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Fwd: Winds of Change

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Douglas Roberts-2

Fwd: Winds of Change

I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into

the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this

contract with Congressmen/women.

Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.

Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive

the message.

Don't you think it's time?

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

If you agree with the above, pass it on.

Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

You might want to check this out first: http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/
Robert C

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

<snipped/>

Nick Thompson

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Great Catch, Robert. I am afraid my finger was hovering over the send button. Gawd I have such naïve fingers. I did wonder, though, about the pension claim. And also, I am not so keen on term limits, unless lobbyists also have them. Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

You might want to check this out first: http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/
Robert C

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

Joe Spinden

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it.

That said, it is not such a bad idea..

Joe Spinden

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into

the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this

contract with Congressmen/women.

Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.

Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive

the message.

Don't you think it's time?

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

If you agree with the above, pass it on.

Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
-- 

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

  -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913.

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me.

Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so "right" there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented.

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it.

That said, it is not such a bad idea..

Joe Spinden

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into

the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this

contract with Congressmen/women.

Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.

Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive

the message.

Don't you think it's time?

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

If you agree with the above, pass it on.

Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
-- "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

But that’s the point, Doug! Many of them have!

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:23 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me.

Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so "right" there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented.

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.
In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.
*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*
1. No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.
2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive
the message.

Don't you think it's time?
THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!
If you agree with the above, pass it on.

Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
-- 
 
"Sunlight is the best disinfectant."
 
  -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913.

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

And don't think I'm not grateful, Nick. I owe each and every one of you surrogate Snopes-checkers a special favor. Or, of course, you could just bill me for your time.

--Doug

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

But that’s the point, Doug! Many of them have!

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:23 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me.
Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so "right" there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented.

--Doug
--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it.

That said, it is not such a bad idea..

Joe Spinden

On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception.

On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state.

But still...

Winds of Change....

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*
1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.
2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into

the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this

contract with Congressmen/women.
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.

Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive

the message.

Don't you think it's time?
THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

If you agree with the above, pass it on.

Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
-- 
 
"Sunlight is the best disinfectant."
 
  -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus?

Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

Steve Smith

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Doug, et al-

Despite my participation in debunking the specifics of the chain-mail attributed to Warren Buffet, I am sympathetic with some if not most of it's tone and message. I believe that our political strata, both at state and federal levels are generally corrupt, sold out, or at least out of touch with what "we the people" want, and the perqs of the office only serve to make them more apart.    On the other hand, I have a nose for conspiracy theories that take any good issue and blow it out of proportion and inject their own brand of craziness.

The Founding Fathers *may have* envisioned citizen legislators, but we should also remember that at the time, *citizens* were defined by property ownership, gender and race.   So, the "Citizen Legislators" they envisioned were "landed (white) gentlemen" who were both educated and who had significant vested interests in the economy... The rest (of us?) *were* the ignorant unwashed masses to them, as I fear we continue to be to "them".

I love the phrasing you use here Doug, I'm suspecting you were quite deliberate in the allusion implied with "47% of the population *liked* Sara Palin for president".    It may not be long before most of the population believes that they can (and should be able to) elect a president over Facebook! I'd like to believe that 50% of that 47% were really "liking" Tina Fey or Lisa Ann without realizing that either of these *actresses* were not Sara herself anyway...

I've always been offended by how much our election process looks like a popularity contest. Which reminds me... is anyone following "Americans Elect" still?   I'm still getting their mailings...

- Steve

And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus?
Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: "Marcus G. Daniels" [hidden email]
Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better.

Marcus
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Steve,

Joel Grey and Liza Minille said it all: Money money money makes the world go 'round. As long as our laws allow elected Congressmen to accept corporate lobbyist special interest bribes, nothing will change.

Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus?
Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: "Marcus G. Daniels" [hidden email]
Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better.

Marcus
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Paul Paryski

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps "collapse" (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small "crises" to create change.

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Roberts <[hidden email]>
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun, Jan 8, 2012 9:29 am
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

Steve,

Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus?
Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: "Marcus G. Daniels" [hidden email]
Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better.

Marcus
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Paul Paryski

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

Steve,

Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus?
Sent from my Kindle Fire

From: "Marcus G. Daniels" [hidden email]
Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better.

Marcus
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Administrator

I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas.

Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck?

While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. Why not, for heven's sake? Shouldn't we presume that a better Dem might emerge over the last few years? Is it a law that the current party cannot have a primary?

I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars.

-- Owen

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Paul Paryski

Care to elaborate on 'we created small "crises" to create change.'?

Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but "I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death."

Gary

On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote:

And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps "collapse" (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small "crises" to create change.

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

Russ Abbott

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

According to this most of the "problems" in the chain letter aren't true and don't need fixing.

-- Russ

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Care to elaborate on 'we created small "crises" to create change.'?

Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but "I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death."

Gary

On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote:

And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps "collapse" (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small "crises" to create change.

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Owen,

“Whom the gods would drive mad…. Etc.”

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 7:22 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change

I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas.

Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck?

I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars.

-- Owen

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

There's little enough to worry about, Owen, The bluntly specific, common-sense nature of the suggestions outlined in the letter will, by their very nature, ensure that they will not be acted upon.

--Doug

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas.

Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck?

While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. Why not, for heven's sake? Shouldn't we presume that a better Dem might emerge over the last few years? Is it a law that the current party cannot have a primary?

I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Parks, Raymond

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Actually Russ, the factcheck answers are not complete and shift the argument.

The salary collection point is pointless - of course Congress critters only collect a salary while in office.

factcheck is correct about the Social Security contributions. This happened with the change-over from the Civil Service Retirement System to the Federal Employee Retirement System.

The factcheck article sidesteps the retirement point by shifting the argument to whether ordinary citizens contribute to their own pensions. Currently, Congress is covered under the Federal Employee's Retirement Act, which is quite generous in it's pension guarantees (and costing the taxpayer quite a large percentage of the budget for all the retired federal employees). No matter how one shifts the argument, the fact is that Federal employees have generous pension plans - Congress-critters or not. Federal employees fall into the top 25% of workers when it comes to retirement benefits.

As factcheck points out, Congress has voted themselves an automatic pay raise unless they vote to decline it. They have voted it down the last two years. The process is based on cost of living in DC, which is a somewhat circular process, and started after the base salary had been increased to a point high enough that public criticism forced Congress to act. Basically, they had voted themselves such high salaries that the public objected - so they started from those high salaries and kept adjusting them up, automatically, in response to the high cost of living in DC.

The health care issue is a non-issue with the understanding that Federal employee health-care benefits are much better than the average American worker.

factcheck is correct that Congress has grudgingly made themselves subject to the same labor and employment laws as the rest of the country - that process is still incomplete. However, Congress critters have not been subjected to insider trading laws - which raises the valid point of whether any laws which are strictly enforced on the rest of us can be enforced on the people holding the purse strings of the enforcers.

To answer the corporation point - I, personally, believe that corporations should not be legally defined as persons - the shareholders are persons. I also believe that the answer to campaign reform is to limit contributions and discourse (i.e. union and corporate PAC ads) to those eligible to vote in an election. I would place no limit on the amount of contribution and allow contributions funneled through voters from others - but those funds would be considered income. Also, no entity funneling money through a voter could contract with them to do so - thus, they had better trust their "contributors".

On Jan 8, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

According to this most of the "problems" in the chain letter aren't true and don't need fixing.

-- Russ

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Care to elaborate on 'we created small "crises" to create change.'?

Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but "I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death."

Gary

On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote:

And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps "collapse" (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small "crises" to create change.

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

Owen Densmore

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: Winds of Change

Administrator

Nice details Ray.

So I would think now that although factcheck provided a different view, or possibly corrections, there still remains a good deal of sense in the initial post.

-- Owen

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Parks, Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

Actually Russ, the factcheck answers are not complete and shift the argument.

The salary collection point is pointless - of course Congress critters only collect a salary while in office.

factcheck is correct about the Social Security contributions. This happened with the change-over from the Civil Service Retirement System to the Federal Employee Retirement System.

The factcheck article sidesteps the retirement point by shifting the argument to whether ordinary citizens contribute to their own pensions. Currently, Congress is covered under the Federal Employee's Retirement Act, which is quite generous in it's pension guarantees (and costing the taxpayer quite a large percentage of the budget for all the retired federal employees). No matter how one shifts the argument, the fact is that Federal employees have generous pension plans - Congress-critters or not. Federal employees fall into the top 25% of workers when it comes to retirement benefits.

As factcheck points out, Congress has voted themselves an automatic pay raise unless they vote to decline it. They have voted it down the last two years. The process is based on cost of living in DC, which is a somewhat circular process, and started after the base salary had been increased to a point high enough that public criticism forced Congress to act. Basically, they had voted themselves such high salaries that the public objected - so they started from those high salaries and kept adjusting them up, automatically, in response to the high cost of living in DC.

The health care issue is a non-issue with the understanding that Federal employee health-care benefits are much better than the average American worker.

factcheck is correct that Congress has grudgingly made themselves subject to the same labor and employment laws as the rest of the country - that process is still incomplete. However, Congress critters have not been subjected to insider trading laws - which raises the valid point of whether any laws which are strictly enforced on the rest of us can be enforced on the people holding the purse strings of the enforcers.

To answer the corporation point - I, personally, believe that corporations should not be legally defined as persons - the shareholders are persons. I also believe that the answer to campaign reform is to limit contributions and discourse (i.e. union and corporate PAC ads) to those eligible to vote in an election. I would place no limit on the amount of contribution and allow contributions funneled through voters from others - but those funds would be considered income. Also, no entity funneling money through a voter could contract with them to do so - thus, they had better trust their "contributors".

On Jan 8, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

According to this most of the "problems" in the chain letter aren't true and don't need fixing.

-- Russ

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Care to elaborate on 'we created small "crises" to create change.'?

Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but "I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death."

Gary

On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote:

And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps "collapse" (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small "crises" to create change.

cheers on a snowy day, Paul

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: <a href="tel:505-844-4024" value="+15058444024" target="_blank">505-844-4024 M: <a href="tel:505-238-9359" value="+15052389359" target="_blank">505-238-9359 P: <a href="tel:505-951-6084" value="+15059516084" target="_blank">505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org