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So, Roger, you've just given additional, very compelling evidence for Microsoft incompetence! They weren't even able to kill OpenGL!
Seriously though, the OpenGL piece hasn't been a problem on any platform except for Ubuntu, where off and on there's a serious problem with VPython users trying to install a competent graphics driver. The problems that have repeatedly come up for me with the Mac have had to do with operating system changes, and the problems on Ubuntu (other than graphics) have been broken libraries, in both cases in the part of the world having to do with creating a window and handling events. Bruce On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
It's hard to buy into that argument when it leaves us at the mercy of incompatible versions of Direct X and problems of dealing with third party drivers. In many ways, most the difficulties we experience started with and continue to be driven by the game world. For many years graphics and mathematical software was driven by the scientific community which valued stability and backward compatibility. When the market became dominated by game players who are willing to replace their entire systems every year, the business changed dramatically, not only in terms of the software but also in terms of the hardware.
Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon On Feb 8, 2013, at 1:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
Elder Dog -
Yes... and you grow on the rest of us too! Incorrigible (rhymes with "encourageable" ?) Does that include whitey-tighteys with cute little penguins printed on them ;^) ? I know... got any *new* tricks? (not an opening for a new tack of ribaldry!) My point (if I ever have one, and then not lost in the expansive expostulation) is primarily that these are religious wars and even the avowed "athiests" (proponents of non-commercial, open source, etc) are battling from a similar position to their hated rivals. - YungerDog ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Ed wrote:
"It's hard to buy into that argument when it leaves us at the mercy of incompatible versions of Direct X and problems of dealing with third party drivers." VMware and VirtualBox both have 3D acceleration layers... Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by glen ep ropella
Glen -
>> There is nothing in the universe I >> hate more than the single character '\' ! > Hate is a strong word. Ok... hyperbole. But it does elicit physical reactions when I try to type it! Even here in e-mail '\' <ouch!> . > But I feel it when I have to SCP files with > spaces in them ... which Microsoft and Apple people seem to be fond of. Which we cope with using the hated '\' <arghhh!> to "escape"? Direct quote from "man csh(1)" `\' nullifies the special meaning of the following character, if it has any, notably `\' and `^'. > I think the most irritating thing to me is the assumption that a GUI is > always more usable than the command line. I love my command line (csh, bash, ...), even for text editing (vi:ex, sed), but I *rarely* suggest that anyone else would/should/could find it easier to learn than pretty much *any* WYSIWIG editor. GUIs, if reasonably designed, almost always provide a *much* lower threshold to entry than command lines. I'd hate to have to learn various > Random access is good. If I want to be scoped, I'll do it myself, thank > you very much. 8^) Anarcho-Libertarian? > Which takes me back to the conversation we were having before. The > command line (and tools like vbox) allows me to "tunnel" between > subcultures quite nicely. I am very happy WINE exists. But it irks me > in a way I can't describe. Reflectively, however, I should like WINE > better than VBox... I guess I'm just confused. The myriad choices for cross-platform coping is amazing IMO, whether it is at the level of Cygwin (sorry Doug) or Virtual Machines or multi-boot, or even just the myriad cross-platform dev environments/apps/etc. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve wrote:
<<My point (if I ever have one, and then not lost in the expansive expostulation) is primarily that these are religious wars and even the avowed "athiests" (proponents of non-commercial, open source, etc) are battling from a similar position to their hated rivals.>> If you think that a corporation is the same kind of organization as a democracy.. Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
> I want the one good world, not a dozen crappy ones. Marcus
<grin> as do all religious zealots of all stripes from everywhere! </grin> The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu... I understand why others might want the swamp drained and a condo custom built for them with all the amenities, but I embrace the swamp (for the most part). or at least wallow in it. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Edward Angel
Edward Angel wrote at 02/08/2013 12:57 PM:
> For many years > graphics and mathematical software was driven by the scientific > community which valued stability and backward compatibility. When the > market became dominated by game players who are willing to replace their > entire systems every year, the business changed dramatically, not only > in terms of the software but also in terms of the hardware. Arg! You piqued me again. ;-) I know lots of gamers who don't merely value backward compatibility, they go to ungodly extremes to maintain old systems/games, port old games to new systems, build emulators for old games, etc. But my pique isn't to argue about whether gamers value backward compatibility. It's a common thread I've been pushing with regard to scientific modeling and simulation (M&S). For better or worse, I've taken the stance that science using M&S should be handled in the same way other science is handled. If you want to reproduce a result, you don't slice out the repeatability at some logically impermeable layer of compatibility. Instead, you keep (or reconstruct) the _machine_ that was used for the original research. To the extent that's not reasonable, then you run your experiments with an alternative machine and characterize how the variation introduced by the machine percolates into the variation in the results of the experiments. The pure (math, physics, first principles) perspective of coming up with _precise_ analogs for various machine parts is bizarre ... fine as a fetish/avocation but inappropriate as a vocation. Yes, I know this is antithetic to most compsci people ... portable code, universal turing machines, IEEE designed floating point representations, etc. But, to me, it makes the most sense. As (non-universal) computers further burrow themselves deep into our ecology, the concept of a logical abstraction layer makes less and less sense. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
"The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu..."
The swamp will always form. You don't have to care about a swamp. Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
That list of CygWin library names that Marcus posted flashed me back to a very unpleasant experience that occurred in the mid-90's or so at LANL. We had a client who refused to run on anything but Windows boxes. And he wanted to run our Synthetic Population software. Which was designed to run on Linux systems.
Guess who got the job of porting it to NT... --Doug The myriad choices for cross-platform coping is amazing IMO, whether it is at the level of Cygwin (sorry Doug) or Virtual Machines or multi-boot, or even just the myriad cross-platform dev environments/apps/etc. Doug Roberts
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Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Glen wrote:
"Instead, you keep (or reconstruct) the _machine_ that was used for the original research. To the extent that's not reasonable, then you run your experiments with an alternative machine and characterize how the variation introduced by the machine percolates into the variation in the results of the experiments." The value of forgetting... The constructive process of making the new version of the old machine makes the person/group re-examine a lot of issues that are worth re-examining, rather than taking as received wisdom. Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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[hidden email] wrote at 02/08/2013 01:45 PM:
> The value of forgetting... The constructive process of making the new > version of the old machine makes the person/group re-examine a lot of > issues that are worth re-examining, rather than taking as received wisdom. And thank Cthulu, too. Otherwise I'd have to interpret my own tendency to lose and recreate things as incompetence. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by glen ep ropella
I have no problem with people following such an approach but for most of us in the scientific community it doesn't work.
Consider two examples: mathematical software and graphics/GPU capabilities. Much of the mathematical software that is still crucial to many of us was developed back in the 50's and over the years has involved thousands of person-years of development. If that won't run on the latest hardware it is disastrous for most application users who cannot and should not have to go back and "fix" the libraries. The development of graphics hardware and software was originally driven by the scientific community. When graphics hardware moved to the chip level, games dominated because not only did the hardware become inexpensive but the game players were buying the software. The people represented on this list have gone from being major buyers of hardware and software to a very minor part of the revenue. If you look at the capabilities of GPUs, they are determined by what game players want. So, for example, those of us in the visualization community have to figure out how to use what we is available rather than having significant input into what will be available. If you want some further evidence, take a look at the membership of Kronos committees. The research and education communities are almost totally unrepresented on any of them and they are the ones that are setting the standards that will determine the next generation of hardware and software. Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon On Feb 8, 2013, at 2:19 PM, glen e. p. ropella wrote:
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Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Ed wrote:
"If you want some further evidence, take a look at the membership of Kronos committees. The research and education communities are almost totally unrepresented on any of them and they are the ones that are setting the standards that will determine the next generation of hardware and software." Sure nVidia implements OpenCL, but they do it just to check the box off. Their real investment is in CUDA. I'd say they participate to just give the appearance of being good citizens in the standardization process. I claim for such a company the standards are pursued when they serve to fight a larger monopoly, and they get minimal investment when it doesn't serve their purposes. For example, for a while AMD used OpenCL to discriminate themselves from nVidia (the little guy in *that* example). If the research or education community want to influence GPU technology, they should step up and hack on Mesa. I think the reason that GPU vendors cling so tightly to their driver & compiler software, is because their hardware is not _that_ complex. They don't want smaller players getting their fangs into their very profitable market. Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
I wrote:
"For example, for a while AMD used OpenCL to discriminate themselves from nVidia (the little guy in *that* example)." To clarify, nVidia likes OpenGL -> Microsoft is competitor with DirectX. Competitors are bad. AMD likes OpenCL -> nVidia competitor with CUDA. Competitors are bad. nVidia doesn't invest OpenCL -> No serious competitor to CUDA [etc] -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Bruce Sherwood
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 01:47:08PM -0700, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> So, Roger, you've just given additional, very compelling evidence for > Microsoft incompetence! They weren't even able to kill OpenGL! > > Seriously though, the OpenGL piece hasn't been a problem on any platform > except for Ubuntu, where off and on there's a serious problem with VPython > users trying to install a competent graphics driver. The problems that have > repeatedly come up for me with the Mac have had to do with operating system > changes, and the problems on Ubuntu (other than graphics) have been broken > libraries, in both cases in the part of the world having to do with > creating a window and handling events. > > Bruce > To add a data point to Bruce's, I'm prinicpally involved in a cross platform project called Minsky (http://minsky.sf.net). I found that the order of increasing problems was Linux, Windows, MacOSX. The code is essentially posix, although neutered down so that the MingW environment can build the code successfully. The platform independence is given by the TCL/Tk library. I was surprised that the Mac was so problematic. Part of the problem is that each and every Mac upgrade introduces different dependency layers - so for example, if I build on a 64 bit Mac, it won't run on a 32 bit version, or if I go to the trouble of doing a 32 bit build, how do I ensure all the requisite dynamic libraries are present. How do I know whether a user will have the library already there as part of the system, or need to provide a copy along with my release. The answer, after many permutations, and irate comments from my Mac users was to use VirtualBox virtual machines. I create one VM with just MacOSX as it comes on its install disk (which turns out to be a 32 bit OS), and another VM with just the above, plus the standard XCode install. Then I build the project on the latter, and test on the former. But there are also a host of other irritations. For example, you cannot specify an initial directory to open when opening a file (eg its nice to start from where you previous opened your files). This apparently is a feature, not a bug! Another one is its treatment of transparent buttons - turns out they're not so transparent after all, but are rendered in a shade of gray that is darker at the top, and lighter at the borrom. On the plus side, getting the Mac installer to work correctly took about half a day, compared with a full three days to get the equivalent stuff to work with WiX on Windows (M$ installer scripts were designed by a committee, I'm sure of it). The reason why Linux gets off so lightly? I don't even build binaries for Linux - I expect the Linux user to know how to run make, and to be sufficiently motivated to do so. I know that's not necessarily true, and getting builds into the diverse package managers out there would help takeup of my product, but at around 5-10% of my market, I'm not too concerned, provided that it is possible. The market share, according to my figures is 5-10% Linux, 20-25% Mac and 70-75% Windows. I have ocasionally seen Windows drop below 70%, but I think that was prior to Windows 7 adoption. Cheers -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
> "The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu..." Marcus noted: > The swamp will always form. You don't have to care about a swamp. I think you mean "you don't have to care *for* a swamp" ? I agree, that is why I live in a swamp. I care for my tools but let the morass flourish. CP/M <==> Go Kart in a Washtub DOS <==> Bass Boat with weak outboard motor and a bent propeller Winderz 95 <==> Above with a fancy paintjob. Winderz 2K <==> add cooler full of Bud Light Winderz NT <==> add Doritos Winderz XP <==> add ice to the cooler Winderz 7 <==> add fresh paintjob and a piezo-electric cooling element for the cooler Winderz 8 <==> munno yet, more paint, add Coors Light? MacOS <==> Jetboat with an undersized motor, nice paintjob and a small bomb in the ice chest. BSD Unix <==> Airboat with *everything* built from parts found at the hardware store, complete blueprints included. AIX/IRIX/HPUX/Solaris/etc... Airboat with various custom parts, corporate paint job, and half of the blueprints locked in the glovebox (or just wrong), high priced mini-bar filled with stale-dated items, etc. OSX <==> Airboat with unibody Titanium hull, fresh paintjob (white, black, or gloss clearcoat), built-in double fridge with a variety of frosty beverages, a selection of fresh sushi and a selection of healthy snacks. Linux <==> Airboat after 20 years of DIY tinkering, bring your own damn snacks (Jolt Cola and Twinkies or a selection of fine wines and cheeses) Command Line tools <==> good set water sandals, cutoff shorts, fishing line and hook, multi-tool, locking blade knife, flint and steel, compass, iodine, salt tablets... A good thing to have along if you know how to use them. Otherwise probably just extra baggage. > > Marcus > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - > http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Added to that, OpenCL was light years behind CUDA (at least that was
the case two years ago, when I looked at it last). I can understand nVidia making sure their product is OpenCL compatible, but putting their R&D into CUDA. To be quite honest, it is damn hard to get cutting edge R&D into APIs designed by a committee, and that probably the way it should be. More reprehensible is their attitude towards the Open Source Nouveau driver, although that may have improved since Linus spat the dummy at them. On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 05:45:46PM -0500, [hidden email] wrote: > I wrote: > > "For example, for a while AMD used OpenCL to discriminate > themselves from nVidia (the little guy in *that* example)." > > To clarify, > > nVidia likes OpenGL -> Microsoft is competitor with DirectX. Competitors > are bad. > AMD likes OpenCL -> nVidia competitor with CUDA. Competitors are bad. > nVidia doesn't invest OpenCL -> No serious competitor to CUDA > > [etc] > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
Re: Two (and more) Cultures
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve wrote:
<< I agree, that is why I live in a swamp. I care for my tools but let the morass flourish.>> Ok, let me be concrete. Consider GNU Autoconf or CMAKE. They are just a part the morass, even though they aim to cope with it. They wouldn't exist but for the morass. Huge amounts of effort go into maintaining and using these tools, and really nothing inherently valuable comes of it. It would have all been unnecessary had it not been for the swamp people, like the client Doug mentioned. Stand for something, or fall for nothing man. Marcus -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Russell Standish
In response to Marcus: Of course they work that way.
But they are far from monolithic. For example, Nvidia was the company that pushed OpenGL 3.0 to announce that starting with 3.1, a tremendous amount of functionality would be deprecated, thus rendering most existing OpenGL applications to the trash bin. Then other Nvidia people realized that was a terrible position pushed Open GL 3.2 and up to support both CORE and COMPATIBILITY profiles. In response to Russell: Cg was light years ahead of GLSL but GLSL overtook it and even though there are elements of Cg that are better than GLSL. GLSL is core to OpenGL and has evolved so it performs well. Cg is now pretty head. I would expect the same to happen with CUDA and OpenCL. What may be more relevant is WebGL and the soon to be released WebCL. In practice, the standards are less designed by committee than by a few members of the committees who put in infinite time. In many cases, this winds up to be far worse than design by committee. Most of the recent graphics standards come from the work of a few driver writers who have almost no contact with the application community. I've had discussions with Kronos at various meetings about the problem of their committees being dominated by a handful of large commercial players. Their attitude is that the research and educational communities can participate if they buy memberships (and that would imply having someone with the time to spend). Mesa is a viable alternative except that you are still stuck with the standard that comes out of Kronos. Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon On Feb 8, 2013, at 4:22 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
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