Narcissism and Mass Shootings

[Jochen Fromm-5]

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

-J.

Sent from my Tricorder

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[Tom Johnson]

Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."

===================================
Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, NM
SPJ Region 9 Director
[hidden email]               505-473-9646
===================================

On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

-J.

Sent from my Tricorder

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Gillian Densmore]

Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type. 

Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.

I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere). 

I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.

That's totally cool

What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.

I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful. 

Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc. 

A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone. 

Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.

People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise. 

So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.

In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.

I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.

If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.  

Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'

That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.

Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again. 

In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh) 

"He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing)

I guess I didn't need to go to that program. 

I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.

If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.

Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist. 

Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy. 

I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth,

and live a full wonderul life full of lite

Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.

^_^

Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."

===================================
Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, NM
SPJ Region 9 Director
[hidden email]               <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-473-9646
===================================

On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

-J.

Sent from my Tricorder

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[gepr]

Thanks for sharing more of your story!  I believe it's our duty to share stories, the more personal the better.  It's how we understand our and others' place in the world.  Too many people are too terse and present context-less thoughts.  It's possible that part of the steady increase in the narcissistic personality index has more to do with the ease with which we can isolate ourselves due to modern tech.  I appreciate tools like Twitter (and [sigh] Facebook), streaming music, headphones, internet news, etc.  But such things limit our ability to tell interesting stories to one another.  This episode of Portlandia demonstrates this nicely:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JLWQEuz2gA

Being on the periphery of academia much of my professional life, I run across a lot of people who are much more willing to talk about Other People's Ideas (akin to Other People's Money) than they are to talk about their own ideas.  I've always fought this.  Yeah, read, read, read, read, read... Sure, pay attention to the world.  Of course, give proper credit when you can.  But for Yog's sake, tell the story in your own words.  Your experience is worth the time and effort it takes to tell it _and_ listen to it.

Anyway, thanks.

On 08/01/2016 08:23 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

> Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type.
> Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.
>
> I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere).
>
> I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.
> That's totally cool
>
> What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.
>
> I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful.
>
> Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc.
>
> A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone.
>
> Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.
>
> People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise.
>
> So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.
>
> In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.
> I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.
> If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.  
> Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'
> That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.
>
> Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again.
> In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh)
> "He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing)
> I guess I didn't need to go to that program.
>
> I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.
>
> If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.
>
>
> Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist.
> Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy.
>
> I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth,
> and live a full wonderul life full of lite
> Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.
> ^_^
>
> Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."
>
>     ===================================
>     Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>     Santa Fe, NM
>     SPJ Region 9 Director
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>               505-473-9646 <tel:[phone]>
>     ===================================
>
>
>     On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am.
>         https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters
>
>         According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".
>
>         What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 
>
>         -J.
>
>         Sent from my Tricorder
>
>         ============================================================
>         FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>         Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>         to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>     ============================================================
>     FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>     Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>     to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

--
☢ glen

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[Steve Smith]

Gil -

I second Glen's statement here.  I personally value the fact that I know
many people from many walks of life with many modes of apprehending and
being in the world.  This FriAM/WedTech Crowd is an important part of
that (even though I rarely make a showing at either table in person).

For the most part, this group are comfortably in the "middle class"
spectrum, though I know that not to be the exclusive case.   We are a
much more eclectic group intellectually and culturally.

If I understand Glen's intention correctly, I believe that the isolation
that comes with many aspects of modern society does feed into what the
original post referenced as pathological narcissism.   Your own
testimony of how being marginalized by a system and culture is very
frustrating and only adds to the challenges you might already be
struggling with.

I do think that those who "snap" such as the various snipers, mass
shooters, etc. feel marginalized themselves, but among the anecdotal
examples I know of the individuals involved, their marginalization is of
a qualitatively different kind than that of the masses (think of the
"Black Lives Matter" or even "Occupy" movements)...  I may be wrong but
these individuals appear to be coming from relatively privileged
positions... they probably didn't buy those guns and that ammo on their
EBT cards, for example.   I think they often bought it with their
allowances given them by mommies and daddies too busy to raise their
children properly???

In any case, I agree with the arc of this thread, including I think your
own testimony, that anything we can do to help reduce the
marginalization (of all kinds) and help people avoid falling into
various kinds of withdrawal (including the pathological narcissism
called out by Joachin's post) will help to make the world better place
for all.


- Steve



On 8/1/16 9:48 AM, glen ☢ wrote:

> Thanks for sharing more of your story!  I believe it's our duty to share stories, the more personal the better.  It's how we understand our and others' place in the world.  Too many people are too terse and present context-less thoughts.  It's possible that part of the steady increase in the narcissistic personality index has more to do with the ease with which we can isolate ourselves due to modern tech.  I appreciate tools like Twitter (and [sigh] Facebook), streaming music, headphones, internet news, etc.  But such things limit our ability to tell interesting stories to one another.  This episode of Portlandia demonstrates this nicely:
>
>    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JLWQEuz2gA
>
> Being on the periphery of academia much of my professional life, I run across a lot of people who are much more willing to talk about Other People's Ideas (akin to Other People's Money) than they are to talk about their own ideas.  I've always fought this.  Yeah, read, read, read, read, read... Sure, pay attention to the world.  Of course, give proper credit when you can.  But for Yog's sake, tell the story in your own words.  Your experience is worth the time and effort it takes to tell it _and_ listen to it.
>
> Anyway, thanks.
>
> On 08/01/2016 08:23 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>> Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type.
>> Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.
>>
>> I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere).
>>
>> I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.
>> That's totally cool
>>
>> What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.
>>
>> I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful.
>>
>> Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc.
>>
>> A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone.
>>
>> Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.
>>
>> People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise.
>>
>> So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.
>>
>> In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.
>> I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.
>> If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.
>> Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'
>> That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.
>>
>> Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again.
>> In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh)
>> "He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing)
>> I guess I didn't need to go to that program.
>>
>> I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.
>>
>> If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.
>>
>>
>> Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist.
>> Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy.
>>
>> I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth,
>> and live a full wonderul life full of lite
>> Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.
>> ^_^
>>
>> Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>      Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."
>>
>>      ===================================
>>      Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>>      Santa Fe, NM
>>      SPJ Region 9 Director
>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>               505-473-9646 <tel:[phone]>
>>      ===================================
>>
>>
>>      On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>          Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am.
>>          https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters
>>
>>          According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".
>>
>>          What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 
>>
>>          -J.
>>
>>          Sent from my Tricorder
>>
>>          ============================================================
>>          FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>          Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>          to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>      ============================================================
>>      FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>      Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>      to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Others' stories are not the same thing as others' ideas.   To have empathy is to understand a story.  To be fair and objective is to offer and evaluate ideas.   To be fair and objective means giving someone outside of the group a chance, but it also means that mistakes have consequences.    Groups built around empathy and local interests are prone to failure on both counts.    

For some, stories are valuable data.   One person's life details facilitate analytics for those seeking elected office.   The campaigners can gauge what people want and build their positions around that.  Often any person that has some senior status in a community uses this kind of information to gain more status, or at least do their job better.

One may or may not find this distasteful, depending on the situation, but my real complaint is not with the exploiters, it is with the tendency of people to seek and expect relationships but without offering any "terse and present context-less" analysis of their experience.    Write a novel, paint a picture.    Capture the concept to express somehow so that individuals can exchange information in the space of ideas and not in the space of (all of our) tedious and highly-replicated personal problems.  

Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 9:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings


Thanks for sharing more of your story!  I believe it's our duty to share stories, the more personal the better.  It's how we understand our and others' place in the world.  Too many people are too terse and present context-less thoughts.  It's possible that part of the steady increase in the narcissistic personality index has more to do with the ease with which we can isolate ourselves due to modern tech.  I appreciate tools like Twitter (and [sigh] Facebook), streaming music, headphones, internet news, etc.  But such things limit our ability to tell interesting stories to one another.  This episode of Portlandia demonstrates this nicely:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JLWQEuz2gA

Being on the periphery of academia much of my professional life, I run across a lot of people who are much more willing to talk about Other People's Ideas (akin to Other People's Money) than they are to talk about their own ideas.  I've always fought this.  Yeah, read, read, read, read, read... Sure, pay attention to the world.  Of course, give proper credit when you can.  But for Yog's sake, tell the story in your own words.  Your experience is worth the time and effort it takes to tell it _and_ listen to it.

Anyway, thanks.

On 08/01/2016 08:23 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

> Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type.
> Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.
>
> I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere).
>
> I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.
> That's totally cool
>
> What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.
>
> I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful.
>
> Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc.
>
> A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone.
>
> Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.
>
> People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise.
>
> So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.
>
> In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.
> I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.
> If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.  
> Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'
> That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.
>
> Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again.
> In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices
> "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't
> except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh) "He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing) I guess I didn't need to go to that program.
>
> I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.
>
> If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.
>
>
> Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist.
> Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy.
>
> I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world
> where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and
> child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth, and live a full wonderul life full of lite Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.
> ^_^
>
> Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."
>
>     ===================================
>     Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>     Santa Fe, NM
>     SPJ Region 9 Director
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>               505-473-9646 <tel:[phone]>
>     ===================================
>
>
>     On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am.
>        
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-na
> rcissism-and-mass-shooters
>
>         According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".
>
>         What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 
>
>         -J.
>
>         Sent from my Tricorder
>
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--
☢ glen

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[gepr]

Well, sure, competence in communication involves both abilities: 1) to compress/abstract out detail so as to state your point clearly and 2) to place such a point inside a use case, a narrative.  And although I think of abstraction as one of my skills (at least I tend to do it all the time, perhaps badly), I'm wary of the inscribed _bias_ that comes with pre-[compressed|abstracted] morals-of-the-story.  This is, I think, why that paper on "pseudo-profound bullshit" was interesting.  Any compression of someone's experience will be very helpful _if_ accompanied by the very boring type of facts of interest to a private investigator.  But all compressions of someone's experience are merely pseudo-profound bullshit in the _absence_ of those tedious details.  If forced to choose between (1) xor (2), I much prefer (2).

This is pretty much the only reason I'm willing to vote for Clinton.  (willing but not yet decided... I may still go for Stein or Johnson ... or maybe Cthulhu: https://cthulhuforamerica.com/)  She's a bit of a wonk, much less capable of the vacuous, warm and fuzzy platitudes Obama gives us, but much more credible sounding than Trump because she articulates (at least some of) the details.

On 08/01/2016 10:12 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> One may or may not find this distasteful, depending on the situation, but my real complaint is not with the exploiters, it is with the tendency of people to seek and expect relationships but without offering any "terse and present context-less" analysis of their experience.    Write a novel, paint a picture.    Capture the concept to express somehow so that individuals can exchange information in the space of ideas and not in the space of (all of our) tedious and highly-replicated personal problems.  
>
> Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

--
☢ glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

I don't think a reader should be forced to choose between (1) or (2), but I would prefer that the writer be aware enough to refer to context rather than restating it as if it were their invention.   How is this agent different than the environment which the reader is already equipped to assess?    The pseudo-profound bullshit is debatable, but reasonable people know it is.  It's just a placeholder (in spite of the Portlandians) to get on to more interesting unique details -- the stuff not in the compression dictionaries that represent the prevailing culture.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 2:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings


Well, sure, competence in communication involves both abilities: 1) to compress/abstract out detail so as to state your point clearly and 2) to place such a point inside a use case, a narrative.  And although I think of abstraction as one of my skills (at least I tend to do it all the time, perhaps badly), I'm wary of the inscribed _bias_ that comes with pre-[compressed|abstracted] morals-of-the-story.  This is, I think, why that paper on "pseudo-profound bullshit" was interesting.  Any compression of someone's experience will be very helpful _if_ accompanied by the very boring type of facts of interest to a private investigator.  But all compressions of someone's experience are merely pseudo-profound bullshit in the _absence_ of those tedious details.  If forced to choose between (1) xor (2), I much prefer (2).

This is pretty much the only reason I'm willing to vote for Clinton.  (willing but not yet decided... I may still go for Stein or Johnson ... or maybe Cthulhu: https://cthulhuforamerica.com/)  She's a bit of a wonk, much less capable of the vacuous, warm and fuzzy platitudes Obama gives us, but much more credible sounding than Trump because she articulates (at least some of) the details.

On 08/01/2016 10:12 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> One may or may not find this distasteful, depending on the situation, but my real complaint is not with the exploiters, it is with the tendency of people to seek and expect relationships but without offering any "terse and present context-less" analysis of their experience.    Write a novel, paint a picture.    Capture the concept to express somehow so that individuals can exchange information in the space of ideas and not in the space of (all of our) tedious and highly-replicated personal problems.  
>
> Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

--
☢ glen

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[Jochen Fromm-5]

Possibly, yes. Yes, interesting. Take Hitler, he attacked nearly every European country in WW II. First using words, then with his guns, tanks and rockets. His 'Blitzkrieg' was like a rampage killing on a national level. He was in fact a loser, a failed Austrian postcard painter who was rejected at the art academy and lost WW I. Somehow he stumbled into politics and we know the rest, all the evil that followed.

The Germans were deeply humiliated after the loss of WW I. Many people in the Islamic world today also feel humiliated too by the loss against Israel and by the lack of progress and prosperity in many Islamic countries (although some like the Gulf states are extremely wealthy, and a bit more freedom and rights for women would clearly help a lot). This lack of satisfaction is the fertile soil for turmoil.

I think it is probably the tension between the desired sense of self, which is highly exaggerated among narcissistic people, countries and cultures, and the real sense of self in reality. In physics we have the notion of voltage or electric tension. If the tension gets too high, and there is no lightning rod, we get lightnings and other form of heavy discharges.

So the narcissistic person who is doing well is no immediate danger. Neither is the loser who tries to cope with his fate with a sense of humor or irony (he has indeed our deep sympathy). But if you combine the two, if life becomes really miserable for someone and all hope is gone, although the person in question hates nothing more than losing or being critized, it seems to become dangerous. Then he might try to get rid of his pain by giving it to others.

-Jochen

Sent from my Tricorder

-------- Original message --------

From: Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>

Date: 8/1/16 12:38 (GMT+01:00)

To: "Friam@redfish. com" <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."

===================================
Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, NM
SPJ Region 9 Director
[hidden email]               505-473-9646
===================================

On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

-J.

Sent from my Tricorder

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[gepr]

Of course.  But knowing/deciding how much to cite and how much to place in context is also part of the problem.  Because everyone has a unique interpretation of words (and a unique graph of concepts), it can be difficult to know how much must be spelt out and how much one can rely on common understandings.  A complicating factor has to do with the ability to estimate your audience's diligence, energy, and interest in looking things up and/or thinking things through.  And another complicating factor involves the semantic density of the words/phrases/expressions.  If you use obscure but standard words, you assume the audience knows the dictionary.  If you use jargon, you assume the audience is already familiar with the domain lexicon or is willing to learn it in order to listen to you.

All the above argues against compressed/thin descriptions and for fuller/thick descriptions.

On 08/01/2016 01:28 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I don't think a reader should be forced to choose between (1) or (2), but I would prefer that the writer be aware enough to refer to context rather than restating it as if it were their invention.

--
☣ glen

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[Nick Thompson]

Dear Friammers,

As often happens, this list again  throws up an interesting thread just when I am trying to concentrate on something else, and so cannot properly  participate.  This thread is about communication, which I spent my career studying, and communication in writing, in particular, which I spent my career doing.  It raises for me the fascinating question about the force of talking about the self as a way of communicating universal understanding.  This technique is the hall mark of the E.B. White essay, which often begins with some scene observed from a sharply personal point of view, but reaches out rapidly to the [hypothetical] reader's experience.  The writer of an E.B.White essay always skates on the edge of narcissism because s/he assumes that his own experience is the same as that of everybody else. That error, the egocentric fallacy, is the deep core of narcissism.  And yet, when done well, such essays can be enormously disarming and persuasive.  

I cannot say more at the moment, but do want to thank you for airing this, and hope you continue.  

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 4:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

I don't think a reader should be forced to choose between (1) or (2), but I would prefer that the writer be aware enough to refer to context rather than restating it as if it were their invention.   How is this agent different than the environment which the reader is already equipped to assess?    The pseudo-profound bullshit is debatable, but reasonable people know it is.  It's just a placeholder (in spite of the Portlandians) to get on to more interesting unique details -- the stuff not in the compression dictionaries that represent the prevailing culture.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 2:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings


Well, sure, competence in communication involves both abilities: 1) to compress/abstract out detail so as to state your point clearly and 2) to place such a point inside a use case, a narrative.  And although I think of abstraction as one of my skills (at least I tend to do it all the time, perhaps badly), I'm wary of the inscribed _bias_ that comes with pre-[compressed|abstracted] morals-of-the-story.  This is, I think, why that paper on "pseudo-profound bullshit" was interesting.  Any compression of someone's experience will be very helpful _if_ accompanied by the very boring type of facts of interest to a private investigator.  But all compressions of someone's experience are merely pseudo-profound bullshit in the _absence_ of those tedious details.  If forced to choose between (1) xor (2), I much prefer (2).

This is pretty much the only reason I'm willing to vote for Clinton.  (willing but not yet decided... I may still go for Stein or Johnson ... or maybe Cthulhu: https://cthulhuforamerica.com/)  She's a bit of a wonk, much less capable of the vacuous, warm and fuzzy platitudes Obama gives us, but much more credible sounding than Trump because she articulates (at least some of) the details.

On 08/01/2016 10:12 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> One may or may not find this distasteful, depending on the situation, but my real complaint is not with the exploiters, it is with the tendency of people to seek and expect relationships but without offering any "terse and present context-less" analysis of their experience.    Write a novel, paint a picture.    Capture the concept to express somehow so that individuals can exchange information in the space of ideas and not in the space of (all of our) tedious and highly-replicated personal problems.  
>
> Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

--
☢ glen

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[Jochen Fromm-5]

I don't understand everything you said but there seems to be a lot of anger in the air. So you would consider voting for Trump? My impression is that the old "American Dream" seems to be broken. No health care system can indeed fix a fast food culture which makes people sick because they consume overpriced food imitation instead of real food. No taxes seem to be able to fix the screaming injustice of unlimited capitalism either. If the super rich billionaires like Charles Koch, Mark Cuban or Mike Bloomberg would share a bit of their extraordinary wealth, then ordinary people would certainly have to suffer less. Higher taxes for the super rich, better health care and stronger rules for corporations that make you sick would probably be a first step towards more justice. Trump's politics is not the way to any plausible solution from an European point of view. I fear that a narcissistic personality will lead to an exaggerated collective narcissism which is indistinguishable from fascism, racism, or similar forms of political mistakes. Is the situation in Santa Fe really so bad? I thought Owen earns well?

-Jochen

-------- Original message --------

From: Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]>

Date: 8/1/16 17:23 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type. 

Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.

I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere). 

I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.

That's totally cool

What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.

I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful. 

Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc. 

A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone. 

Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.

People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise. 

So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.

In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.

I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.

If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.  

Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'

That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.

Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again. 

In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh) 

"He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing)

I guess I didn't need to go to that program. 

I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.

If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.

Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist. 

Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy. 

I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth,

and live a full wonderul life full of lite

Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.

^_^

Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."

===================================
Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, NM
SPJ Region 9 Director
[hidden email]               <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">505-473-9646
===================================

On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

-J.

Sent from my Tricorder

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

If individuals want to communicate they should be prepared to negotiate terminology.    If there is a terminology established in some community, then an outsider's inability or unwillingness to adopt that language is suspect.    There may be good reasons for insiders to tolerate that, but there may be good reasons not to as well.  Thus, the outsider may want to study how to use minimal but sufficient calibrated descriptions rather than boring the insiders with needlessly complicated arrays of words designed for a more popular audience.  

Trump and the like would call such insider people things like `Washington Elites' or such, without reflecting on whether they, as outsiders, are that way because they just lack relevant domain knowledge and don't deserve any particular status amongst the insiders -- and not that there was some injustice or corruption involved in their exclusion.  This drive to keep talking without having anything informed to say seems to me to be a sort of narcissism.  And there is clearly an audience, and perhaps a growing one, that has a  preference for personality over expertise.    I can't help but wonder if the proliferation of social media has something to do with this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 3:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings


Of course.  But knowing/deciding how much to cite and how much to place in context is also part of the problem.  Because everyone has a unique interpretation of words (and a unique graph of concepts), it can be difficult to know how much must be spelt out and how much one can rely on common understandings.  A complicating factor has to do with the ability to estimate your audience's diligence, energy, and interest in looking things up and/or thinking things through.  And another complicating factor involves the semantic density of the words/phrases/expressions.  If you use obscure but standard words, you assume the audience knows the dictionary.  If you use jargon, you assume the audience is already familiar with the domain lexicon or is willing to learn it in order to listen to you.

All the above argues against compressed/thin descriptions and for fuller/thick descriptions.

On 08/01/2016 01:28 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I don't think a reader should be forced to choose between (1) or (2), but I would prefer that the writer be aware enough to refer to context rather than restating it as if it were their invention.

--
☣ glen

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[Steve Smith]

Damn Nick! 

That is one enormously disarming and persuasive argument!  Good luck with your distraction... I have a small clutch of freshly fledged Ravens in my trees acting up right about now... they made me think of you (and your interests, not your nature)! 

Most if not all of you will be relieved that I just composed and deleted (relieved at the last part) a longwinded response to Marcus' original contribution.  

The only thing I was motivated to rescue from that diatribe is the following tangent off of Marcus' own tangent:

Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

I hope you aren't planning on holding your breath on this one?  Neither of the Duopoly candidates comes close on either count as far as I can tell.   I give both Gary and Jill lower points on the narcissist scale than the first two, but that may only be because they haven't had the microphone or the limelight for long enough yet?   Are any of them introverted?   It has been suggested that Nixon and Coolidge were the only card carrying introverts with Jefferson and Madison being functionally introverted because of there extreme scholarly nature.   Adams (senior, not JQ) also gets a nod.   The rest are pretty likely not particularly introverted.   It doesn't seem to fit the nature of becoming a candidate for and then securing the office?

Pew did their own study of the level of Narcissism in the Oval Office:

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/11/14/the-most-narcissistic-u-s-presidents/

suggesting that US presidents were more narcissistic than the average American.  Guess where some of your favorite love-to-hate and love-to-love figures land on that scale?

I appreciate your distinction between Introvert and Narcissist.
In an article from Psychology Today, it is pointed out that not all introverts are narcissists, but when they are:

    they "may have a way of influencing others around them to feel off-balance and/or insecure."
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/communication-success/201601/7-signs-covert-introvert-narcissist

Steve

On 8/1/16 4:08 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear Friammers, 

As often happens, this list again  throws up an interesting thread just when I am trying to concentrate on something else, and so cannot properly  participate.  This thread is about communication, which I spent my career studying, and communication in writing, in particular, which I spent my career doing.  It raises for me the fascinating question about the force of talking about the self as a way of communicating universal understanding.  This technique is the hall mark of the E.B. White essay, which often begins with some scene observed from a sharply personal point of view, but reaches out rapidly to the [hypothetical] reader's experience.  The writer of an E.B.White essay always skates on the edge of narcissism because s/he assumes that his own experience is the same as that of everybody else. That error, the egocentric fallacy, is the deep core of narcissism.  And yet, when done well, such essays can be enormously disarming and persuasive.  

I cannot say more at the moment, but do want to thank you for airing this, and hope you continue.   

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 4:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

I don't think a reader should be forced to choose between (1) or (2), but I would prefer that the writer be aware enough to refer to context rather than restating it as if it were their invention.   How is this agent different than the environment which the reader is already equipped to assess?    The pseudo-profound bullshit is debatable, but reasonable people know it is.  It's just a placeholder (in spite of the Portlandians) to get on to more interesting unique details -- the stuff not in the compression dictionaries that represent the prevailing culture.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 2:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings


Well, sure, competence in communication involves both abilities: 1) to compress/abstract out detail so as to state your point clearly and 2) to place such a point inside a use case, a narrative.  And although I think of abstraction as one of my skills (at least I tend to do it all the time, perhaps badly), I'm wary of the inscribed _bias_ that comes with pre-[compressed|abstracted] morals-of-the-story.  This is, I think, why that paper on "pseudo-profound bullshit" was interesting.  Any compression of someone's experience will be very helpful _if_ accompanied by the very boring type of facts of interest to a private investigator.  But all compressions of someone's experience are merely pseudo-profound bullshit in the _absence_ of those tedious details.  If forced to choose between (1) xor (2), I much prefer (2).

This is pretty much the only reason I'm willing to vote for Clinton.  (willing but not yet decided... I may still go for Stein or Johnson ... or maybe Cthulhu: https://cthulhuforamerica.com/)  She's a bit of a wonk, much less capable of the vacuous, warm and fuzzy platitudes Obama gives us, but much more credible sounding than Trump because she articulates (at least some of) the details.

On 08/01/2016 10:12 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

One may or may not find this distasteful, depending on the situation, but my real complaint is not with the exploiters, it is with the tendency of people to seek and expect relationships but without offering any "terse and present context-less" analysis of their experience.    Write a novel, paint a picture.    Capture the concept to express somehow so that individuals can exchange information in the space of ideas and not in the space of (all of our) tedious and highly-replicated personal problems.  

Marcus.. who is looking forward to an introverted president and not a narcissist.   They are not the same thing.

--
☢ glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

What if the age of the middle class is just gone?    It seems inevitable that robotics and gradual improvements to machine learning and then artificial intelligence will displace more and more workers.    What the trend toward concentration of wealth is really just the first sign of a necessary downward pressure on the human population?   The fascism, racism, etc. are just a _symptom_ -- a sort of analogue to programmed cell death?

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 4:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

 

I don't understand everything you said but there seems to be a lot of anger in the air. So you would consider voting for Trump? My impression is that the old "American Dream" seems to be broken. No health care system can indeed fix a fast food culture which makes people sick because they consume overpriced food imitation instead of real food. No taxes seem to be able to fix the screaming injustice of unlimited capitalism either. If the super rich billionaires like Charles Koch, Mark Cuban or Mike Bloomberg would share a bit of their extraordinary wealth, then ordinary people would certainly have to suffer less. Higher taxes for the super rich, better health care and stronger rules for corporations that make you sick would probably be a first step towards more justice. Trump's politics is not the way to any plausible solution from an European point of view. I fear that a narcissistic personality will lead to an exaggerated collective narcissism which is indistinguishable from fascism, racism, or similar forms of political mistakes. Is the situation in Santa Fe really so bad? I thought Owen earns well?

 

-Jochen

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]>

Date: 8/1/16 17:23 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings

 

Hmmm well I apear to be the groups simple-person-type. 

Sure having some guesses as to why people are frankly snapping could be handy.

 

I suspect as a simple-ol'fation kind of Countery-Bumpkinish type. These people had some frustrations that didn't get met. It possibly sat in there head while doing day to day routines and they just wanted (ThisThingHere). 

 

I think the other StarShip in the room is that America is doing a realy bad job of admitting that people want a rich, fun and fulling life. That we are meant to do things as a group and team for the most part.

That's totally cool

 

What is not so cool is ignoring people offering or needing ThingHere. Or just being Aholes. That'll get people to snap. Seems like that's happening. I hope things improve and hold out some hope they can and will.

 

I face this day to day I am on benifits. I get told quite a bit that  'your a freeloader ' or 'No (we the powers that be don't think) you deserve better benefits..'  And none of them has had to live on about 70-80USD a week. That kind of stress day in day out has a nasty way if instilling an eneromous physical and mental drain  no man woman or child should ever deel with.  It can  and will eat at you if you are not careful. 

 

Hell I'm even seeing some of the physical issues to that myself. Enormous weight issues. Chronic discomforts. Migraines. Eetc. 

 

A Normal healthy systems would never do that to anyone. 

 

Then in my case there's the mentall tolls to: Self dbout, depression, anxiety,  mental energy, Staying clear and postive about wanting to be  back to the happy-go-lucky me, and in my case seriusly considering moving to either a new state possibly countery.

 

People snapping meens the group didn't keep it's promise. 

 

So they then snapped. We can guess what went through there heads and why, If they didn't get the warmth, food, support, can do etc they needed then yeah they'll snap somehow.

 

In my case I it was beyond luck and some part of me saying 'Hell no-dude this is NOT you you do to give a damn, and you are to full of lite' when I almost snapped my self because I didn't feel as though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.

I don't know how the hell I kept myself from getting worse.  Fam has seen me through all manner of stages in my life. lol. But others don't have that.

If they don't get there needs and wants met. they'll snap.  

Here's a common scenario 'WHat do you meen you just want some warm clothes?' , 'How dare you say you're down on your luck and need some food- that's entitlement and we don't give out free stuff!'

That was a almost word for word that I have burned into my head at a this place called SpiritLink several years ago when some persons house burned down and they had to have a place to live.

 

Now imagine beging told that kind of crap while doing a demeaning process of getting "Wellfare" so as you might pull yourself up? Over and over and over and over again. 

In my case: "Yeah I just need a check up" (to LOTS) of doctors offices "Oh don't take your kind" (what do you meen I told one) "Oh we don't except BluCross from 'Obama care' (sigh) 

"He yeah do you guys offer coaching services? and programs so I can get my masters?" (The lady on the phone responded came across as laughing)

I guess I didn't need to go to that program. 

 

I am lucky I have that I've been through enough Bullshit to somewhat shrug off that kind of aholery.

 

If America expects to get anyplace that has got to end.

 

 

Anyway I guess i'm a pragmatist. 

Aholery, and Taint hasn't gotten America anyplace but a bunch of people snapping. That is not good or healthy. 

 

I myself have said quite a few times I hope for a future in the world where everyone is full if life, and light where every man woman and child can experience pure unbridled bliss, joy and mirth,

and live a full wonderul life full of lite

Soon as that happens I suspect things will imrpove enormously, here and across the globe.

^_^

 

Being on the recieving end of (some of) the Aholery they might have recieved I thought it might be usefull for this group to see one of there own deels day in and out with the rediclous issues some of those people may have dealt with.

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, and it also could explain Trump's "verbal violence."

===================================
Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, NM
SPJ Region 9 Director
[hidden email]               <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-473-9646
===================================

 

On Aug 1, 2016 2:53 AM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Recently there has been an increasing number of rampage killings and suicide attacks in Europe and America. One theory says that rampage killings are related to pathological narcissism. The perpetrators are often offended narcissistic outsiders who want to restore their crippled sense of self-worth by an act of ultimate violence. Usually they announce their terror acts on social media sites. I kill, therefore I am. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-shrink/201510/american-narcissism-and-mass-shooters

 

According to this Psychology Today​​​​ article, many of the recent rampage killings were a malignant form of narcissism, where the perpetrators had to satisfy their "need for revenge…for undoing a hurt by whatever means… by giving their pain to others and in doing so build up the remnants of their self-worth through violence".

What do you think about this theory? Does it make sense? 

 

-J.

 

Sent from my Tricorder

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

“It has been suggested that Nixon and Coolidge were the only card carrying introverts with Jefferson and Madison being functionally introverted because of there extreme scholarly nature.   Adams (senior, not JQ) also gets a nod.   The rest are pretty likely not particularly introverted.   It doesn't seem to fit the nature of becoming a candidate for and then securing the office?”

At the democratic convention, there were the naturals, Michelle, Bill, and Barack, and then there was Hillary (“the most famous person nobody knows”).  She just doesn’t have the touch like them and I’d guess she doesn’t even want it.  I’m ok with that – pleased even.  Must be terrifying to someone like Putin.   Almost feel sorry for him.  Merkel and Clinton to telling him what to do all the time.  J

Marcus

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[Steve Smith]

... Must be terrifying to someone like Putin.   Almost feel sorry for him.  Merkel and Clinton to telling him what to do all the time.  J

Marcus

If only we could get Stephen Colbert and Tina Fey on the ballot... and into the oval office... sure we'd have to fill the coveted Late Show slot, but then I think they would take most of the Republican Votes and all of the Democrat votes and a lot of the independents for a total landslide.

Fey could seduce Putin while in Palin drag, thus nullifying him... keep him busy flying around Eastern Russia hunting Siberian Wolves from a Soviet era gunship (take out entire packs with a single strafing run).

We'd *still* be the laughing stock of the world, but at least they would be laughing *with* us, not (just) *at* us!

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[gepr]

The analog wouldn't be cell death.  It would be systemic, much more like a self-regulatory dysfunction, auto-immune disease or cancer of a diffuse system (like a blood cancer).  Perhaps an even better analog would be simple aging.  Or maybe the solution that we _are_ ... our structure, way of being, a mechanism discovered by evolution ... is no longer appropriate.  The landscape has changed and this solution is no longer a solution.  In this context, mass shootings, fascism, kids who can't hold down jobs walking around with vape pipes in their mouths and earbuds in their ears, etc. are all evidence that evolution is searching for a _new_ solution to the new problem.

Sounds like transhumanism to me!


On 08/01/2016 04:28 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> What if the age of the middle class is just gone?    It seems inevitable that robotics and gradual improvements to machine learning and then artificial intelligence will displace more and more workers.    What the trend toward concentration of wealth is really just the first sign of a necessary downward pressure on the human population?   The fascism, racism, etc. are just a _/symptom/_ -- a sort of analogue to programmed cell death?
>
>  
>
> *From:*Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2016 4:13 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Narcissism and Mass Shootings
>
>  
>
> I don't understand everything you said but there seems to be a lot of anger in the air. So you would consider voting for Trump? My impression is that the old "American Dream" seems to be broken. No health care system can indeed fix a fast food culture which makes people sick because they consume overpriced food imitation instead of real food. No taxes seem to be able to fix the screaming injustice of unlimited capitalism either. If the super rich billionaires like Charles Koch, Mark Cuban or Mike Bloomberg would share a bit of their extraordinary wealth, then ordinary people would certainly have to suffer less. Higher taxes for the super rich, better health care and stronger rules for corporations that make you sick would probably be a first step towards more justice. Trump's politics is not the way to any plausible solution from an European point of view. I fear that a narcissistic personality will lead to an exaggerated collective narcissism which is indistinguishable from
> fascism, racism, or similar forms of political mistakes. Is the situation in Santa Fe really so bad? I thought Owen earns well?

though and still don't that my needs and wants get met all that well.
>

--
☢ glen
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

"In this context, mass shootings, fascism, kids who can't hold down jobs walking around with vape pipes in their mouths and earbuds in their ears, etc. are all evidence that evolution is searching for a _new_ solution to the new problem."

The auto-immune analogy would seem say that the government was off the rails and destroying good tissue.   Perhaps this is just more like an infection and the news media all over the mass shootings, for example, is like antibodies tagging an antigen.    I said programmed cell death because I was thinking of Hodgkin lymphoma co-opting  antitumoral response to prevent immune surveillance.   The injection of cognitive dissonance and distraction into the media (Trump noise) seems like that kind of downregulation of a normal immune response to let cancer cells proliferate.

I don't know how reproduction rates change during world wars or civil wars.  One might expect that reproduction rates would go up.   Evolution could be looking for a way to make them go down, and I think vape pipes have to be a part of that!

Marcus
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[gepr]

The recent filing of Ryan Bundy scared me a little bit:

  http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/ryan-bundy-incompetent-subject-federal-law/

We're breeding these people, somehow.  Granted the 'sovereign citizens' are very different from the Trumpists and the mass shooters.  But I can't shake the feeling they're related.  They (Trumpists, mass shooters, 'sovereign citizens', 3%-ers, anti-abortionists, oath keepers, etc.) all seem to make the immune system analogy, thinking they're  playing the role of the immune system and "government" (as well as liberals) are the infection.  But your Hodgkin's metaphor might work well, there.  They take some normal ligand like an oath, badge, or moral stance and modify its function for a slightly different purpose.  (Is the oath/badge the ligand or the receptor?)


On 08/02/2016 08:49 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> "In this context, mass shootings, fascism, kids who can't hold down jobs walking around with vape pipes in their mouths and earbuds in their ears, etc. are all evidence that evolution is searching for a _new_ solution to the new problem."
>
> The auto-immune analogy would seem say that the government was off the rails and destroying good tissue.   Perhaps this is just more like an infection and the news media all over the mass shootings, for example, is like antibodies tagging an antigen.    I said programmed cell death because I was thinking of Hodgkin lymphoma co-opting  antitumoral response to prevent immune surveillance.   The injection of cognitive dissonance and distraction into the media (Trump noise) seems like that kind of downregulation of a normal immune response to let cancer cells proliferate.
>
> I don't know how reproduction rates change during world wars or civil wars.  One might expect that reproduction rates would go up.   Evolution could be looking for a way to make them go down, and I think vape pipes have to be a part of that!


--
☢ glen

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