rationalists in the pubs, perhaps because they're too hell-bent on myopic optimization to kill a few brain cells with alcohol. But in these arguments, the agility of the Evergreen alum is flat-out amazing. It's quite similar to Oregon. We lived in spitting distance to Reed. But we were in Clackastan county, which has fewer righties than here in Olympia, but still way more than Portland, proper. So, we'd see a nice gradient of rhetorical agility flowing downhill from Reed. I used to hold it as a priority to live in "university towns". But now I think I'm prejudiced to living near liberal arts universities. A tech-heavy, rationalist-heavy place no longer looks so appealing. On 4/29/21 11:08 AM, jon zingale wrote: > This article makes me think that I would enjoy a course in queer studies. > I am interested to see how tools developed there are utilized and how > such analyses can provide insight into questions of boundary, object, > and identity. I am not sure of many other fields of study where there > is such an explicit emphasis on developing a rich theory of mereology, > and it does not take too much imagination to see that creating such > generalized tools and techniques can be of value to complexity science. > Glen's Wikipedia reference to Barad's agential realism summarizes some > of what I am finding interesting and applicable to the philosophy of > science. There is a distinct deconstructional component to the writing. > I appreciate that the author's approach is not purely deconstruction > for its own sake, but part of a larger project of reconstruction. > Discovery versus construction appears, to me, a difference between > science and engineering. The article appears to offer more to the > former. Maybe amoeba's are altruists. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by gepr
At times, I miss living near Reed. Sometime in my twenties, my friends
Ralf and Allison and I rented a car and drove to Columbus Ohio where we heard that John Griggs Thompson was to speak. None of us felt like springing for a hotel room and decided instead to drink coffee and eat donuts at Buckeye Donuts until the lecture the next morning. The donut shop was cramped and teeming with students and Columbus's homeless. The three of us sat in the window and watched the falling snow. Allison and I were learning to tie Celtic knots and Ralf sat coloring and writing poetry on index cards. A few feet away from us, a budding engineering student attempted to spit game with another student. The former, male and typical, tried his best to impress the young woman with the status and money that he would one day have as a working engineer. We watched the young woman roll her eyes, cooly flirt, and troll the oblivious boy with anti-rationalist rhetoric. At some point she excused herself, she would need to attend a class the next morning. As she squeezed by us, between the swiveling diner stools, Ralf caught her arm, looked into her eyes, and said, "Would you care to hear a poem about compost tea"? That night, the three of us were invited back to this young woman's house. Her absent parents were both ceramicists and it showed. Every possible spandrel was decorated with cup handles, clay faces, and other abstract forms. The next morning we drank coffee in her kitchen and read the sad news that John Griggs Thompson's lecture would be canceled due to his poor health. The whole affair struck me as being a sort of anti-Aesopian fable. One where, if I needed a moral it would be that one can get more honey with a poem, one involving compost tea. or alternatively, that youth is a donut to be eaten on the spot. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by gepr
"The villagers with pitch forks won't distinguish between Karen Barad and
David Deutsch." Arguably, we don't now. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by gepr
So, I think I am a rationalist, right? So if anybody is doing pearl clutching on this list, it's me. So, here goes.
Is rationality the same as rationalism. You, glen, are patently rational. Does that make you a rationalist? I want you to clarify the meanings of your words, remove, to the extent possible, ambituities in how you use them, try to extract the same meanings FROM them that you put INTO them. That seems rational to me. Does that make me a rationalist? Let's start there. Nick Nick Thompson [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 9:55 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf Ha! Well, no worries. Not only are liberal arts unis dying rapidly, the entire university system is dying, which is why, as problematic as it is, https://www.mikeroweworks.org/ is a good thing in principle. The rationalists are like refined royals clutching their pearls in response to naughty words spoken by (postmodernist, gender studies) libertine "gentlemen". The villagers with pitch forks won't distinguish between Karen Barad and David Deutsch. On 4/30/21 8:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Sheesh, Reed, Evergreen. It's like freaking Ice-9. :-) -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
If they only had hand-to-hand combat and marksmanship classes, a story about Reed campus life could make for a good Netflix cult story. Like the St. Johns kids.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 9:44 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf At times, I miss living near Reed. Sometime in my twenties, my friends Ralf and Allison and I rented a car and drove to Columbus Ohio where we heard that John Griggs Thompson was to speak. None of us felt like springing for a hotel room and decided instead to drink coffee and eat donuts at Buckeye Donuts until the lecture the next morning. The donut shop was cramped and teeming with students and Columbus's homeless. The three of us sat in the window and watched the falling snow. Allision and I were learning to tie Celtic knots and Ralf sat coloring and writing poetry on index cards. A few feet away from us, a budding engineering student attempted to spit game with another student. The former, male and typical, tried his best to impress the young woman with the status and money that he would one day have as a working engineer. We watched the young woman roll her eyes, cooly flirt, and troll the oblivious boy with anti-rationalist rhetoric. At some point she excused herself, she would need to attend a class the next morning. As she squeezed by us, between the swiveling diner stools, Ralf caught her arm, looked into her eyes, and said, "Would you care to hear a poem about compost tea"? That night, the three of us were invited back to this young woman's house. Her absent parents were both ceramicists and it showed. Every possible spandrel was decorated with cup handles, clay faces, and other abstract forms. The next morning we drank coffee in her kitchen and read the sad news that John Griggs Thompson's lecture would be canceled due to his poor health. The whole affair struck me as being a sort of anti-Aesopian fable. One where, if I needed a moral it would be that one can get more honey with a poem, one involving compost tea. or alternatively, that youth is a donut to be eaten on the spot. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Natures_Queer_Performativity_t
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
A great story. Thank you Jon.
Are we in danger of confusing here, irrationality with rationality with occasional random jumps. Your story is only intelligible if you understand the participants as rational. n Nick Thompson [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 10:44 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natures_Queer_Performativity_the_authori.pdf At times, I miss living near Reed. Sometime in my twenties, my friends Ralf and Allison and I rented a car and drove to Columbus Ohio where we heard that John Griggs Thompson was to speak. None of us felt like springing for a hotel room and decided instead to drink coffee and eat donuts at Buckeye Donuts until the lecture the next morning. The donut shop was cramped and teeming with students and Columbus's homeless. The three of us sat in the window and watched the falling snow. Allision and I were learning to tie Celtic knots and Ralf sat coloring and writing poetry on index cards. A few feet away from us, a budding engineering student attempted to spit game with another student. The former, male and typical, tried his best to impress the young woman with the status and money that he would one day have as a working engineer. We watched the young woman roll her eyes, cooly flirt, and troll the oblivious boy with anti-rationalist rhetoric. At some point she excused herself, she would need to attend a class the next morning. As she squeezed by us, between the swiveling diner stools, Ralf caught her arm, looked into her eyes, and said, "Would you care to hear a poem about compost tea"? That night, the three of us were invited back to this young woman's house. Her absent parents were both ceramicists and it showed. Every possible spandrel was decorated with cup handles, clay faces, and other abstract forms. The next morning we drank coffee in her kitchen and read the sad news that John Griggs Thompson's lecture would be canceled due to his poor health. The whole affair struck me as being a sort of anti-Aesopian fable. One where, if I needed a moral it would be that one can get more honey with a poem, one involving compost tea. or alternatively, that youth is a donut to be eaten on the spot. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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