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Fallback in barbarism

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Jochen Fromm-5

Fallback in barbarism

I must say the images from CNN which we receive here in Europe are a bit disturbing. The mob that stormed the heart of American democracy felt like anarchy, like a fallback in barbaric ancient times - the time of Barbarians vs Romans or even the stone age. It is like Neanderthals found a way to use a time machine to travel into the 21st century: one guy was dressed in fur pelts and was holding a wooden stick like a wizard from Lord of the Rings, and one half-naked guy was wearing furs and horns (the one known as "Q shaman"). Long-haired bearded guys have been looting stuff like cavemen - in the center of Washington D.C.!

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/PROTESTS/qmyvmqewmvr/

How is this possible in the oldest democracy of the world?

-J.

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Fallback in barbarism

It is like the feral children of the in-law relatives that misbehave at a work social event. Oh god… Not them, again.

Someone lock them in the minivan.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/PROTESTS/qmyvmqewmvr/

How is this possible in the oldest democracy of the world?

-J.

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

I would say that it is possible because it is allowed. The American mythos has always emphasized the individual over the collective society, freedom (with responsibility in theory, but usually lacking) from government interference, and generally a distrust of government in general. There is a very fine line between libertarianism and anarchism. Our constitutionally enshrined freedoms, with little, if any, enshrined responsibilities, allows people to never grow up. A society of adolescents. Most citizens come to understand the need to grow up and be responsible citizens, but are too willing to tolerate those who don't. Couple that with the inherent disdain for government and almost religious devotion to the right to bear arms, and you have a recipe for fringe anti-government militia groups. A few sayings make it clear: "Give me liberty, or give me death" (Patrick Henry); "Those who are willing to give up a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither." (Benjamin Franklin, paraphrased); "You can take my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." (popularized by the National Rifle Association). This is my take on it, as someone who grew up in deep red Kansas.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Fallback in barbarism

I believe the Republicans could have prevented it. Although Trump was found guilty in the (1st) impeachment, they voted to acquit him in the Senate.

Fox News could have prevented it by more honesty and fact checking. We don't get it here in Europe but many say it is part of the problem, because it spread Trump's lies.

Could you say that both the Republican party and their Fox News TV station have radicalized and "derailed" ? Is this a chance for the Republicans to renew themselves?

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/7/21 23:56 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve Smith

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

J -

John Adams reminded us: “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

FWIW:

I'm also a fan of the description of Democracy as "the Tyranny of a majority over a minority" tempered with the clause in Churchill's "...except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..."

The popular vote for Trump was roughly 74M which was *approaching* 47% of the total vote of 158M which is almost half of the ~330M, so a mere 25% voted *for* Trump and yet his supporters in the number of thousands storming the Capital to try to overthrow that *claim* they are a majority. Even Biden's 51+% is not a "majority of the people", albeit *over* 25% FWIW... We can all shriek that "if you don't vote, you can't complain" and I don't want to enumerate the myriad reasons people might not vote (including being underage or legally unable to (alien permanent residents, convicted felons in many states, etc.) but the fact remains those non-voters deserve proper representation *even if* they failed to do something obvious to achieve it.

My own biases suggest that there are *very few* non-voting Trumpsters this time around, but *plenty* of people for whom the Dem's agenda is more supportive of (my view is that the Dems try much harder to represent *everyone* in their domain of representation than the Republicans who seem more inclined (not exclusively but significantly) to ignore the plight of the disenfranchised.

How does Germany's representative democracy fair in your opinion? Do you know what penetration of voting is there, and does your Parliamentary form include coalition building, etc. compared to our own stark flippy-floppy winner-takes all nonsense?

- Steve

On 1/7/21 3:00 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Facebook needs to be regulated. Facebook is a self-learning platform that tries to extract the most engagement from users no matter the topic. I think and open, automated, system based with advanced natural language processing combined with human editors is needed in order to police the social network platforms. They need to detect and stop crazy, not make people more crazy. Better to have it be a surveillance platform in the public interest than one in Facebook’s interest.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 3:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

I believe the Republicans could have prevented it. Although Trump was found guilty in the (1st) impeachment, they voted to acquit him in the Senate.

Fox News could have prevented it by more honesty and fact checking. We don't get it here in Europe but many say it is part of the problem, because it spread Trump's lies.

Could you say that both the Republican party and their Fox News TV station have radicalized and "derailed" ? Is this a chance for the Republicans to renew themselves?

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/7/21 23:56 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve Smith

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Gary -

I think "immaturity" goes much further afield than the (radical?) right... we are a culture of adolescents across the board. I believe this is for several reasons, but all roughly coming down to it making us more controllable by whatever forces (commercial, religious, governmental) want to control us. We are encouraged to remain thoughtless, dependent and irresponsible. Unfortunately those who invoke my phrase here almost always are some of the least thoughful, independent, responsible people themselves, using the accusation itself as a way to try to control or justify through shame, etc.

There are theories that suggest one of the evolutionary steps to becoming hominid from primate was to delay maturity (remain plastic longer, learn more in the process, etc) and that we might well be *stuck* in immaturity by an evolutionary trick or accident... just look at the difference between men who do and don't pump steroids... those that do often develop a body closer to that of a gorilla than to that of a computer nerd. Similarly, the domestication (and taming) of animals also seems to involve delayed or stunted maturity.... anyone involved in wild animal rescue has experienced watching a hand-raised cute little, friendly baby this-or-that (especially a predator) become a dangerous wild animal as it matures...

I think we need to look closely at the myriad dimensions of maturity and decide how we can achieve the best of the process without bringing on the worst (plastic vs elastic personality/intellect/etc.)?

- Steve

On 1/7/21 3:55 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

Prof David West

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

When it comes to democracy, I am socratic — in the sense of following Socrates.

davew

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

thompnickson2

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

J-

Oldest RUNNING democracy in the world; perhaps the miracle is that it hasn’t happened before now.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 4:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/PROTESTS/qmyvmqewmvr/

How is this possible in the oldest democracy of the world?

-J.

Eric Charles-2

Re: Fallback in barbarism

(My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm yesterday) 

Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly: 

All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and I'm less worried about those things now than I was before.

I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30 locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out of both sides.

For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a country of 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.

There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6 pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife Refuge stand off. They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda and no resolve.

Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been nothing. 

[hidden email]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

gepr

Re: Fallback in barbarism

Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:

https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-in-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-session/

https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics-and-details/

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-breached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/

To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:

https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/

I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.

On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>(My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm yesterday)
>
>Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we are
>hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly:
>All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find
>heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the
>absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks
>like
>it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried about,
>and
>it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the symbolism of it
>happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, but it's not an
>honest
>threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and I'm less worried about
>those
>things now than I was before.
>I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30
>locations,
>that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on firing, that
>they
>would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I think the delayed
>declaration of the winner took much of the wind out of both sides.
>For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup
>attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it
>just
>wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be more than
>it
>was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a country of
>330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots
>is
>not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with some
>pretty
>serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized group trying
>to
>incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no bigger group with
>that
>goal is arising anytime soon. They had no military backing, no internal
>structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.
>
>There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6
>pm
>curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM
>protestors,
>Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife Refuge stand
>off.
>They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda
>and no
>resolve.
>
>Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they
>obviously
>should have), it sure seems like this would have been nothing.
>

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Fallback in barbarism

Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:

https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-in-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-session/

https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics-and-details/

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-breached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/

To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:

https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/

I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.

On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>(My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm yesterday)
>
>Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we are
>hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly:
>All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find
>heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the
>absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks
>like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried
>about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the
>symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing,
>but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and I'm
>less worried about those things now than I was before.
>I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30
>locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on
>firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I
>think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out
>of both sides.
>For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup
>attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it
>just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be more
>than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a country
>of
>330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots
>is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with some
>pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized group
>trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no bigger
>group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no military
>backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.
>
>There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6
>pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM
>protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife
>Refuge stand off.
>They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda
>and no resolve.
>
>Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they
>obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been
>nothing.
>

--
glen ⛧

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gepr

Re: Fallback in barbarism

The pictures of some cops taking selfies with the mobsters fits the narrative that many cops are sympathetic. https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/washington-dc-election-riots/h_bf082e3fc62f47230f3e22c8d188f80d

I'm skeptical, though. Sicknick died from his injuries, which doesn't fit the narrative. It's a bit like the accusations the PDX cops coordinated more with right wing protest organizers than with antifa or BLM protest organizers. I'm skeptical of those stories, too. In the end, it's most effective to provisionally assume the cops (and everyone else, including the morons with confederate flags) are operating in good faith. But like with your empathy thread, when they get out of line, you can't hesitate to clip it. So the resignations of the chiefs and sergeants-at-arms is the right thing.

Re: one of the articles I included yesterday, the WA 3% called off their occupation of the Olympia Capitol: https://www.theolympian.com/news/state/washington/article248362845.html
But, to me, that further signals they're *not* just a bunch of yahoos. They're organizing and their intent is suspect.

On 1/8/21 1:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
>
> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-in-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996
>
> https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-session/
>
> https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics-and-details/
>
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-breached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/
>
> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:
>
> https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/
>
> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Barry MacKichan

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5

My suggestions:

A party of the plutocracy which would not win any elections without exploiting social differences and dog-whistle racism. The system of primaries and the gerrymandering of congressional districts has allowed a minority of a minority to control who gets to run for public office.

A media subculture that amplifies those grievances — Fox News and its wannabe imitators.

Movement conservatism, an infrastructure of think tanks, journals, etc. which is now over fifty years old, with plenty of money (Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, etc), which exerts constant pressure on the elites and provides lucrative backup employment for out-of-office conservative politicians.

A outrage machine which favors engagement of any type, but which rewards anger and outrageousness above all. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ofYEfewNE

In the final analysis, I can’t answer your question: I really don’t understand how we have gotten to this point, and I don’t understand how many politicians can look in the mirror every day.

—Barry

On 7 Jan 2021, at 17:00, Jochen Fromm wrote:

thompnickson2

Re: Fallback in barbarism

Barry,

Add to your list the following: It is a psychological fact that fortunate people attribute their good fortune to their own talent and the misfortunes of others to their lack thereof. Unfortunate people tend to attribute their misfortune (and the fortunes of others) to luck. Thus fortunate people not only have the financial resources to carry on, they have the sense of agency that leads them to carry on, while unfortunate people are led to hunker down and quit.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

My suggestions:

A media subculture that amplifies those grievances — Fox News and its wannabe imitators.

A outrage machine which favors engagement of any type, but which rewards anger and outrageousness above all. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ofYEfewNE

In the final analysis, I can’t answer your question: I really don’t understand how we have gotten to this point, and I don’t understand how many politicians can look in the mirror every day.

—Barry

On 7 Jan 2021, at 17:00, Jochen Fromm wrote:

gepr

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Barry MacKichan

And ...

https://documented.net/2021/01/republican-attorneys-general-dark-money-group-organized-protest-preceding-capitol-mob-attack/

On 1/8/21 7:59 AM, Barry MacKichan wrote:
> Movement conservatism, an infrastructure of think tanks, journals, etc. which is now over fifty years old, with plenty of money (Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, etc), which exerts constant pressure on the elites and provides lucrative backup employment for out-of-office conservative politicians.

--
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: Fallback in barbarism

Glen we got the meeting back up if interested.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:44 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

And ...

https://documented.net/2021/01/republican-attorneys-general-dark-money-group-organized-protest-preceding-capitol-mob-attack/

On 1/8/21 7:59 AM, Barry MacKichan wrote:
> Movement conservatism, an infrastructure of think tanks, journals, etc. which is now over fifty years old, with plenty of money (Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, etc), which exerts constant pressure on the elites and provides lucrative backup employment for out-of-office conservative politicians.

--
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Steve Smith

Re: Fallback in barbarism

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.

and, and, and... all three.

Incompetent: I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced
in dealing with aggressive groups... maybe a few aggressive
individuals, but not a mob.   The police beating down BLM protestors ARE
experienced (likely to a fault). Capitol Police were not "competent" in
riot control, not really that surprising.

Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to
march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't
expect the crowds to become a mob.   Hindsight makes it seem absurd they
couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have?   DC Mayor who may have
anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds,
she probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that
might have spilled over. I'm not sure who the cops were in the various
BLM protest beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the
rank and file who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the
lobby of the Capitol entrance.

Complicit: Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and
encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it.
If any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob
spirit, I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow
officers or some Congressional staff/members themselves. I do wish
there would be a public hearing with *every* officer required to account
the events from their point of view of what happened. Or more to the
point, *private* interviews recorded and made public after all were
gathered and vetted (so that they could not build their narratives
together).    I'm not sure there were more than a few bad apples and
then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, but it is a microcosm
of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades our culture. It
doesn't smell like an "inside job".

On the topic of complicity/culpability: I think *every* identifiable
person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest
crime that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of
private interviews/statements taken and released to the public.   If one
of my neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I
want to know what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there.   I
am a naturally forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors
to have to be accountable to *me* (and their other
neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency.
Mr. Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in
where that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there
were more than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what
they participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore
culpable. I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders?
Surely there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings? They
were open, right?

Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image
some more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants. It
feels as if he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door...
it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of
the shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it?

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
>
> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-in-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996
>
> https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-session/
>
> https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics-and-details/
>
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-breached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/
>
> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:
>
> https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/
>
> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.
>
>
> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm yesterday)
>>
>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we are
>> hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly:
>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find
>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the
>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks
>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried
>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the
>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing,
>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and I'm
>> less worried about those things now than I was before.
>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30
>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on
>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I
>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out
>> of both sides.
>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup
>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it
>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be more
>> than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a country
>> of
>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots
>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with some
>> pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized group
>> trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no bigger
>> group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no military
>> backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.
>>
>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6
>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM
>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife
>> Refuge stand off.
>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda
>> and no resolve.
>>
>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they
>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been
>> nothing.
>>
> --
> glen ⛧
>
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>

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Fallback in barbarism

I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind of situation.

As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them.

Get that point across.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.

and, and, and... all three.

Incompetent: I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in dealing with aggressive groups... maybe a few aggressive individuals, but not a mob.   The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely to a fault). Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not really that surprising.

Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't expect the crowds to become a mob.   Hindsight makes it seem absurd they couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have?   DC Mayor who may have anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have spilled over. I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol entrance.

Complicit: Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit, I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers or some Congressional staff/members themselves. I do wish there would be a public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from their point of view of what happened. Or more to the point, *private* interviews recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so that they could not build their narratives together).    I'm not sure there were more than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades our culture. It doesn't smell like an "inside job".

On the topic of complicity/culpability: I think *every* identifiable person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private interviews/statements taken and released to the public.   If one of my neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there.   I am a naturally forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be accountable to *me* (and their other
neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr. Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore culpable. I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings? They were open, right?

Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants. It feels as if he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door...
it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it?

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
>
> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-i
> n-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996
>
> https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-ses
> sion/
>
> https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics
> -and-details/
>
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-bre
> ached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/
>
> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:
>
> https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/
>
> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.
>
>
> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm
>> yesterday)
>>
>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we
>> are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly:
>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find
>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the
>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks
>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried
>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the
>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing,
>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and
>> I'm less worried about those things now than I was before.
>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30
>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on
>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I
>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out
>> of both sides.
>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup
>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it
>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be
>> more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a
>> country of
>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots
>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with
>> some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized
>> group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no
>> bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no
>> military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.
>>
>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6
>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM
>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife
>> Refuge stand off.
>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda
>> and no resolve.
>>
>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they
>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been
>> nothing.
>>
> --
> glen ⛧
>
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>

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cody dooderson

Re: Fallback in barbarism

It is ironic that the crowds carried so many American flags. Maybe that's why the police didn't take them more seriously. It seems like the American flag is used as camouflage for the trojan horse carrying it. I wonder how many windows were broken by American flags, and police officers were assaulted with 'blue lives matter' flags.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 1:20 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: