Fallback in barbarism
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I don't understand the lack of security around the Capitol building. I'll bet that if 100+ BLM protesters had tried to get into the White House, the results would have been very different, with multiple people being killed or at least incapicated before even reaching the walls. If someone had actually managed to scale the White House walls and broken a window to get in, the secret service would undoubtedly have shot first and asked questions later. I don't understand why it was so much different at the Capitol building. On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 3:20 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind of situation. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
In my personal affect, Marcus, I completely share your feeling.
> On Jan 8, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind of situation. > > As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them. > > Get that point across. Yet, as a tactical matter, I was glad at the end that they exercised such excessive restraint (or incapacity), which was not necessarily a _good_ choice, and would have been a disaster if the mob had had firearms or napalm out and active, but which turned out to get through a clusterfsck with amazingly small loss of life, making the group at large look more like a badly done zombie movie than like Benghazi where real terrorists had a goal. Even as the day was unfolding, I thought this might have been a “good” trajectory just because they were in DC, where possession of un-permitted firearms is illegal and is somewhat-effectively policed. The same setup in Michigan, N. Carolina, or Texas, would not have recommended the same early part of the trajectory. Also relevant to this is a point that Justin King makes properly: trump never had allegiance of the military, and without that there was a limited impact a coup attempt was capable of having. I am constantly put in mind of the meeting that MLK and John Lewis had with LBJ, where LBJ was protesting (for real or as an excuse) that he didn’t have the power to pass the civil rights act. When they left, Lewis asked MLK what they were going to do now, and MLK’s answer was “We’re going to go get the president some power.” My thoughts about what is possible are mixed. On one hand, as vicious as racism and the social complacency with racism was in the 1960s, I worry that in a way the society is even more degraded (though less visibly so on the surface) today. In the 1960s, there were large communities of people like my mother, who would have been appalled if she had seen any of this, but lived so entirely within a bubble that even Selma somehow never really reached her. It is only in the past decade or so that she realizes how much of everything going on in the nation was just lost on her in her early 20s, when she was worried about how to start a marriage and a family against personal neuroticism combined with religious fundamentalism and significant poverty — you know, the kinds of things that can distract the mind of a young person. My father, being a lower-class east coast white man, and less smart, would probably have missed the point in his republicanism even if he had seen it on the news. But around all that social siloing, there seems to have been a large enough community of people with the same basic fabric as my mother, who were reached by Selma, that it got LBJ over the hump. Today, it is easy to know about everything, and the fact that people don’t suggests that there is a more deliberate hiding that is more pervasive in the society, meaning that there may be less of the whole cloth of goodness of my mother’s cohort available to work with today. Also, while the 1960s were miserable between racism and cold-war proxies, economically the period from the 50s to the 70s was one of increasing economic fairness, providing a certain optimism that could give people breathing room to be decent if they would choose to do so. Today the grievance sector of the US is anchored in not only bad but worsening straits for all the reasons Piketty and others document, which we have discussed here at length. The real parts of that frustration probably provide a heavier boat anchor for the rump of the society than there was in the 1960s. And as we have the capacity to know that climate and political instabilities are bearing down on us, I think there is a more determined head in the sand across the society than there was then. The only major area in which the situation is less neurotic is that people aren’t widely aware of nuclear danger the way they were coming out of the 1950s. On the other hand, if I zoom out and look at material events stripped of symbolism, the officials managed to get several thousand ignorant, stupid, or simply lost people through a day of mostly chest-beating without very many people getting killed. That that seems to define a kind of “proportional” outcome, which would have been lost if, say, all those inside the capital had been locked in and set on fire, as might have been done in Ancient Rome or even by the resistance in Nazi-occupied countries. Would those inside have “let themselves in for it”? Yes, and I would not have had a large emotional response of sympathy for them. But it would have cemented the US as a country that institutionally was incapable of getting itself through any conflict with something like limited damage. The image I want somebody with acumen to cement from Wednesday is one of the bum-shamble of degradation of the rump of the society, its representatives, and its institutions. Yes, they are domestic terrorists, but they are sort of domestic terrorists in the same sense as Eric Prince is a mercenary (as in the article SteveS forwarded: “Oh, Prince? You mean the world’s worst mercenary?”) I want trump tied to the republicans like the albatross, not only around the mariner, but the whole crew of shipmates. Let them fall down and each one curse him with his eye, but (politically speaking) die anyway. It’s hard today, because the US has been fed such a steady diet of degradation and melodrama that it is hard to get people appalled by anything any more. But somehow I feel like breaking through that hallucination still needs to be the goal. It would work compatibly with an interval of good governance going forward, in quick areas like public health, minimum wage and stop-gap public employment options, restoration of collective bargaining organs, and things of that sort. Dunno. There is a strange thing about self-governance. In the middle layers of the hierarchy, there is some notion of justice as rules of the game, where the players can be held accountable to referees higher up in the ladder. But at the top rungs, within the legislature and executive, and in international relations, there is only self-reference, and what one can manage to get done. It's an ugly domain where I am glad I do not work, but where I feel obliged to think the rules of desirable play may be somewhat different. Eric > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism > > > On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen. > > and, and, and... all three. > > Incompetent: I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in dealing with aggressive groups... maybe a few aggressive individuals, but not a mob. The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely to a fault). Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not really that surprising. > > Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't expect the crowds to become a mob. Hindsight makes it seem absurd they couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have? DC Mayor who may have anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have spilled over. I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol entrance. > > Complicit: Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit, I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers or some Congressional staff/members themselves. I do wish there would be a public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from their point of view of what happened. Or more to the point, *private* interviews recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so that they could not build their narratives together). I'm not sure there were more than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades our culture. It doesn't smell like an "inside job". > > On the topic of complicity/culpability: I think *every* identifiable person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private interviews/statements taken and released to the public. If one of my neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there. I am a naturally forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be accountable to *me* (and their other > neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr. Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore culpable. I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings? They were open, right? > > Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants. It feels as if he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door... > it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it? > > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen >> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[hidden email]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism >> >> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion: >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.propublica.org%2farticle%2fcapitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-i&c=E,1,cuc8rsFWYJEIxD8sVELQWpJrqZUEXTW0DArxgUAfitXocexDJY3-2mtEf8X9hRPsHkIYAElDEKGx0arSB5fKSoG37WBRtns6jKyw3tBbrFfaWpD7lks9nYw,&typo=1 >> n-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996 >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.opb.org%2farticle%2f2021%2f01%2f06%2fwashington-2021-legislative-ses&c=E,1,2u7-8S6a-QZaV_ON5NYBgJzRpQanjbEyVHSkva4RPg8lhnwyU-LzZWnPTipvorCJfIqhKEXJ1PTJTDFq4RpGEl-G2QOscOBdmCwHy9wK1nEchA4dorgmhzqe-TM,&typo=1 >> sion/ >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fpugetsoundanarchists.org%2fevergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics&c=E,1,Mum6ixn0AuzQaxHfkT13yNlggpwQNxax6H9V-aL2cdrXdhG9f6PxX1UNzuc04KaSxE4GwoVJ2gnaQc4mqMlGn_D8_piCfPovSgurHI6PFZo,&typo=1 >> -and-details/ >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.patheos.com%2fblogs%2fthefreethinker%2f2021%2f01%2fchristian-who-bre&c=E,1,1mVQx5LNrfGolzknHuw-ouGUyGHcfxClG9QUgv92hVOHqzl22xeOspyU8VPfVrwW4ZMcdx9YPf3QHyD7kPXXCeO8tvks7oxBc_EHLlVPV0fQ6ty_JD_-&typo=1 >> ached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/ >> >> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump: >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fundark.org%2f2021%2f01%2f07%2fscience-trump-grip-white-male-effect%2f&c=E,1,BS3o76kXkxqO_UyVhn8_5GUIlmGRYv5yGMljdZlnKe3W4fOLuLUsOEno7w15Exl7DtkzeZnO2yA6SowZpkU1NiOJryqlvNksIPtbKhQvdTENYXjfvkiHSABm&typo=1 >> >> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos. >> >> >> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm >>> yesterday) >>> >>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we >>> are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly: >>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find >>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the >>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks >>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried >>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the >>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, >>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and >>> I'm less worried about those things now than I was before. >>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30 >>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on >>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I >>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out >>> of both sides. >>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup >>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it >>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be >>> more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a >>> country of >>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots >>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with >>> some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized >>> group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no >>> bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no >>> military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing. >>> >>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6 >>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM >>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife >>> Refuge stand off. >>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda >>> and no resolve. >>> >>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they >>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been >>> nothing. >>> >> -- >> glen ⛧ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,bK0iUv54rLgm_CpCU6uUpF67c--lG6u3b-e_cPNqlX4LuTM9CbZCyaAWfgtXwq8ZC2pP4-oZquy9YDw9FK2_A3WdOdE1GVMfbbf0BQWtlETa39zpc0AOWeTr&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,QedIUX21PFVu77ECXTE-pGxo2k_Ht7eZr2ME2DQjOXBXzR99TbnpQ-swJ3xle8NaCPOo-PqVqrnu-5sAZo3Uu9brlkib6nk_2tT1B25_1bCs&typo=1 >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zT9xKoWKU4TRUMCn4i8x7gXgP4xj6fq8xDDOSr-5d-pgLNHRvJF0ZNXTwkLuX46q6quaUoVAMelXElJKtAi3C0oMVkxrgFGD4PVOCv7bWQ,,&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,c-rraOKLMJV8UmUeLX1M7XHF4jOAs1-8KLU1XsuOx04lO-6sMA9Ax43isjTX8dTBIG5p0sdRA1cMcnm5nZaL8DkMlMsGGEUOwXiuZgJsD6wJDiRY2W4da_R7xDrO&typo=1 >> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,BlVUQkJ8THPz4ODDIhXuj9wjYHeHA762EHtO0d5oEkjHbLkJcJaN706fTMG1-LL1_chDAOQoM72NYgataTKkz_QQUFqQkP7kld3u3bKYXdg,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-i0cImnQd96VNHbMunOLSK2QOOFKw2syFEwL-ZZ-cafpNkeYgn9VdVce3Jj7otSS-Bflz_A8q2YEF17TbKjAWxaQodnVsNdvpIJd10v34QFiLDSogt4u9CtG-wCz&typo=1 > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,XntBI1yjUK2_FA4sxi6NvJT8PAwNkPXZ4bh9_EB-v3dZkQt6sjUTVqrO6xlIiQxRkUTaZG2J0LV_jscotK9PPJ1S0PJL1P7zNDp7N4wltnyXn3gwxIxDkhS74w,,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,jz7oiYQ1lVuI6SeMXizcUw1CBjnQpYgIBGgiHH0zzUrjZ824tNGlflFaWHKYUArwX_44d7779roI0t_JRccSPcpIH5c3-jV5ArVqxCC2VG0cm3AqKl_gKA,,&typo=1 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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Eric writes:
< On the other hand, if I zoom out and look at material events stripped of symbolism, the officials managed to get several thousand ignorant, stupid, or simply lost people through a day of mostly chest-beating without very many people getting killed. That that seems to define a kind of “proportional” outcome, which would have been lost if, say, all those inside the capital had been locked in and set on fire, as might have been done in Ancient Rome or even by the resistance in Nazi-occupied countries. Would those inside have “let themselves in for it”? Yes, and I would not have had a large emotional response of sympathy for them. But it would have cemented the US as a country that institutionally was incapable of getting itself through any conflict with something like limited damage. > The gatherings of the government and against the government are symbolic anyway. Really our country's business can be conducted over a Zoom meeting. I suppose one could make it look like the business of the people was going on in the capitol building so that when the white supremacists stormed the place, they could be neutralized in one place without any collateral damage. Perhaps an incapacitating gas with a tunable concentration depending on the nature of the event. Of course, any defensive technologies that are installed could be used for offense with a more sophisticated opponent. One could imagine directed microwave weapons that could be controlled from remote locations, say. And then there is the dark possibility of the next set of fascists that could take over one arm of the government or another -- maybe proliferation of such technology is not such a good idea! The institutional responses I see is mostly after the event. It is not clear to me there was any strategy to the government response at the capitol, other than to take a defensive position because they were understaffed. But *now*, Trump has lost his platform. If he is disqualified from running again and his allies are radioactive that's a step forward. The catharsis cost them, at least in the short term. Marcus - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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I agree at every point, Marcus.
Didn’t Luke Skywalker do that zooming-in thing in one of the Star Warses? Would have been fun to see that done to Wednesday’s crowd, with the whole Capitol a hologram. Leave them standing in an empty field hooting. Eric > On Jan 9, 2021, at 1:34 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Eric writes: > > < On the other hand, if I zoom out and look at material events stripped of symbolism, the officials managed to get several thousand ignorant, stupid, or simply lost people through a day of mostly chest-beating without very many people getting killed. That that seems to define a kind of “proportional” outcome, which would have been lost if, say, all those inside the capital had been locked in and set on fire, as might have been done in Ancient Rome or even by the resistance in Nazi-occupied countries. Would those inside have “let themselves in for it”? Yes, and I would not have had a large emotional response of sympathy for them. But it would have cemented the US as a country that institutionally was incapable of getting itself through any conflict with something like limited damage. > > > The gatherings of the government and against the government are symbolic anyway. Really our country's business can be conducted over a Zoom meeting. I suppose one could make it look like the business of the people was going on in the capitol building so that when the white supremacists stormed the place, they could be neutralized in one place without any collateral damage. Perhaps an incapacitating gas with a tunable concentration depending on the nature of the event. Of course, any defensive technologies that are installed could be used for offense with a more sophisticated opponent. One could imagine directed microwave weapons that could be controlled from remote locations, say. And then there is the dark possibility of the next set of fascists that could take over one arm of the government or another -- maybe proliferation of such technology is not such a good idea! > > The institutional responses I see is mostly after the event. It is not clear to me there was any strategy to the government response at the capitol, other than to take a defensive position because they were understaffed. > But *now*, Trump has lost his platform. If he is disqualified from running again and his allies are radioactive that's a step forward. The catharsis cost them, at least in the short term. > > Marcus > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kiplSeplld8KOWCMrKvHuSq8PsMXeRdjjfyv5nVZYfUSJGWriH4-TIJT3HpF2vzeMJ9Om1yg3b_Lc9fGhZuTmQ3XQXnI8nduOJniHIYhl-iFxbZFdVHLwXK6B0nc&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,GGXfpG5BCZbpb4yx6JtceZw6nTDNk1zDpzAXNvce5lH0OmefK_BZ2waDQW3nC-9w2AVj5ir_W9nlEVXWwpw7FTDPqdPisq9eM-sNIVknDO29fj0u&typo=1 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
EricS -
Fascinating and excellent review/analysis of this moment. Among all of the other points you make, the one about how *relatively* benign the event turned out to be (compared to it's worst potential incarnations) gives me some kind of hope, not unlike the hope I kept rekindling every time Trump pulled a totally ridiculous boner move in the last 4-8 years (back to his birtherism nonsense) based on the general incompetence of his own self and those he selected for the sycophance over any actual skill. The CosPlay bozos in the rally and this insurrectional storming of the Capital, in their own way, may have helped to keep it (almost, nearly, partially? benign in outcome) with the carnival (carnivale?) atmosphere and attendant incompetence. I don't know if those with (patently illegal) weapons (there are bullet scars in the Capitol *not* from Police weapons) and the (unexploded/unused) pipe-bombs and DIY napalm makings were particularly incompetent, or self restrained or if we (the people at large) were just lucky. I am looking forward to the dominoes of criminal indictments to unroll over the next months to roll out with a proper hierarchy of "evil" exposed from the very worst/ugliest to the most innocent/benign (whatever that means?). I didn't catch many/any public stories of BLM protestors who were shocked or felt chagrined by the (relatively few, but not insignificant) violent, harm-to-human-life results of some of their actions. That doesn't mean there were none. It is my nature that if a "peaceful protest" I was involved in yielded violent life-threatening escalation ( to any party ) I would be reflecting on my own intentions and actions very deeply and probably somewhat harshly. I wonder if there are *any* Trumpsters (at the event, or at their own state-house/governer's mansion, etc.) who are in any way embarrassed or at least questioning WTF they are involved in, much less deeply ashamed? I am surrounded by silent Trumpsters... only a very few Trump2020 signs but plenty of history and affect that leads me to believe they were at least tacitly supportive of most if not all of his antics. I don't know what I will say to them when I see them next... I would hope that I could give them a look or ask them a fairly innocent question that would elicit a "hanging of their head", I suppose time will tell. In the fullness of time... - Steve On 1/9/21 5:26 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: > In my personal affect, Marcus, I completely share your feeling. > >> On Jan 8, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind of situation. >> >> As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them. >> >> Get that point across. > Yet, as a tactical matter, I was glad at the end that they exercised such excessive restraint (or incapacity), which was not necessarily a _good_ choice, and would have been a disaster if the mob had had firearms or napalm out and active, but which turned out to get through a clusterfsck with amazingly small loss of life, making the group at large look more like a badly done zombie movie than like Benghazi where real terrorists had a goal. Even as the day was unfolding, I thought this might have been a “good” trajectory just because they were in DC, where possession of un-permitted firearms is illegal and is somewhat-effectively policed. The same setup in Michigan, N. Carolina, or Texas, would not have recommended the same early part of the trajectory. Also relevant to this is a point that Justin King makes properly: trump never had allegiance of the military, and without that there was a limited impact a coup attempt was capable of having. > > I am constantly put in mind of the meeting that MLK and John Lewis had with LBJ, where LBJ was protesting (for real or as an excuse) that he didn’t have the power to pass the civil rights act. When they left, Lewis asked MLK what they were going to do now, and MLK’s answer was “We’re going to go get the president some power.” > > My thoughts about what is possible are mixed. On one hand, as vicious as racism and the social complacency with racism was in the 1960s, I worry that in a way the society is even more degraded (though less visibly so on the surface) today. In the 1960s, there were large communities of people like my mother, who would have been appalled if she had seen any of this, but lived so entirely within a bubble that even Selma somehow never really reached her. It is only in the past decade or so that she realizes how much of everything going on in the nation was just lost on her in her early 20s, when she was worried about how to start a marriage and a family against personal neuroticism combined with religious fundamentalism and significant poverty — you know, the kinds of things that can distract the mind of a young person. My father, being a lower-class east coast white man, and less smart, would probably have missed the point in his republicanism even if he had seen it on the news. But around all that social siloing, there seems to have been a large enough community of people with the same basic fabric as my mother, who were reached by Selma, that it got LBJ over the hump. Today, it is easy to know about everything, and the fact that people don’t suggests that there is a more deliberate hiding that is more pervasive in the society, meaning that there may be less of the whole cloth of goodness of my mother’s cohort available to work with today. Also, while the 1960s were miserable between racism and cold-war proxies, economically the period from the 50s to the 70s was one of increasing economic fairness, providing a certain optimism that could give people breathing room to be decent if they would choose to do so. Today the grievance sector of the US is anchored in not only bad but worsening straits for all the reasons Piketty and others document, which we have discussed here at length. The real parts of that frustration probably provide a heavier boat anchor for the rump of the society than there was in t > he 1960s. And as we have the capacity to know that climate and political instabilities are bearing down on us, I think there is a more determined head in the sand across the society than there was then. The only major area in which the situation is less neurotic is that people aren’t widely aware of nuclear danger the way they were coming out of the 1950s. > > On the other hand, if I zoom out and look at material events stripped of symbolism, the officials managed to get several thousand ignorant, stupid, or simply lost people through a day of mostly chest-beating without very many people getting killed. That that seems to define a kind of “proportional” outcome, which would have been lost if, say, all those inside the capital had been locked in and set on fire, as might have been done in Ancient Rome or even by the resistance in Nazi-occupied countries. Would those inside have “let themselves in for it”? Yes, and I would not have had a large emotional response of sympathy for them. But it would have cemented the US as a country that institutionally was incapable of getting itself through any conflict with something like limited damage. > > The image I want somebody with acumen to cement from Wednesday is one of the bum-shamble of degradation of the rump of the society, its representatives, and its institutions. Yes, they are domestic terrorists, but they are sort of domestic terrorists in the same sense as Eric Prince is a mercenary (as in the article SteveS forwarded: “Oh, Prince? You mean the world’s worst mercenary?”) I want trump tied to the republicans like the albatross, not only around the mariner, but the whole crew of shipmates. Let them fall down and each one curse him with his eye, but (politically speaking) die anyway. It’s hard today, because the US has been fed such a steady diet of degradation and melodrama that it is hard to get people appalled by anything any more. But somehow I feel like breaking through that hallucination still needs to be the goal. It would work compatibly with an interval of good governance going forward, in quick areas like public health, minimum wage and stop-gap public employment options, restoration of collective bargaining organs, and things of that sort. > > Dunno. There is a strange thing about self-governance. In the middle layers of the hierarchy, there is some notion of justice as rules of the game, where the players can be held accountable to referees higher up in the ladder. But at the top rungs, within the legislature and executive, and in international relations, there is only self-reference, and what one can manage to get done. It's an ugly domain where I am glad I do not work, but where I feel obliged to think the rules of desirable play may be somewhat different. > > Eric > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith >> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism >> >> >> On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security? Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen. >> and, and, and... all three. >> >> Incompetent: I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in dealing with aggressive groups... maybe a few aggressive individuals, but not a mob. The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely to a fault). Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not really that surprising. >> >> Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't expect the crowds to become a mob. Hindsight makes it seem absurd they couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have? DC Mayor who may have anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have spilled over. I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol entrance. >> >> Complicit: Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit, I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers or some Congressional staff/members themselves. I do wish there would be a public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from their point of view of what happened. Or more to the point, *private* interviews recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so that they could not build their narratives together). I'm not sure there were more than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades our culture. It doesn't smell like an "inside job". >> >> On the topic of complicity/culpability: I think *every* identifiable person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private interviews/statements taken and released to the public. If one of my neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there. I am a naturally forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be accountable to *me* (and their other >> neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr. Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore culpable. I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings? They were open, right? >> >> Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants. It feels as if he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door... >> it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it? >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of ? glen >>> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> <[hidden email]> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism >>> >>> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion: >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.propublica.org%2farticle%2fcapitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-i&c=E,1,cuc8rsFWYJEIxD8sVELQWpJrqZUEXTW0DArxgUAfitXocexDJY3-2mtEf8X9hRPsHkIYAElDEKGx0arSB5fKSoG37WBRtns6jKyw3tBbrFfaWpD7lks9nYw,&typo=1 >>> n-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996 >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.opb.org%2farticle%2f2021%2f01%2f06%2fwashington-2021-legislative-ses&c=E,1,2u7-8S6a-QZaV_ON5NYBgJzRpQanjbEyVHSkva4RPg8lhnwyU-LzZWnPTipvorCJfIqhKEXJ1PTJTDFq4RpGEl-G2QOscOBdmCwHy9wK1nEchA4dorgmhzqe-TM,&typo=1 >>> sion/ >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fpugetsoundanarchists.org%2fevergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics&c=E,1,Mum6ixn0AuzQaxHfkT13yNlggpwQNxax6H9V-aL2cdrXdhG9f6PxX1UNzuc04KaSxE4GwoVJ2gnaQc4mqMlGn_D8_piCfPovSgurHI6PFZo,&typo=1 >>> -and-details/ >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.patheos.com%2fblogs%2fthefreethinker%2f2021%2f01%2fchristian-who-bre&c=E,1,1mVQx5LNrfGolzknHuw-ouGUyGHcfxClG9QUgv92hVOHqzl22xeOspyU8VPfVrwW4ZMcdx9YPf3QHyD7kPXXCeO8tvks7oxBc_EHLlVPV0fQ6ty_JD_-&typo=1 >>> ached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/ >>> >>> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump: >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fundark.org%2f2021%2f01%2f07%2fscience-trump-grip-white-male-effect%2f&c=E,1,BS3o76kXkxqO_UyVhn8_5GUIlmGRYv5yGMljdZlnKe3W4fOLuLUsOEno7w15Exl7DtkzeZnO2yA6SowZpkU1NiOJryqlvNksIPtbKhQvdTENYXjfvkiHSABm&typo=1 >>> >>> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos. >>> >>> >>> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm >>>> yesterday) >>>> >>>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we >>>> are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly: >>>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find >>>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the >>>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks >>>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried >>>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the >>>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, >>>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and >>>> I'm less worried about those things now than I was before. >>>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30 >>>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on >>>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I >>>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out >>>> of both sides. >>>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup >>>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it >>>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be >>>> more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a >>>> country of >>>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots >>>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with >>>> some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized >>>> group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no >>>> bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no >>>> military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing. >>>> >>>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6 >>>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM >>>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife >>>> Refuge stand off. >>>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda >>>> and no resolve. >>>> >>>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they >>>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been >>>> nothing. >>>> >>> -- >>> glen ⛧ >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >>> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,bK0iUv54rLgm_CpCU6uUpF67c--lG6u3b-e_cPNqlX4LuTM9CbZCyaAWfgtXwq8ZC2pP4-oZquy9YDw9FK2_A3WdOdE1GVMfbbf0BQWtlETa39zpc0AOWeTr&typo=1 >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,QedIUX21PFVu77ECXTE-pGxo2k_Ht7eZr2ME2DQjOXBXzR99TbnpQ-swJ3xle8NaCPOo-PqVqrnu-5sAZo3Uu9brlkib6nk_2tT1B25_1bCs&typo=1 >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >>> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zT9xKoWKU4TRUMCn4i8x7gXgP4xj6fq8xDDOSr-5d-pgLNHRvJF0ZNXTwkLuX46q6quaUoVAMelXElJKtAi3C0oMVkxrgFGD4PVOCv7bWQ,,&typo=1 >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,c-rraOKLMJV8UmUeLX1M7XHF4jOAs1-8KLU1XsuOx04lO-6sMA9Ax43isjTX8dTBIG5p0sdRA1cMcnm5nZaL8DkMlMsGGEUOwXiuZgJsD6wJDiRY2W4da_R7xDrO&typo=1 >>> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,BlVUQkJ8THPz4ODDIhXuj9wjYHeHA762EHtO0d5oEkjHbLkJcJaN706fTMG1-LL1_chDAOQoM72NYgataTKkz_QQUFqQkP7kld3u3bKYXdg,&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-i0cImnQd96VNHbMunOLSK2QOOFKw2syFEwL-ZZ-cafpNkeYgn9VdVce3Jj7otSS-Bflz_A8q2YEF17TbKjAWxaQodnVsNdvpIJd10v34QFiLDSogt4u9CtG-wCz&typo=1 >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,XntBI1yjUK2_FA4sxi6NvJT8PAwNkPXZ4bh9_EB-v3dZkQt6sjUTVqrO6xlIiQxRkUTaZG2J0LV_jscotK9PPJ1S0PJL1P7zNDp7N4wltnyXn3gwxIxDkhS74w,,&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,jz7oiYQ1lVuI6SeMXizcUw1CBjnQpYgIBGgiHH0zzUrjZ824tNGlflFaWHKYUArwX_44d7779roI0t_JRccSPcpIH5c3-jV5ArVqxCC2VG0cm3AqKl_gKA,,&typo=1 > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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Steve writes:
< Among all of the other points you make, the one about how *relatively* benign the event turned out to be (compared to it's worst potential incarnations) gives me some kind of hope [..]> What is the hypothesis here? That they wanted to show they could do something, but not do something? That the plastic ties for taking hostages were just for the drama of the picture? That if they found Pence of Pelosi they'd just take a selfie with them looking scared and say "Gotcha!" It COULD be, but how do we KNOW that. What I see are extremists that are motivated by backward cultural goals. Another group, ISIS, has had a similar MO, and they don't hesitate to video decapitations. I think there is a *cautionary* argument for leaning forward on these people. I expect that just because they are white, people are prone to thinking they are any less crazy. So via their white privilege they are labeled "yahoos" (e.g. misguided neighbors that are redeemable) and not terrorists. The time to break their will is now, before they take another pass at this. Marcus - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by cody dooderson
Cody, You know, that’s a really good point. Hadn’t thought of it. N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of cody dooderson It is ironic that the crowds carried so many American flags. Maybe that's why the police didn't take them more seriously. It seems like the American flag is used as camouflage for the trojan horse carrying it. I wonder how many windows were broken by American flags, and police officers were assaulted with 'blue lives matter' flags. Cody Smith On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 1:20 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Marcus -
> < Among all of the other points you make, the one about how *relatively* benign the event turned out to be (compared to it's worst potential incarnations) gives me some kind of hope [..]> > > What is the hypothesis here? That they ARE an angry mob of insurrectionists but that this particular action did not involve a particularly high level of coordination or competence. I'll grant that too many of those involved DID demonstrate a level of competence (enough to own a firearm, build a pipe bomb, and get them into DC/Capitol grounds) and reckless/violent intent (as you point out, *what else* could they have had in mind with those, including the eerie zip-ties). The damage (at many levels) they wrought was not trivial, but far from what I feared and/or expected once it was underway. Yes, it is time to deflate this while we still can. Yes (hindsight 20/20) I now wish I'd been *less* tolerant over the last 8 years (since Trump started his Birther nonsense). The stakes are somewhat (evidently?) higher now. I don't intend to suggest that we need to give any more slack for any of this... I've withdrawn the little slack I had left for my family and friends who were still Trumpeting (weakly) right up until the election... none have been willing to Trumpet out loud since, but I suspect some are doing it under their breath. Maybe not since this week, but even that, who knows? I've broken up every bar fight I've been in the presence of, alone or with backup, always with a bartender dialing 911, so I know I have the personal will to face anger and violence, though I quit going to those bars after I realized that I didn't need ANY of that Karma. I've never instigated nor accepted the challenge of a bar fight personally. I became acutely alert once Trump started Trumpeting "landslide" and "stole the election" to my friends' and neighbors' rhetoric on the topic. They either have backed down on that on their own or recognize something in my posture or voice when we even get *close* to that kind of stuff. I hope it is the former, I accept the latter with caution. I speak more openly/freely/generously here because except for a (miniscule?) number of possible lurkers, I trust that this is a choir I'm croaking at, at least on this topic. I feel I can be more open about trying to understand what is *really* going on, not just girding ourselves for the worst cases. If we are playing man-on-man, have you picked out the people in your world you are ready to take head-on (or blindside) to shut down? I think the ratio of White to Black Hats is at beyond 4:1 in our favor even in these dark days. Carry On, - Steve - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Steve writes:
< If we are playing man-on-man, have you picked out the people in your world you are ready to take head-on (or blindside) to shut down? I think the ratio of White to Black Hats is at beyond 4:1 in our favor even in these dark days. > A lot of people are just kind of along for the ride, and they are consensus seekers, and will conform to whatever the local norm is. They just don't seem to care what is true. Their boss will tell what to do, and then they will do it. They like and want it that way. So I don’t really count person-by-person. I see it as party politics. There's a baseline story that's needed for the consensus group, to head them off in the right direction. That was damaged by Trump. The idea that we in the U.S. are a good, if flawed, people that will strive for progress and shared principles and our growth and power is for the betterment of the planet. Obama talked about it in every state of the union speech. Some get that baseline script from their church, and they couldn't build it up for themselves. I'll ignore 2 of your 4 because they are sheep (both left and right leaning). Maintain the institutions, and these people will snap back into place. Make sure people see capitol stormers as criminals as terrorists and then we are in good shape. Others will withhold socially unpopular views, and only come out in the light of day with their biases when the political winds make it safe to do so. After Trump was elected, there seemed to be Fox News fans I never would have expected in the halls, even in "that side" of LANL. Some of them are not really interested in ideology or governance, and they'll go about their business no matter what happens. These are dominator type personalities. They want to strengthen their place in the world, and so are right-leaning because that aligns better. There would be no point in arguing with these people because we basically don't have the same world view. They don't fight for their place in the world to keep from drowning, they fight because that's a way to engage that makes sense to them. A lot of the white men that support Trump are in this category, I think. Then there are the thought leaders on the other side who provide the frameworks and facilities for indoctrination. Again, there is no persuasion there, it is just a question of who has the best lawyers. As for bar fights, I don't really see the urgency. Duck out the back. Maybe they will kill each other, and the problem will be solved. Marcus - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2
I am fascinated by Eric's take on what happened. I guess you had to be here. It's going to get worse and probably more violent as we draw closer to the inauguration. Social media platforms used by these demonstrators are filled with plans for the next mobilization. And speaking to a friend in D.C. today, law enforcement has been finding many molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices planted around the capitol that have now been removed. On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:07 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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