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Interdisciplinary work

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Jochen Fromm-5

Interdisciplinary work

I just stumbled upon this Spanish quote from Cervantes: "El más tonto sabe más en su casa que el sabio en la ajena" which means "the most foolish person knows more in his home than the wise person knows in someone else's".

In this sense interdisciplinary work as the SFI wants to do is hardly possible because we are always making fools of ourselves when we leave our home. For example if I start to talk about psychology as a physicist and computer scientist I must look like a fool to Nick and Eric since I have not studied it :-/

By the way thanks David for your invaluable feedback to my foolish interdisciplinary writings, I am still working on it.

-J.

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thompnickson2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Everybody’s a phool on phriam. That’s why I love us.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 7:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

By the way thanks David for your invaluable feedback to my foolish interdisciplinary writings, I am still working on it.

-J.

jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

Those silly maidens!

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 9:47 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Not relevant.

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:47 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by jon zingale

I am not sure he wrote this :-/ My favorite Cervantes quote from Don Quixote is "There is no book so bad that it does not have something good in it". I remember reading it in Greece during a summer vacation. Don Quixote has everything, it is funny, wise and one of the first novels ever. When we discussed a list of best books here on FRIAM, someone immediately mentioned it (don't remember who).

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/27/20 17:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by jon zingale

My favorite quote from Don Quixote is probably the most famous:

Whether the stone hits the vase or the vase hits the stone it's bad for the vase.

I have multiple copies in Spanish and English but I've only read parts.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am not sure he wrote this :-/ My favorite Cervantes quote from Don Quixote is "There is no book so bad that it does not have something good in it". I remember reading it in Greece during a summer vacation. Don Quixote has everything, it is funny, wise and one of the first novels ever. When we discussed a list of best books here on FRIAM, someone immediately mentioned it (don't remember who).

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/27/20 17:47 (GMT+01:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Jochen, Merle,

To be clear I was not attempting offense, and before we

race to the bottom and get too butt-hurt, I would like to

point out that the quote I offered was from the introduction

to Don Quixote that I had in hand a number of years ago.

When I read the quote, I immediately wrote it down and

when I trawl the internet today, it doesn't seem to show up.

I literally had to dig through the pages of one of my archived

notebooks to find it.

Upon reflection, the quote does seem relevant to me if I replace

silly women with stuffy post-academics. The wisdom it seems is that

thinking carefully is for yourself and that the audience is inevitably

composed of nincompoops and ninnies.

Jon

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

Jon, you are forgiven.

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:44 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen, Merle,

To be clear I was not attempting offense, and before we
race to the bottom and get too butt-hurt, I would like to
point out that the quote I offered was from the introduction
to Don Quixote that I had in hand a number of years ago.
When I read the quote, I immediately wrote it down and
when I trawl the internet today, it doesn't seem to show up.
I literally had to dig through the pages of one of my archived
notebooks to find it.

Upon reflection, the quote does seem relevant to me if I replace
silly women with stuffy post-academics. The wisdom it seems is that
thinking carefully is for yourself and that the audience is inevitably
composed of nincompoops and ninnies.

Jon
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Thank you, Merle.

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

By the way, Jon, when I talk about complex systems science, I refer to it as "transdisciplinary", as opposed to "interdisciplinary".

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:14 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you, Merle.
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

For those who have read Don Quixote, I would be interested to know what what would be your favorite English translation as well as your favorite modern Spanish version (as I understand it, a lot of the story was written in "Old Castilian").

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

My favorite quote from Don Quixote is probably the most famous:

Whether the stone hits the vase or the vase hits the stone it's bad for the vase.

I have multiple copies in Spanish and English but I've only read parts.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not sure he wrote this :-/ My favorite Cervantes quote from Don Quixote is "There is no book so bad that it does not have something good in it". I remember reading it in Greece during a summer vacation. Don Quixote has everything, it is funny, wise and one of the first novels ever. When we discussed a list of best books here on FRIAM, someone immediately mentioned it (don't remember who).

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/27/20 17:47 (GMT+01:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Merle,

A brief internet survey suggests a difference between interdisciplinary

and transdisciplinary research. The latter focuses on building new,

something more than combinatorial exploration. Would you say more

about your sense of transdisciplinary research? What do you feel is

lacking within interdisciplinary models that can be satisfied by the other?

Jon

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Read it in the original Spanish, Castilian as it is. Would you read Shakespeare in modern vernacular English? Spanish has changed less than English. When I don't understand something in the King James version of the Bible I read the Spanish Bible to clarify. It's stuff like "Dijoselo" (old) instead of "Se lo dijo (modern)."

My favorite English translation is by Samuel Putnam Modern Library). It has some of the archaic feel of the original. "Knight of the Mournful Countenance" for "Caballero de la Triste Figura"

for instance.

Frank

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those who have read Don Quixote, I would be interested to know what what would be your favorite English translation as well as your favorite modern Spanish version (as I understand it, a lot of the story was written in "Old Castilian").

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
My favorite quote from Don Quixote is probably the most famous:

Whether the stone hits the vase or the vase hits the stone it's bad for the vase.

I have multiple copies in Spanish and English but I've only read parts.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not sure he wrote this :-/ My favorite Cervantes quote from Don Quixote is "There is no book so bad that it does not have something good in it". I remember reading it in Greece during a summer vacation. Don Quixote has everything, it is funny, wise and one of the first novels ever. When we discussed a list of best books here on FRIAM, someone immediately mentioned it (don't remember who).

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>
Date: 5/27/20 17:47 (GMT+01:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Interdisciplinary research is satisfied with the diversity of thought that comes from a combinatorial search of different existing models. Transdisciplinary research explores the possibility of breakthrough to an entirely new mental operating system waiting to be discovered in the adjacent possible.

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:33 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Merle,

A brief internet survey suggests a difference between interdisciplinary
and transdisciplinary research. The latter focuses on building new,
something more than combinatorial exploration. Would you say more
about your sense of transdisciplinary research? What do you feel is
lacking within interdisciplinary models that can be satisfied by the other?

Jon

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Merle,

Cool. I am hearing that there is a kind of Jachin-Boaz duality,

where transdisciplinary research establishes (Jachin) and

interdisciplinary research fortifies (Boaz). What is it we are

doing when we act in a transdisciplinary way? Are there

exercises or practices to promote growth into an adjacent

possible (like improv theater warmups)?

Jon

Steve Smith

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Interesting that while I have not read the Castilian original nor more than snippets of more contemporary Spanish translations, the English translation I read (in HS?) felt like it might have imposed/projected-onto this work a very Anglophonic sensibility/style in it's translation. I experienced a (translated) student production of DQ in college which gave me a stronger experience than the translated reading, but 40 years later, my young (30something) Spanish (Basque) colleague from Wales speaks of the DQ tale as if Sancho Panza is the true hero/protaganist, which was what I suspected in my own first reading. It read as a modern "buddy flick" rolls in many ways and recent revisits to the tale reminded me of the 'Quixotification" of Panza and the "Panzafication" of Quixote as one of the outcomes... a blending of the earthy and practical with the educated and idealistic. Also likely a reflection of the life and times of it's penning while still seeming to have plenty of relevance today.

On 5/27/20 2:37 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Read it in the original Spanish, Castilian as it is. Would you read Shakespeare in modern vernacular English? Spanish has changed less than English. When I don't understand something in the King James version of the Bible I read the Spanish Bible to clarify. It's stuff like "Dijoselo" (old) instead of "Se lo dijo (modern)."

My favorite English translation is by Samuel Putnam Modern Library). It has some of the archaic feel of the original. "Knight of the Mournful Countenance" for "Caballero de la Triste Figura"

for instance.

Frank

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those who have read Don Quixote, I would be interested to know what what would be your favorite English translation as well as your favorite modern Spanish version (as I understand it, a lot of the story was written in "Old Castilian").

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

My favorite quote from Don Quixote is probably the most famous:

Whether the stone hits the vase or the vase hits the stone it's bad for the vase.

I have multiple copies in Spanish and English but I've only read parts.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am not sure he wrote this :-/ My favorite Cervantes quote from Don Quixote is "There is no book so bad that it does not have something good in it". I remember reading it in Greece during a summer vacation. Don Quixote has everything, it is funny, wise and one of the first novels ever. When we discussed a list of best books here on FRIAM, someone immediately mentioned it (don't remember who).

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Jon Zingale <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/27/20 17:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interdisciplinary work

Jochen,

Though likely not relevant, I wanted to share my favorite Cervantes quote:

"A wise man should ever be cautious when writing books to let his humor
and his wits run leaden-footed. For if he writes for silly maidens, then he
writes for nincompoops and ninnies."

Jon

-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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--

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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jon zingale

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

Steve,

you write:

my young (30something) Spanish (Basque) colleague from Wales speaks of the DQ tale as if Sancho Panza is the true hero/protaganist, which was what I suspected in my own first reading.

It is great that you mention this. I have pretty much felt the same

way about Don Quixote and Sancho Panza. In some ways, I feel that

Don Quixote was the spiritual predecessor of Voltaire's Candide.

In both cases, I feel a strong sense of contempt emanating from the

authors and focused upon the titular characters. In the case of Cervantes,

he is quite a bit more clever. Situating Sancho Panza as the protagonist,

Cervantes himself does not seem to have much patience for idealistas,

gives us a protagonist in a submissive power role. He watches after the

Don and is charged with an impossibly compassionate task. The whole

affair has a wit, sarcasm, and dare I say humor.

Jon

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

And irony. The Knight is the less competent one. And despite his cynicism Sancho is practical and effective. There is the scene in which Don Quixote is very "presumido" arrogantly proud to be in possession of the helmet of Mambrino, a very famous and valiant, knight. Sancho finally says but, your honor, don't you see it is a simple barber's basin? Don Quixote says, impatiently, but, Sancho, of course it looks like a barber's basin because then envious people won't realize what it is and won't try to steal it. Or words to that effect.

Frank

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:30 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

you write:
my young (30something) Spanish (Basque) colleague from Wales speaks of the DQ tale as if Sancho Panza is the true hero/protaganist, which was what I suspected in my own first reading.

It is great that you mention this. I have pretty much felt the same
way about Don Quixote and Sancho Panza. In some ways, I feel that
Don Quixote was the spiritual predecessor of Voltaire's Candide.
In both cases, I feel a strong sense of contempt emanating from the
authors and focused upon the titular characters. In the case of Cervantes,
he is quite a bit more clever. Situating Sancho Panza as the protagonist,
Cervantes himself does not seem to have much patience for idealistas,
gives us a protagonist in a submissive power role. He watches after the
Don and is charged with an impossibly compassionate task. The whole
affair has a wit, sarcasm, and dare I say humor.

Jon

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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: Interdisciplinary work

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Improv, absolutely! I've already included this in the training manual I've been commissioned to write for group facilitators who want a new methodology to lead deep dialogue into the adjacent possible for climate survival. I'm also looking into how science fiction writers and choreographers approach their craft.

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:55 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Merle,

Cool. I am hearing that there is a kind of Jachin-Boaz duality,
where transdisciplinary research establishes (Jachin) and
interdisciplinary research fortifies (Boaz). What is it we are
doing when we act in a transdisciplinary way? Are there
exercises or practices to promote growth into an adjacent
possible (like improv theater warmups)?

Jon
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

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