Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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Exactly, which is why I *politely* suggest, if you care about your local book shop, do not use Amazon.
On 9/14/20 9:04 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The real objection seems to be to (not so) good old-fashioned capitalism. Amazon is just good at it. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
When we lived near Seattle, my wife worked for a while at HP, where she heard this story. Some visitors from Germany were visiting HP, and when one of them saw the clusters of smokers outside, who were mostly women, he said to his HP host, “Wow! Does HP really provide hookers for their workers?” Just an opposing data point for your comment “very few professional smoke.” You neglected the oldest profession. —Barry On 13 Sep 2020, at 22:21, Frank Wimberly wrote:
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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In reply to this post by gepr
On 9/14/20 9:51 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Well, the argument is not mainly that they're too big. It's that they use offensive marketing tactics to *kill* smaller "competitors" ... e.g. diapers.com. You know, good old fashioned capitalism. If they didn't engage in that sort of thing, they wouldn't be villains. The "natural" reduction to the mediocre that happens in monopoly or oligopoly isn't as much of a concern. And their consistent mistreatment of their delivery workers (not their IT workers) is also not the main concern. If, as RussS argues, they were simply more competent, then the "freedom" of the market might be enough to allow a radical idea to disrupt them. But it's not mere competence. Amazon is anti-freedom and predatory. I think "online shopping" in general has proven to be an effective competitor to "mall shopping" as "malls" became effective competitors to "main street", and I suppose "main street" to the old-school "general store" model. It is a reverse-backflow system where some aspects of the "business" improve while others flail. The mall has *everything you want* compared even to a rich mainstreet selection, but you have to drive out to the suburbs and hike across a 1000 acre parking lot, but are rewarded by ambient entertainment, air conditioning and an invitation to use them for senior exercise walks. > > Besides, this government will not break them up. Amazon is way more powerful than the Trump admin, despite Trump's idiotic personal vendetta. Yup, but it felt like Elizabeth would like to "rain hell down on them" like an early c20 Trust Buster if she'd gotten hold of the reins (for better or worse). I paradoxically drive past small hardware stores on my way to "the big box" too often, though usually only when I am confident the local doesn't have what I need, and after I've checked in on "do I really NEED what I can only find at the big box". Before COVID I studiously eschewed *marts but still went to Target and Sams as if they were qualitatively different (whilst also doing the calculus of the big-box hardware store example when I could). COVID had me going back to my DIY roots and trying desperately NOT to think I needed ANYTHING from ANY of those places.... just as practice for the Apocalypse, should it come (yes, it is still inevitable, just not sure what time-scale). Speaking of which, our flock of 8 hens is finally producing 5-7 eggs a day which is only slightly more than we are eating... but now we have a racoon who jumped the 8' courtyard wall (an interesting obstacle at best, not an obstruction for him) and shat on the roof of our coop (knocked together from my hoards of salvaged supplies) last night. Time to double-down on fasteners and get the dog habituated to the chickens (while in their coop at least)... I'd rather not have to figure out how to pass Raccoon Stew off to Mary as vegetarian. <anecdote meant to reinforce the value and hazards of distributed sourcing of goods and services> - Steve > > On 9/14/20 8:47 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote: >> Which, by transitivity must mean animosity toward the 40% of idiot citizens who keep such radical ideas from having a chance in hell of happening. >> >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon. If it is too big, then use the force of government to break it up. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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In reply to this post by gepr
The rules of the game, and the supervision of the system allows for predatory behavior, yet as consumers we should try to collectively compensate around the margins? Aren't the adaptive responses to 1) become a predator or 2) demand the system be changed, or both? Before the robots take over for Amazon delivery, I want to see a few plausible Trumpers delivering my Lysol. (The books I'll transfer electronically.)
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 9:08 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Exactly, which is why I *politely* suggest, if you care about your local book shop, do not use Amazon. On 9/14/20 9:04 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The real objection seems to be to (not so) good old-fashioned capitalism. Amazon is just good at it. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Yes, online shopping does seem to be directly analogous to mall and big box shopping, engine oil right next to the organic apples! What's not to love?
More importantly, monopolies like Amazon demonstrate, once again, that the computer is less flexible than the humans using the computer. Their undermining of Etsy with "handmade" is a great example. I use Etsy to buy from locals. The narrative we were fed for "online shopping" was a diversification of vendors with a unification of end point (your door). [⛧] But what we end up with is a unification of vendor (Amazon), through an exploitation of workers and institutions, to a unification of destination. This hearkens back to wealth inequality and the permanent underclass capitalism requires. I think it's a mistake to desperately optimize away from "needing" anything. But maybe it's purely philosophical. Part of the reason I prefer the local hardware store is because the people in there help me solve problems, regardless of whether I buy anything. Of the box stores, Lowe's seems the most interested in problem solving, but still not good. The local hardware (and feed) store people seem to get a real kick out of it when I come in with a problem to solve ... e.g. hanging a movable welding screen from a > 20' ceiling. The people at the box stores could not care less. That social interaction, along with the pub, are about all I really get in meat space. Were I as creative or handy as you, I wouldn't need/have that social interaction at all. I used to get something similar at the book stores, not so much at Powell's, but the smaller ones. The maker spaces I used to go to had similar issues ... purchasing electronic components online is waaaay different than going to the local pack-rat dork vendor who would help you build the device with you. So, it's less about only buying what you need, and more about social learning/production. Ebooks and online shopping just does not compare and I feel sorry for those who do all their reading, making, thinking, and drinking alone in their basements. [⛧] We were fed that narrative for personal computers, media sources, music artists, etc. Each time, the oligarchs manage to find a way to exploit resources (including duped consumers) in order to funnel wealth to their passive investments. On 9/14/20 9:30 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I think "online shopping" in general has proven to be an effective > competitor to "mall shopping" as "malls" became effective competitors to > "main street", and I suppose "main street" to the old-school "general > store" model. It is a reverse-backflow system where some aspects of > the "business" improve while others flail. The mall has *everything > you want* compared even to a rich mainstreet selection, but you have to > drive out to the suburbs and hike across a 1000 acre parking lot, but > are rewarded by ambient entertainment, air conditioning and an > invitation to use them for senior exercise walks. > > Yup, but it felt like Elizabeth would like to "rain hell down on them" > like an early c20 Trust Buster if she'd gotten hold of the reins (for > better or worse). > > I paradoxically drive past small hardware stores on my way to "the big > box" too often, though usually only when I am confident the local > doesn't have what I need, and after I've checked in on "do I really NEED > what I can only find at the big box". Before COVID I studiously > eschewed *marts but still went to Target and Sams as if they were > qualitatively different (whilst also doing the calculus of the big-box > hardware store example when I could). > > COVID had me going back to my DIY roots and trying desperately NOT to > think I needed ANYTHING from ANY of those places.... just as practice > for the Apocalypse, should it come (yes, it is still inevitable, just > not sure what time-scale). Speaking of which, our flock of 8 hens is > finally producing 5-7 eggs a day which is only slightly more than we are > eating... but now we have a racoon who jumped the 8' courtyard wall > (an interesting obstacle at best, not an obstruction for him) and shat > on the roof of our coop (knocked together from my hoards of salvaged > supplies) last night. Time to double-down on fasteners and get the dog > habituated to the chickens (while in their coop at least)... I'd > rather not have to figure out how to pass Raccoon Stew off to Mary as > vegetarian. > > <anecdote meant to reinforce the value and hazards of distributed > sourcing of goods and services> -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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Seductive it is.Yes, online shopping does seem to be directly analogous to mall and big box shopping, engine oil right next to the organic apples! What's not to love? I try to use Etsy, but the lines between Etsy, Amazon, eBay and AliExpress are getting blurred enough I lose track. I recently bought a handmade longbow for Mary via Etsy from what felt like a proper one-man shop, but when I couldn't raise them to change the shipping address (my bad) and ask them to tiller it for a slightly higher draw weight (Mary's amazon physique had already mastered a 35# training bow), I could get no response whatsoever, so I started looking around and discovered that they also sold on Amazon and the "shopfront" there made it evident that they'd transcended "family business" to something bigger... still probably cottage-industry scale. When we got the bow (never got an acknowledgement but they DID ship it to the right address and it DOES appear to be a 45# draw to my feel) the finish and packaging suggested that they were turning out tens of these a day... not the same as a factory, but not the same as a guy or gal sitting in front of their fireplace shaving down a stick into a bow. This is all nit-picking if I"m criticising this vendor... whoever/whatever they are, I'm happy for them and they got my order right, and *I* was the one who wanted the product for $60 when there were *plenty* of (mostly SCA/Reenactor) options for $200. I still "shop" Etsy for what feels like righteous products and both of my creative adult daughters have Etsy shops where sometimes some of their creative products get sold...More importantly, monopolies like Amazon demonstrate, once again, that the computer is less flexible than the humans using the computer. Their undermining of Etsy with "handmade" is a great example. I use Etsy to buy from locals. I *still* find myself thinking "I'll check Amazon for that" when I really mean "I'll check ONLINE for that" and then veering away from big-box stores online for one reason and small independents for others and settling on Amazon. I have *forced* myself to use Amazon Day delivery (condense any orders within the week to a single delivery day) and Smile (small donation to non-profit of my choice), but that feels more like guilt-amelioration than anything.The narrative we were fed for "online shopping" was a diversification of vendors with a unification of end point (your door). [⛧] But what we end up with is a unification of vendor (Amazon), through an exploitation of workers and institutions, to a unification of destination. I'm always game to hear about what *have to be* myriad alternatives or variations of the reality (manic hypercapitalism) or the ideal (mere free-market capitalism) we live in.This hearkens back to wealth inequality and the permanent underclass capitalism requires. That was just a knee jerk toward "getting ready for the apocalypse"... it's easier to tune up skills and establish personal infrastructure (herd of chickens) when you aren't starving in the dark.I think it's a mistake to desperately optimize away from "needing" anything. I think it is *partly* philosophical... and can maybe be more well explored in the abstract hindsight of just what each of us would do if we know what we know now, but found ourselves on the Titanic just as it hit the iceberg. We have a few hours to sort ourselves out from top to bottom, what do we do? Anecdotally, the "Orchestra Played On" and I admire/respect that. As well as those who worked hard to get the lifeboats in the water without more loss of life and supplies than neccessary. But not so much the ones who had already picked out the best ones, hoarded extra supplies aboard, and then got there first and fought off the "women and children" that might have competed with them for those supplies as they caste off with an elite crew aboard (my apprehension of what a modern Libertarian would do).But maybe it's purely philosophical. I enjoy my current local hardware... my previous local hardware tended toward "overhelpful". There are hardwares virtually everywhere who typify the best of these things, and I am thankful for them. I have not visited, but hear great things about Arandas across the Street (Hickox?) from the TuneUp in SFe. Independent Bookstores, Farmers Markets and Coffee Shops and even Grocers the same. But the imbalances in "the Market" make it hard, just as "one-stop shopping" at the big-box, mall (or even mainstreet) and now Amazon is seductive if not always in one's best (broad or long-term) interest.Part of the reason I prefer the local hardware store is because the people in there help me solve problems, regardless of whether I buy anything. Of the box stores, Lowe's seems the most interested in problem solving, but still not good. The local hardware (and feed) store people seem to get a real kick out of it when I come in with a problem to solve ... e.g. hanging a movable welding screen from a > 20' ceiling. The people at the box stores could not care less. That social interaction, along with the pub, are about all I really get in meat space. Were I as creative or handy as you, I wouldn't need/have that social interaction at all. au contraire... my "handiness" just means that I have *more* projects in the pipeline with *more* (maybe not) interesting challenges for my local hardware. I really wish for a similar "electronics" equivalent... Radio Shack is defunct (and hadn't been much good for that for decades) but some of the big cities may still have their own variations (I can't remember the classic names of such in Silicon Valley?). You mention Maker Spaces below. I may be making up a big batch of homemade salsa from my
tomatoes, onions, garlic, and green chiles, but I'll still pick up
some other peppers, limes, avocados and cilantro from my local
market. I may be using creek rock (instead of some
industrial-store-bought facade material) to face the foundation of
my sunroom, but I'll still buy the stucco-mesh, cement/mortar at
my local hardware. And maybe, just maybe, if those were not
available, my sunroom would still get a nice facade of rock, but
the mud-mortar/chinking would need annual maintenance, and would
flat *disappear* in a decade or so if *I* went away, which might
be better for all concerned. Yes, like that. I *barely* engaged with the Santa Fe Maker Space before Covid shut everything down... they did host a DYI network of mask/face-shield/PPE makers that I hooked a prolific 3D printing friend into, but the interest I'd have in such would be for the interactions you speak of. I was gathering the spare powertools I inherited from a few different places, to gift them when that came down. That was one aspect of SFx that I felt like we sort of got right... but it could/should have been even moreso, fostering small-group engagement and creative interaction.I used to get something similar at the book stores, not so much at Powell's, but the smaller ones. The maker spaces I used to go to had similar issues ... purchasing electronic components online is waaaay different than going to the local pack-rat dork vendor who would help you build the device with you. What's a basement?So, it's less about only buying what you need, and more about social learning/production. Ebooks and online shopping just does not compare and I feel sorry for those who do all their reading, making, thinking, and drinking alone in their basements. [⛧] We were fed that narrative for personal computers, media sources, music artists, etc. Each time, the oligarchs manage to find a way to exploit resources (including duped consumers) in order to funnel wealth to their passive investments. Yes, we are duped consumers and sometimes I am proud to spend
significant personal resource trying not to be as much of a
"duped", while other times I resent the hell out of having to work
so hard at not being "part of the problem" (which of course, no
matter how hard I try, I still am). Mary loves Starbucks'
almond-milk Latte's and despite having everything to make similar
ourselves, I've fallen into the habit of joining her in a Vente
Almond-Milk Latte with an umbrella-on-top when we are out,
especially after an hour of swimming. We just don't find any
other source of that particular drink (including our own version)
as satisfying. With our wicked-cold snap last week we went
further and downloaded the Curbside App so we could order/pay
online and have them walk it out to us as we arrive (geeeze!) but
there was a snafu today trying it the first time and I ran through
the order top to bottom only to discover that this particular
drink specialty has 20g of carbs which happens to be my full daily
budget on my (yes, once again... for 1-2 months every summer)
Ketogenic diet. Neither Espresso nor Almond Milk nor Water have
virtually ANY carbs... so I asked the nice girl at the counter
(never got the app to work right) about it, she didn't know but
did pull out the (Starbucks brand) Almond Milk and sure enough IT
had 20g of carbs and sugar was in fact second ingredient. No
*wonder* I am eager for a "hit of Starbucks" after swimming! Not
a problem at all if I wasn't trying to maintain ketogenesis!
Caveat Emptor! You make me long for living in a healthy "neighborhood" with some
of these services within a short walk, and a chance at more
like-minded neighbors. The Pojoaque Valley still has 3
identifiable "Tiendita" shopfronts evident that have probably not
been open for business since the 50's (now part of the private
homes/compounds built behind/around them). There were probably a
couple more that have been razed or refaced out of recognition
along the way. But would I walk 1/4 mile for a quart of milk
when I can drive 9 miles and get USB phone cord, a Lotto ticket,
some Twinkies and a 12pack of fancy beer also? Berkeley/Oakland had a few of these "neighborhoods" when I lived
there... though I rarely walked to any of them. Our "corner
grocery" was an overfancy, overpriced Whole Foods which I *did*
walk to. It was probably a 30 minute walk to the Telegraph
section in one direction, and 30 minutes the other way to
Rockridge... but I very rarely walked them... bah! Mary and I
are equally against bucket-lists, but on the list we don't have is
trying a few short stints (3-12 months) living in a city as we get
tired of tending chickens and gardens and trying to ignore the
neighbor's constant spraying of roundup and mowing their dirt to a
fine powder. As a writer, that IS her work (finding more and
different stimulation and subjects) and my own work (such as it
is) is more remote-able than ever. I'd like to do this *after*
lounging in a street cafe doesn't have to be a health hazard (to
us or others). Or maybe we can just renormalize to whatever
becomes the new normal in those contexts. - Steve On 9/14/20 9:30 AM, Steve Smith wrote:I think "online shopping" in general has proven to be an effective competitor to "mall shopping" as "malls" became effective competitors to "main street", and I suppose "main street" to the old-school "general store" model. It is a reverse-backflow system where some aspects of the "business" improve while others flail. The mall has *everything you want* compared even to a rich mainstreet selection, but you have to drive out to the suburbs and hike across a 1000 acre parking lot, but are rewarded by ambient entertainment, air conditioning and an invitation to use them for senior exercise walks. Yup, but it felt like Elizabeth would like to "rain hell down on them" like an early c20 Trust Buster if she'd gotten hold of the reins (for better or worse). I paradoxically drive past small hardware stores on my way to "the big box" too often, though usually only when I am confident the local doesn't have what I need, and after I've checked in on "do I really NEED what I can only find at the big box". Before COVID I studiously eschewed *marts but still went to Target and Sams as if they were qualitatively different (whilst also doing the calculus of the big-box hardware store example when I could). COVID had me going back to my DIY roots and trying desperately NOT to think I needed ANYTHING from ANY of those places.... just as practice for the Apocalypse, should it come (yes, it is still inevitable, just not sure what time-scale). Speaking of which, our flock of 8 hens is finally producing 5-7 eggs a day which is only slightly more than we are eating... but now we have a racoon who jumped the 8' courtyard wall (an interesting obstacle at best, not an obstruction for him) and shat on the roof of our coop (knocked together from my hoards of salvaged supplies) last night. Time to double-down on fasteners and get the dog habituated to the chickens (while in their coop at least)... I'd rather not have to figure out how to pass Raccoon Stew off to Mary as vegetarian. <anecdote meant to reinforce the value and hazards of distributed sourcing of goods and services> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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I still think some form of anarcho-syndicalism is plausible: https://mises.org/library/anarcho-syndicalism-recipe-ruin
But there are some intense local minima we have to go through to get there. On 9/14/20 1:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > I'm always game to hear about what *have to be* myriad alternatives or variations of the reality (manic hypercapitalism) or the ideal (mere free-market capitalism) we live in. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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The sociological equivalent of tunneling through an energy barrier must be anarcho-syndicalism (which sounds a lot like organized crime) and heating the system up, revolution?
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 3:37 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats I still think some form of anarcho-syndicalism is plausible: https://mises.org/library/anarcho-syndicalism-recipe-ruin But there are some intense local minima we have to go through to get there. On 9/14/20 1:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > I'm always game to hear about what *have to be* myriad alternatives or > variations of the reality (manic hypercapitalism) or the ideal (mere free-market capitalism) we live in. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Well, as Steve's question hints, there's a difference between the limit and the process that approaches the limit. Anarcho-syndicalism isn't tunneling. Unions, labor, community organizing, etc. are tunneling. And anarcho-syndicalism would be the state to which they're tunneling. [⛧] I'm a bit torn between social democracy and anarcho-syndicalism, though. Social democracy seems like a kind of 80/20 compromise ... lipstick on a pig. But visions of anarcho-syndicalism seem either way too vague, or come with too much special pleading. I tend to think anything that will eventually work will be ugly ... because reality is ugly. I enjoyed Sabine Hossenfelder's stubbornness here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbe5KGaQY
[⛧] Revolution achieves nothing but the chance for one set of idealists to take over from another set of idealists, putting in place ridiculous abstractions that foment pain as the details are "worked out". On 9/14/20 3:57 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The sociological equivalent of tunneling through an energy barrier must be anarcho-syndicalism (which sounds a lot like organized crime) and heating the system up, revolution? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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Well, I think of a son of a friend of mine. He seems bewildered as to why he should vote. To him, the revolution will come and will change things in unrecognizable ways. What fraction of the population has to ignore the law or use violence to be analogous to heating? Where energy barriers are small compared to the kinetics of individuals? Or it just never happens?
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 4:11 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Well, as Steve's question hints, there's a difference between the limit and the process that approaches the limit. Anarcho-syndicalism isn't tunneling. Unions, labor, community organizing, etc. are tunneling. And anarcho-syndicalism would be the state to which they're tunneling. [⛧] I'm a bit torn between social democracy and anarcho-syndicalism, though. Social democracy seems like a kind of 80/20 compromise ... lipstick on a pig. But visions of anarcho-syndicalism seem either way too vague, or come with too much special pleading. I tend to think anything that will eventually work will be ugly ... because reality is ugly. I enjoyed Sabine Hossenfelder's stubbornness here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWbe5KGaQY [⛧] Revolution achieves nothing but the chance for one set of idealists to take over from another set of idealists, putting in place ridiculous abstractions that foment pain as the details are "worked out". On 9/14/20 3:57 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The sociological equivalent of tunneling through an energy barrier must be anarcho-syndicalism (which sounds a lot like organized crime) and heating the system up, revolution? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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The "heating" refers to an over-simplified optimization analogy, particularly low-dimensional and where the landscape is static. If you allow more nuanced actions other than breaking the law or violence, then the "heat" can be anything from walking down main street with a BLM sign to gathering initiative signatures to pretty much any other form of action.
What fraction of the population has to "get involved" in these non-voting ways? The answer depends on the type of "heat" you want to generate. Our snowflake trigger cancel culture is working to some extent. Our "bring your guns to town" culture is working to some extent. Use of tools like onion routing work. Etc. If the son of your friend is too lazy or disinterested to come up with his own satisfying ways to act, now, then it's difficult for me to prescribe one action or another, much less how *emphatic* he should be in those actions. On 9/14/20 4:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Well, I think of a son of a friend of mine. He seems bewildered as to why he should vote. To him, the revolution will come and will change things in unrecognizable ways. What fraction of the population has to ignore the law or use violence to be analogous to heating? Where energy barriers are small compared to the kinetics of individuals? Or it just never happens? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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Ok, repeated unusually big wildfires or hurricanes would not be of the revolution type of perturbation because those are less coupled to a low-dimensional artificial control system. Revolutionaries are just turning knobs in ham-handed ways trying to change a much more complicated system without really knowing what one is doing. The system rebounds to an equilibrium.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 4:34 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats The "heating" refers to an over-simplified optimization analogy, particularly low-dimensional and where the landscape is static. If you allow more nuanced actions other than breaking the law or violence, then the "heat" can be anything from walking down main street with a BLM sign to gathering initiative signatures to pretty much any other form of action. What fraction of the population has to "get involved" in these non-voting ways? The answer depends on the type of "heat" you want to generate. Our snowflake trigger cancel culture is working to some extent. Our "bring your guns to town" culture is working to some extent. Use of tools like onion routing work. Etc. If the son of your friend is too lazy or disinterested to come up with his own satisfying ways to act, now, then it's difficult for me to prescribe one action or another, much less how *emphatic* he should be in those actions. On 9/14/20 4:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Well, I think of a son of a friend of mine. He seems bewildered as to why he should vote. To him, the revolution will come and will change things in unrecognizable ways. What fraction of the population has to ignore the law or use violence to be analogous to heating? Where energy barriers are small compared to the kinetics of individuals? Or it just never happens? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Well, the 2nd part of my response was the dynamic landscape. The equilibrium to which it [re]bounds to is NOT the same as the previous equilibrium. And, along with my objection to SteveG's use of "phase transition" in social systems, it's not even clear to me that any kind of *objective* equilibrium was ever reached in the first place. A very slow change can look relatively stable compared to a very fast change. And any such pseudo-equilibrium may well simply represent the abstraction *away* from whatever underlying mechanism continues to change radically, perhaps resulting in a kind of polyphenism.
All that's simply to say that it's not clear to me your analogy to optimization is very reliable. Anarcho-syndicalism is attractive because it *should* (but probably wouldn't) allow for a dynamic foam of non-equilibrium growth and shrinking of various interest groups, in direct response to the environment created by the other groups (and the actual, geo-rate environment). Social democracy approximates that diversity of group size/rate with large, more stable structures providing the effective equilibrium into which the smaller, faster structures settle and, perhaps churn. The trick is that social democracy enshrines some large structures which may turn out to be part of the problem. So, it might lack some dynamism that anarcho-syndicalism has. On 9/14/20 5:01 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Ok, repeated unusually big wildfires or hurricanes would not be of the revolution type of perturbation because those are less coupled to a low-dimensional artificial control system. Revolutionaries are just turning knobs in ham-handed ways trying to change a much more complicated system without really knowing what one is doing. The system rebounds to an equilibrium. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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It depends whether you think of "static" as some circumscribed state or "static" as a fixed functional form. (The latter still allowing for a dynamical system.) The appropriation/application of the notion of a "phase transition" would probably argue for the fixed functional form on the basis of physics.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 5:23 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Well, the 2nd part of my response was the dynamic landscape. The equilibrium to which it [re]bounds to is NOT the same as the previous equilibrium. And, along with my objection to SteveG's use of "phase transition" in social systems, it's not even clear to me that any kind of *objective* equilibrium was ever reached in the first place. A very slow change can look relatively stable compared to a very fast change. And any such pseudo-equilibrium may well simply represent the abstraction *away* from whatever underlying mechanism continues to change radically, perhaps resulting in a kind of polyphenism. All that's simply to say that it's not clear to me your analogy to optimization is very reliable. Anarcho-syndicalism is attractive because it *should* (but probably wouldn't) allow for a dynamic foam of non-equilibrium growth and shrinking of various interest groups, in direct response to the environment created by the other groups (and the actual, geo-rate environment). Social democracy approximates that diversity of group size/rate with large, more stable structures providing the effective equilibrium into which the smaller, faster structures settle and, perhaps churn. The trick is that social democracy enshrines some large structures which may turn out to be part of the problem. So, it might lack some dynamism that anarcho-syndicalism has. On 9/14/20 5:01 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Ok, repeated unusually big wildfires or hurricanes would not be of the revolution type of perturbation because those are less coupled to a low-dimensional artificial control system. Revolutionaries are just turning knobs in ham-handed ways trying to change a much more complicated system without really knowing what one is doing. The system rebounds to an equilibrium. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Well, sure. But the assumptions and simplifications are piling up fast. With anarcho-capitalism, I was trying to suggest a governing system that relies on as few assumptions as possible. And my sense is that social democracy relies on more assumptions (like the existence of stable functional forms).
On September 14, 2020 6:13:33 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >It depends whether you think of "static" as some circumscribed state or >"static" as a fixed functional form. (The latter still allowing for a >dynamical system.) The appropriation/application of the notion of a >"phase transition" would probably argue for the fixed functional form >on the basis of physics. -- glen ⛧ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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Using statistical mechanics to inspire a stable and universal functional form that evolves in time is one way to make a model of social systems. But even with that for model of the physical world, there are many possible models for control systems that could layer on top of it. If there are no shared concept types in these different models, there's nothing to do but go back to simulating the physics to determine what could happen next. Simulating these physics takes energy that is of no discernable value to users of any one model so at some point there will be conflict over that energy. The Libertarian claims that there is something in common between the users of these models, but it is nothing more than story that serves her purposes. There is no reason not to violate her sovereignty if the reward/risk is acceptable.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 7:18 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Well, sure. But the assumptions and simplifications are piling up fast. With anarcho-capitalism, I was trying to suggest a governing system that relies on as few assumptions as possible. And my sense is that social democracy relies on more assumptions (like the existence of stable functional forms). On September 14, 2020 6:13:33 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >It depends whether you think of "static" as some circumscribed state or >"static" as a fixed functional form. (The latter still allowing for a >dynamical system.) The appropriation/application of the notion of a >"phase transition" would probably argue for the fixed functional form >on the basis of physics. -- glen ⛧ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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I'd argue that, as long as there's common structure between the agents building and using the control layer models, then there will be shared concepts in and of those models. And it's not *only* the Libertarian who claims there's shared structure between the builders/users. As I've tried to *ask* w.r.t. to inter-species mind-reading, don't most complex animals "assume" some shared structure, not only between them and their kin, but between them and their predators/prey and symbiotic species? And if your dog does it, then it's likely Capitalists and Socialists also do it.
Of course, the extent to, and rate at, which such shared structures change through time is the gist of this conversation. On 9/14/20 8:16 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Using statistical mechanics to inspire a stable and universal functional form that evolves in time is one way to make a model of social systems. But even with that for model of the physical world, there are many possible models for control systems that could layer on top of it. If there are no shared concept types in these different models, there's nothing to do but go back to simulating the physics to determine what could happen next. Simulating these physics takes energy that is of no discernable value to users of any one model so at some point there will be conflict over that energy. The Libertarian claims that there is something in common between the users of these models, but it is nothing more than story that serves her purposes. There is no reason not to violate her sovereignty if the reward/risk is acceptable. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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There is some mutual information between reports on Fox and MSNBC commentary shows: The topic is sort of the same, but the interpretation attracts or repels. Then there's another class of topics, like disregard for the homeless, or the use and abuse of certain animals that is widespread but is more like a weak or glassy coupling vs. a strong repulsive relation as seen in the political case. The distinction is between agents that are adversaries vs. agents to be controlled (e.g. mice in the walls) or exploited (cattle).
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 6:17 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats I'd argue that, as long as there's common structure between the agents building and using the control layer models, then there will be shared concepts in and of those models. And it's not *only* the Libertarian who claims there's shared structure between the builders/users. As I've tried to *ask* w.r.t. to inter-species mind-reading, don't most complex animals "assume" some shared structure, not only between them and their kin, but between them and their predators/prey and symbiotic species? And if your dog does it, then it's likely Capitalists and Socialists also do it. Of course, the extent to, and rate at, which such shared structures change through time is the gist of this conversation. On 9/14/20 8:16 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Using statistical mechanics to inspire a stable and universal functional form that evolves in time is one way to make a model of social systems. But even with that for model of the physical world, there are many possible models for control systems that could layer on top of it. If there are no shared concept types in these different models, there's nothing to do but go back to simulating the physics to determine what could happen next. Simulating these physics takes energy that is of no discernable value to users of any one model so at some point there will be conflict over that energy. The Libertarian claims that there is something in common between the users of these models, but it is nothing more than story that serves her purposes. There is no reason not to violate her sovereignty if the reward/risk is acceptable. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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This is exactly the type of observation the ideal of anarcho-syndicalism would foster. Ideally, we could *induce* the current structure from such coupling patterns, including higher order couplings (like tertiary couplings -- "interpretations" -- to other couplings). With the induction tools, we can infer the current structure as well. We could argue for "evidence based policy", a data-driven socio-political modeling tool. But because our political structure is mostly top-down (e.g. Constitutional Republic), it *seems* more facile to use typical economic models rather than inducing models from data. Adopting a minimal-assumption ideal like anarcho-syndicalism can help seed the induction. But only as long as we continually remember it's an ideal, not a practical objective.
As we get good at such induction, we could do it periodically, in different geographic regions, in different demographics, etc. That might provide some data for how universal particular structures are, rates of change for particular structures, the distribution of structure sizes, etc. A social democratic system might, then, be approached by codifying the larger more stable structures into policy/law, while allowing the smaller less stable structures the freedom to wiggle. On 9/15/20 8:30 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > There is some mutual information between reports on Fox and MSNBC commentary shows: The topic is sort of the same, but the interpretation attracts or repels. Then there's another class of topics, like disregard for the homeless, or the use and abuse of certain animals that is widespread but is more like a weak or glassy coupling vs. a strong repulsive relation as seen in the political case. The distinction is between agents that are adversaries vs. agents to be controlled (e.g. mice in the walls) or exploited (cattle). -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
So.... delayed response to the original... based on the longer reviews I've seen, this is partially a criticism of meritocracy itself, but also a very strong criticism of the neo-liberal bastardization of meritocracy. As it says in the opening line of the review in the original post: The thing being criticized are "pernicious assumptions" about merit. From what I can tell, his TED talk summarizes the book well: https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sandel_the_tyranny_of_merit He starts out with some discussion of moral luck, but in my opinion not a great discussion of it. Then he moves on to criticize a world where pieces of paper are confused for ability. In such a world, those without the right pieces of paper are deemed to lack merit and are told they can't have dignity. That part is criticizing a world in which our leaders continuously message that everyone should go to college, encouraging a false belief that a getting a degree somehow magically makes you successful, and encouraging the implicit (or sometimes explicit) judgement that not getting a degree somehow a personal failure and that getting a degree and then not succeeding is an incoherent position to be in. The failure of that program of thought has been huge. It is hard to explain how many of the students I taught at Penn State Altoona had their lives made worse by getting a degree. They are working the same jobs they could have worked out of high school, but with 4 years less experience, added shame and frustration, crippling debt, and a worse relationship with parents who can't understand why having a degree hasn't made their kids successful. And you can't try to defend this by hand-waving at education being virtuous in its own right, but it won't work, because by any reasonable measure they aren't very educated either. Even with as right as some parts of that critique are, it is all somehow seething with the suspect rhetoric of the protestant work ethic. There is nothing inherently virtuous in being exploited for your labor (in the Marxist sense of providing profit to a capitalist), and he is somehow lumping all "work" together in a way that obscures that. When all is said and done, it is an interesting argument, but my Libertarian Goat is doing fine, thank you :- ) On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 1:28 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
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