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Getting You Libertarians' Goats

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thompnickson2

Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

More luck. Luck isn't the only thing but it's important. Nick Hanauer says that years ago he had a couple million to invest and he was presented with a couple of venture capital opportunities. He had no idea which to choose so he essentially flipped a coin. His choice was Amazon and he's now a multi-billionaire.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Yes, but so what? If there is a lottery system for top universities (per the abstract), how is that substantially different from just viewing individuals a cluster of particles in the expanding universe? It’s one kind of luck or another.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Agreed.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 12:21 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, but so what? If there is a lottery system for top universities (per the abstract), how is that substantially different from just viewing individuals a cluster of particles in the expanding universe? It’s one kind of luck or another.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

More luck. Luck isn't the only thing but it's important. Nick Hanauer says that years ago he had a couple million to invest and he was presented with a couple of venture capital opportunities. He had no idea which to choose so he essentially flipped a coin. His choice was Amazon and he's now a multi-billionaire.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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thompnickson2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Yes, but ….

We don’t fetishize “achievement” and we keep taking money and educational opportunity off the top and pouring it in at the bottom, not because we have empathy for those poor people but because we recognize that there-but-for-the-grace-of-God go we.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 12:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Agreed.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 12:21 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, but so what? If there is a lottery system for top universities (per the abstract), how is that substantially different from just viewing individuals a cluster of particles in the expanding universe? It’s one kind of luck or another.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 11:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

More luck. Luck isn't the only thing but it's important. Nick Hanauer says that years ago he had a couple million to invest and he was presented with a couple of venture capital opportunities. He had no idea which to choose so he essentially flipped a coin. His choice was Amazon and he's now a multi-billionaire.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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thompnickson2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Frank,

What was the other?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Hanauer might remember. I doubt that anyone else knows.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 1:17 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

What was the other?

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

More luck. Luck isn't the only thing but it's important. Nick Hanauer says that years ago he had a couple million to invest and he was presented with a couple of venture capital opportunities. He had no idea which to choose so he essentially flipped a coin. His choice was Amazon and he's now a multi-billionaire.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
Taking the view that success is nothing more than an outcome of a random percolation process, the individuals on the `winning’ end of that percolation process are significantly different from the people that got stuck somehow. They have more skills, more knowledge, more contacts, more experience. Yes there are arguable counter examples: PhDs that do management and lose their technical edge, or individuals that are too specialized to do anything very useful. But by in large it is helpful to be around people that study and solve hard problems for a living and accumulate expertise. If it is a given that there are only so many slots available or needed for highly-skilled people in a society, then whether there is `justice’ for that selection isn’t really related to merit as a thing (versus as a process). What’s really needed to get more people through some kind of enriching percolation process is a *demand* for it – huge numbers of open, positions that will participate in creating diverse services people want to pay for. Then the various kinds of organizations that provide appropriate support for learning can adapt to that need.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:28 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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David Eric Smith

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.

From a friend and colleague:

https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150

The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

Eric

On Sep 13, 2020, at 1:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Carl Tollander

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the Samurai".

Carl

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.

From a friend and colleague:
https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

Eric

On Sep 13, 2020, at 1:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

My 56 year-old daughter smokes cigarettes. She is the head Latin teacher at an elite boarding school in upstate New York. I ask her why she smokes and I point out that most Latin teachers don't. It may be classist but it seems to me that very few professionals smoke. She says, "Believe me, I know". Since most places make you go outside to smoke she meets all the smokers. So, this unhealthy activity leads to mixing. Unless she's the only teacher who smokes, which is possible.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.

From a friend and colleague:
https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

Eric

On Sep 13, 2020, at 1:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

The large dog park on the bay near where I live brings all kinds of people that have at least one good quality. Mostly people are accommodating about how dogs behave or misbehave up to some limit. But there was this guy a couple days ago when it was dark all day from smoke, when almost no one came out of their house, who could make a special effort to bring out his phone to record his lecture of another person about that person’s dog that he claimed was attacking other dogs. It wasn’t significantly true as far as I could tell as I’d been in the same area for a while. With all that was wrong -- with the pandemic and the fires everywhere -- this guy could take at least 10 minutes to follow around this guy and make a miserable day even more miserable. While the lecture was proceeding the `offending’ dogs were coming up to the guy to say hi. I was hoping they’d jump for his neck. That I would have not reported on my phone.

Oh, I’m supposed to reflect on the importance of mixing. Never mind.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 7:21 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.

From a friend and colleague:

https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150

The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

Eric

On Sep 13, 2020, at 1:27 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

This should do it!

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-j-sandel/the-tyranny-of-merit/

The thesis is that “meritocracy” is the cause of the fact that the us is now the least socially mobile country among the western democracies.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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jon zingale

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

My partner, Sarah, remarked that the abstract is remarkable in that it seems
parallel (for her) to how she experiences our world today. The book is on my
reading list. Thank you.

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

I ordered a board game this morning, https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/311484/kapital, based on a mention in the New Yorker.

Roll the dice, pay 10k financial, collect 10k social, ..., oops, revolution, redistribute!

Votre commande a été acceptée, replied the publisher, not sure why a command sounds more empowering than an order.

-- rec --

On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 12:25 AM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

My partner, Sarah, remarked that the abstract is remarkable in that it seems
parallel (for her) to how she experiences our world today. The book is on my
reading list. Thank you.

--
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gepr

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

In reply to this post by Carl Tollander

And just in case you want to avoid enriching super villains like Bezos:

https://bookshop.org/books/bonds-of-civility/9780521601153
https://bookshop.org/books/the-taming-of-the-samurai-honorific-individualism-and-the-making-of-modern-japan-revised/9780674868090

And the book Steve shared:
https://bookshop.org/books/blackfoot-physics-a-journey-into-the-native-american-worldview/9781578633715

On 9/13/20 6:52 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

> Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the Samurai".
>
> Carl
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.
>
> From a friend and colleague:
> https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
> The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Glen -

Thanks for the reminder to keep on supporting local/independent if you
want them to be around later. Or because they are your neighbors. Or
of course, if you just want to stick it to Bezos like the Lilliputians
that we are!

I didn't know about this resource.   I have degenerated to routing all
of my orders through Op Cit which moved to De Vargas from SanBusco.
They try very hard to find and obtain any title and have offered Mary
that they will also add her wish list to theirs and pull books she is
looking for as they find them (they have a big backlog of unsorted and
get more every day in trade) rather than order.

They don't seem to be registered with Bookshop, nor does Big Star...
I'll follow up and see why maybe not.

- Steve

On 9/14/20 8:30 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> And just in case you want to avoid enriching super villains like Bezos:
>
> https://bookshop.org/books/bonds-of-civility/9780521601153
> https://bookshop.org/books/the-taming-of-the-samurai-honorific-individualism-and-the-making-of-modern-japan-revised/9780674868090
>
> And the book Steve shared:
> https://bookshop.org/books/blackfoot-physics-a-journey-into-the-native-american-worldview/9781578633715
>
> On 9/13/20 6:52 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>> Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the Samurai".
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.
>>
>> From a friend and colleague:
>> https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
>> The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.
>

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon. If it is too big, then use the force of government to break it up.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 8:34 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Glen -

Thanks for the reminder to keep on supporting local/independent if you want them to be around later. Or because they are your neighbors. Or of course, if you just want to stick it to Bezos like the Lilliputians that we are!

I didn't know about this resource. I have degenerated to routing all of my orders through Op Cit which moved to De Vargas from SanBusco. They try very hard to find and obtain any title and have offered Mary that they will also add her wish list to theirs and pull books she is looking for as they find them (they have a big backlog of unsorted and get more every day in trade) rather than order.

They don't seem to be registered with Bookshop, nor does Big Star... I'll follow up and see why maybe not.

- Steve

On 9/14/20 8:30 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> And just in case you want to avoid enriching super villains like Bezos:
>
> https://bookshop.org/books/bonds-of-civility/9780521601153
> https://bookshop.org/books/the-taming-of-the-samurai-honorific-individ
> ualism-and-the-making-of-modern-japan-revised/9780674868090
>
> And the book Steve shared:
> https://bookshop.org/books/blackfoot-physics-a-journey-into-the-native
> -american-worldview/9781578633715
>
> On 9/13/20 6:52 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>> Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the Samurai".
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.
>>
>> From a friend and colleague:
>> https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
>> The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.
>

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Which, by transitivity must mean animosity toward the 40% of idiot citizens who keep such radical ideas from having a chance in hell of happening.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon. If it is too big, then use the force of government to break it up.

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith

Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 8:34 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Glen -

Thanks for the reminder to keep on supporting local/independent if you want them to be around later. Or because they are your neighbors. Or of course, if you just want to stick it to Bezos like the Lilliputians that we are!

I didn't know about this resource. I have degenerated to routing all of my orders through Op Cit which moved to De Vargas from SanBusco. They try very hard to find and obtain any title and have offered Mary that they will also add her wish list to theirs and pull books she is looking for as they find them (they have a big backlog of unsorted and get more every day in trade) rather than order.

They don't seem to be registered with Bookshop, nor does Big Star... I'll follow up and see why maybe not.

- Steve

On 9/14/20 8:30 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> And just in case you want to avoid enriching super villains like Bezos:

>

> https://bookshop.org/books/bonds-of-civility/9780521601153

> https://bookshop.org/books/the-taming-of-the-samurai-honorific-individ

> ualism-and-the-making-of-modern-japan-revised/9780674868090

>

> And the book Steve shared:

> https://bookshop.org/books/blackfoot-physics-a-journey-into-the-native

> -american-worldview/9781578633715

>

> On 9/13/20 6:52 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

>> Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the Samurai".

>>

>> Carl

>>

>>

>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

>>

>> This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other, has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.

>>

>> From a friend and colleague:

>> https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150

>> The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.

>

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gepr

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Well, the argument is not mainly that they're too big. It's that they use offensive marketing tactics to *kill* smaller "competitors" ... e.g. diapers.com. You know, good old fashioned capitalism. If they didn't engage in that sort of thing, they wouldn't be villains. The "natural" reduction to the mediocre that happens in monopoly or oligopoly isn't as much of a concern. And their consistent mistreatment of their delivery workers (not their IT workers) is also not the main concern. If, as RussS argues, they were simply more competent, then the "freedom" of the market might be enough to allow a radical idea to disrupt them. But it's not mere competence. Amazon is anti-freedom and predatory.

Besides, this government will not break them up. Amazon is way more powerful than the Trump admin, despite Trump's idiotic personal vendetta.

On 9/14/20 8:47 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> Which, by transitivity must mean animosity toward the 40% of idiot citizens who keep such radical ideas from having a chance in hell of happening.
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon. If it is too big, then use the force of government to break it up.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Getting You Libertarians' Goats

The real objection seems to be to (not so) good old-fashioned capitalism. Amazon is just good at it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 8:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Well, the argument is not mainly that they're too big. It's that they use offensive marketing tactics to *kill* smaller "competitors" ... e.g. diapers.com. You know, good old fashioned capitalism. If they didn't engage in that sort of thing, they wouldn't be villains. The "natural" reduction to the mediocre that happens in monopoly or oligopoly isn't as much of a concern. And their consistent mistreatment of their delivery workers (not their IT workers) is also not the main concern. If, as RussS argues, they were simply more competent, then the "freedom" of the market might be enough to allow a radical idea to disrupt them. But it's not mere competence. Amazon is anti-freedom and predatory.

Besides, this government will not break them up. Amazon is way more powerful than the Trump admin, despite Trump's idiotic personal vendetta.

On 9/14/20 8:47 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> Which, by transitivity must mean animosity toward the 40% of idiot
> citizens who keep such radical ideas from having a chance in hell of happening.
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon. If it is too big, then use the force of government to break it up.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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