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FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

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Nick Thompson

FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Nick -

This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled. I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.

You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape". I would guess yes to this. I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators. How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide. I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.

I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".

IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing... I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!

- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick or Glen,

I have been mulling over the thread about Representation versus Dynamicism for a bit and the differences

that language imposes whenever cross-disciplines attempt to converse. Today I was struggling with some code

to create Voronoi Meshes nested within each other based on nested spheres. All look well enough until I introduced a

primitive solid, a Cube and tried to make everything spin in space.

I needed to decide which entity or sets were coupled to which… So thinking of FEM procedures I decided to make

the Voronoi Sets occupy the Global Coordinate Position and attach the Cube as a Local Coordinate System. This is

rather arbitrary and can go either way. The problem appears somewhat akin to our thread, but I am aware that these distinctions

are contained within the same Simulation and neither reflects a reality except by coincidence. To cope with multiple coordinate systems one requires

a pertinent transformation matrix but if one is reckless the results are meaningless. The appearance of coupled systems may be illusionary and mistaken

as causative.

I thought today there was also a mention in Science Daily of fractals in Rorsach tests the more fractals, the more imaginative the observer’s answer.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170214162838.htm

It will take a few days but will try and make a video out of the apparent incongruity of these objects. The Cube is lacking any distinctive edge embellishments and

troubles the mind as unreal somehow.

Language always hampers exchange of ideas.

vib

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: February-15-17 4:58 PM
To: Friam; 'Kim Sorvig'
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; David West
Subject: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Helloooo, List,

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

Alberto Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

Nick Thompson

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

Birdsongs can be temporally fractal. If curious, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_bird_song_units .

Please let me know if you can’t get at this, and I will post it another way.

By temporally fractal, I mean, for instance, ABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCD

Is that stretching the meaning of fractal beyond the bounds of propriety?

“Naïve” may not be the best word for what I am up to, here.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Nick -

I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".

- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Prof David West

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,

As asked (effect, affect impose?), my answer would be no. A partial test of the answer would be to see if the songs of birds living, even for multiple generations, in arguably non-fractal environments, e.g. mid-town Manhattan, lost their fractal nature. This test would not rule out the possibility that the 'evolution' of songs was isomorphic to the evolution of bird morphology AND isomorphic to an evolving fractal environment.

A different way to approach the question might be to ask if "fractality" is somehow a substrate upon which living things rely in order to be recognized as "alive." Two things lead me to ask the question in this manner. First, fractal geometry is used to generate digital landscapes and digital life forms, e.g. trees, with results that are far more "lifelike" than attempts based on other graphical systems — Ed Angel should enlighten us here because it is his area of expertise, not mine.

Second, you have hear me talk of Christopher Alexander and his search for the Nature of Order. He posits fifteen properties (e.g. centers, boundaries, alternating repetition, contrast, deep interlock and ambiguity, etc.) that, he says, are fundamental and essential to the creation of built environments that have "liveness." It has always seemed to me that the compositions created using these fifteen properties would also be, in some manner, fractal.

Jenny might have ideas as to the second reason, but she is in Amsterdam for six weeks preparatory to a move there in the fall and might not see the question on the list. I have asked Richard Gabriel for an answer in his role as another expert on Alexander.

davew

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, at 03:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

gepr

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

This idea reminded me of the recent article:

Seeing shapes in seemingly random spatial patterns: Fractal analysis of Rorschach inkblots
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0171289

On 02/16/2017 09:53 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> A different way to approach the question might be to ask if "fractality" is somehow a substrate upon which living things rely in order to be recognized as "alive." Two things lead me to ask the question in this manner. First, fractal geometry is used to generate digital landscapes and digital life forms, e.g. trees, with results that are far more "lifelike" than attempts based on other graphical systems — Ed Angel should enlighten us here because it is his area of expertise, not mine.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,

The second point I made, i.e. about Alexander, Richard Gabriel confirmed that Alexander did cite Mandelbrot and fractal geometry as "confirmation" of his ideas about liveness arising from proper composition using the fifteen properties. Also cited the work of Nikos Salingaros as a rich resource on this topic.

dmw

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, at 09:17 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve,

Birdsongs can be temporally fractal. If curious, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_bird_song_units .
Please let me know if you can’t get at this, and I will post it another way.

By temporally fractal, I mean, for instance, ABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCDABABABCDCDCD

Is that stretching the meaning of fractal beyond the bounds of propriety?

“Naïve” may not be the best word for what I am up to, here.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Nick -
This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled.   I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.
You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape".   I would guess yes to this.    I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators.   How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide.   I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.
I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".
IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing...   I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!
- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Prof David West

David,

Thanks for pitching in.

I have some hazy data concerning bobolink song that might relate to your hypothesis. We did two studies of bobolink song in relatively stable and relatively disrupted habitats. At least that is what we thought was the relevant variable. In the more stable environment, the song was hierarchically organized into strings of several songs that were widely shared between neighbors in the same field. Not fractal, exactly, but definitely, multi-level. In the more disrupted field, the songs were essentially random with no repeated long elements shared between neighbors.

That’s all I got!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Prof David West [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:54 AM
To: Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>; Friam <[hidden email]>; Kim Sorvig <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; Jenny Quillien <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Nick,

davew

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, at 03:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

Nick Thompson

FW: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Dr. Alaniz seems not yet to be signed on to FRIAM so I am forwarding this to the list.

If you respond to the list, I will forward your response to him; and/or you can write to him directly.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Alicia Juarrero <[hidden email]>
Cc: Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>; Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>; Eloy Cell MIAMI <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Hello all, first i will talk from my expertise area, and if I have some problem with theoretical approaches, just tell me. In my point of view the structures of a birds song in a community are highly determined by landscape structure, because some elements of the landscape provide a diversity of habitat in which different species of birds could live. The landscape has two types of heterogeneity, compositional, which are related with the different number of habitat or land covers that compose the landscape; and the configurationally, which are related with the spatial structure of the patches and matrix (size of patches, aggregation, and complexity of patch shape, among others).

In a most complex landscape the variability of habitats increase, increasing the offer for be occupied by different bird species. However this landscape structure is fractal, because depending of the scale of analysis one homogeneous habitat could be disaggregated in other habitats, this will influence the structure of bird songs mainly dependent on the mobility and the home range of the species. For example for a rapacious bird (that fly at high altitude above the canopy), the landscape will be more homogeneous. On the other hand for a little bird e. g. a Rhinocryptidae the landscape will be more heterogeneous. Nevertheless I am not saying that this are the only single variable that explain the structure of bird song at landscape scale, the analysis must be cross-scale in space and time, and using multivariate analysis where we could include a high number of variables that reflects the heterogeneity of landscape.

I sent to you two papers that make an similar analysis using this approach.

http://hydrodictyon.eeb.uconn.edu/people/willig/Willig_pdf/SJ_215_Klingbeil_Willig_2016.pdf

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1984-46702016000500600

Alberto Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

2017-02-16 18:12 GMT-03:00 Alicia Juarrero <[hidden email]>:

Hello, to Old Friends (Tom and Nick); nice to meet you, Alberto.
Thanks,Tom, for the introduction.
I take this opportunity to invite you to visit our new website at
www.vectoranalytica.com (Spanish version of the website & the platform coming soon). The main analytics engine is VectorDataSynergy -- http://www.vectoranalytica.com/Inc/products/vectordatasynergy/
I especially invite you to view the videos, click on the all the images, etc.on each of the site's pages & products.
I think the software is better and more comprehensive than ever. We are really quite proud of its functionalities.
Forecast models are being uploaded as we speak. These should be ready by next week. One advantage of the system -- even the Basic Version -- Alberto, is that it is designed so that researchers can even "test drive" their own models, upload their own data (following registration), etc. With mobile data entry and real time analytics, epidemiological monitoring and tracking can eliminate all the horrible time delays between a "suspected case" and "intervention" (spraying, vaccination, etc).
Alas we do not have cartography for Chile up yet, Alberto, but Florida, I believe, is complete.
I copy Eloy Ortiz who is our Chief Scientist. Alberto he can answer technical questions better than I can.
We are looking for partners with whom to implement what we believe is the most comprehensive surveillance system for vector-borne diseases on the market. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Alicia

Alicia

Alicia Juarrero, PhD
Associate Scholar, Program on Clinical Neuroethics
Georgetown University Medical Center (Washington, D.C.)
Visiting Scholar, Philosophy Department
University of Miami (FL)

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Read down. Perhaps someone you and your guys should know. Epidemiology, etc.
T
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]>
Date: Feb 15, 2017 5:18 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs
To: "Friam" <[hidden email]>, "Kim Sorvig" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>, "David West" <[hidden email]>

Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" target="_blank">+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Carl Tollander

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Many birds do tend to migrate, so wondering what "stable environment" means here.

Also thinking there is at play the developmental environment (extended time of egg-to-bird-of-the-now) of the bird, as well as the outer moment-of-the-song environment. How does one talk about developmental self-similarity? (we have L-systems for simulated plant growth and so on). As I recall from back in the day, self-similarity has limiting scale horizons, where particular dimensions of growth or development dominate to support the self-similarity.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled.   I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.

You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape".   I would guess yes to this.    I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators.   How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide.   I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.

I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".

IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing...   I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!

- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza

Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación

Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados

Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile

Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas

Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile

Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA

<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" value="+56996097443" target="_blank">+56996097443

https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Hi, Carl,

Good to hear your “voice” again?

I think you might be the person best positioned in my life to talk to me about temporal fractality. Are complex drumbeats fractal; and in what degree?

Am I over stretching the term?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Many birds do tend to migrate, so wondering what "stable environment" means here.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -
This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled.   I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.
You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape".   I would guess yes to this.    I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators.   How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide.   I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.
I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".
IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing...   I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!
- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" target="_blank">+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Carl Tollander

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Well, there's order, duration, frequency and a bunch of other stuff. There is work from the signal analysis world, where people are concerned with fractal structure in signals as a means of compression, and tho its been years since I've done neural nets, I imagine heartbeats or nervous system signaling would qualify.

As you remember, I am especially concerned with continuous developmental/learning aspects, rather than specific adult organisms at a specific time in some stable environment. That said at my age I am of course biased.

In my realm there is a figure-ground relationship at different scales between the developing traditions, the drummers, the individuals in the local group playing some arranged piece in the developing tradition, the drum itself (driven amplifier dynamics), drum design (much beyond membranophone descriptions and into wood types, metamaterials, turbulent flow, variance in the thickness and biology of skins and stretching processes, and such), the physics of the drum at the time it is played (humidity, temperature, what's happening in the drum next to it, how quickly it responds to that and the individual strike, the shape, mass, elasticity and internal qualities of the drumsticks, a large number of physiological qualities of the individual drummer and how each drummer works with focus, efficiency of motion and process, the acoustic environment of the venue, the many ways in which the audience or a particular kind of audience responds and in which you can evoke or respond to those qualities. So a complex drumbeat to me might not necessarily mean a sequence of beats, but rather a single beat in which all those qualities come together coherently (to me or anyone present now or in history) in a single hit. Even if the state space of the aforementioned qualities is not precisely knowable just now.

I don't imagine this is particularly different for any musician or that it necessarily qualifies as complex as you might mean it. I'm certainly willing for that bar to be high. As some say, you are the instrument, the voyage makes the captain, etc.

Tying back to "temporal fracticality", the notion of temporal direction can maybe get factored out (a la Tralfamidorians) , ie many birds through their song are trying to get laid (temporal pun intended). The eaglet is the father of the eagle, neh?. We make assumptions about how birds experience time. There seems to be a "temporal emergent locality" that defines the horizons of temporal self-similarity (there's a lot of "emergent locality" stuff in the physics literature - not sure it applies here).

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:22 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Carl,

Good to hear your “voice” again?

I think you might be the person best positioned in my life to talk to me about temporal fractality. Are complex drumbeats fractal; and in what degree?

Am I over stretching the term?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Many birds do tend to migrate, so wondering what "stable environment" means here.

Also thinking there is at play the developmental environment (extended time of egg-to-bird-of-the-now) of the bird, as well as the outer moment-of-the-song environment. How does one talk about developmental self-similarity? (we have L-systems for simulated plant growth and so on). As I recall from back in the day, self-similarity has limiting scale horizons, where particular dimensions of growth or development dominate to support the self-similarity.

C
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick -
This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled.   I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.
You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape".   I would guess yes to this.    I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators.   How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide.   I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.
I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".
IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing...   I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!
- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" target="_blank">+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Carl Tollander

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In another realm, look at Japanese transverse flutes ("shinobue" or simply "fue"). So-called modern flutes are tuned to a western scale so that you can get people from different parts of the world to play songs to some reference. For example, I have a #8 "uta" flute that is tuned to C, and #6 "uta" hat is tuned to B flat. You can see this in the varied spacing, shape and diameter of holes from the major flute makers. However, due to the geography of Japan (central mountain ranges as an island "spine", short rivers, many deep and nearly parallel valleys) there are many individual traditional musics that share less of a standard. A #6 "hayashi" flute from nearby valley festivals is an approximate size; the hole size and spacing is handed down; there's not much of a common scale. So while you see some similarities in song between different valley communities, the actual notes produced have a lot of variation. These differences persist to the present internet , tunnel and train-infested day. One can go to a shop in Asakusa in Tokyo and see many barrels of recently produced hayashi flutes from different regions of every shape and size. This speaks I think to my notion of the importance of development and there is probably some analog to birdsong.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, there's order, duration, frequency and a bunch of other stuff. There is work from the signal analysis world, where people are concerned with fractal structure in signals as a means of compression, and tho its been years since I've done neural nets, I imagine heartbeats or nervous system signaling would qualify.

As you remember, I am especially concerned with continuous developmental/learning aspects, rather than specific adult organisms at a specific time in some stable environment. That said at my age I am of course biased.

In my realm there is a figure-ground relationship at different scales between the developing traditions, the drummers, the individuals in the local group playing some arranged piece in the developing tradition, the drum itself (driven amplifier dynamics), drum design (much beyond membranophone descriptions and into wood types, metamaterials, turbulent flow, variance in the thickness and biology of skins and stretching processes, and such), the physics of the drum at the time it is played (humidity, temperature, what's happening in the drum next to it, how quickly it responds to that and the individual strike, the shape, mass, elasticity and internal qualities of the drumsticks, a large number of physiological qualities of the individual drummer and how each drummer works with focus, efficiency of motion and process, the acoustic environment of the venue, the many ways in which the audience or a particular kind of audience responds and in which you can evoke or respond to those qualities. So a complex drumbeat to me might not necessarily mean a sequence of beats, but rather a single beat in which all those qualities come together coherently (to me or anyone present now or in history) in a single hit. Even if the state space of the aforementioned qualities is not precisely knowable just now.

I don't imagine this is particularly different for any musician or that it necessarily qualifies as complex as you might mean it. I'm certainly willing for that bar to be high. As some say, you are the instrument, the voyage makes the captain, etc.

Tying back to "temporal fracticality", the notion of temporal direction can maybe get factored out (a la Tralfamidorians) , ie many birds through their song are trying to get laid (temporal pun intended). The eaglet is the father of the eagle, neh?. We make assumptions about how birds experience time. There seems to be a "temporal emergent locality" that defines the horizons of temporal self-similarity (there's a lot of "emergent locality" stuff in the physics literature - not sure it applies here).

C
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:22 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Carl,

Good to hear your “voice” again?

I think you might be the person best positioned in my life to talk to me about temporal fractality. Are complex drumbeats fractal; and in what degree?

Am I over stretching the term?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Many birds do tend to migrate, so wondering what "stable environment" means here.

Also thinking there is at play the developmental environment (extended time of egg-to-bird-of-the-now) of the bird, as well as the outer moment-of-the-song environment. How does one talk about developmental self-similarity? (we have L-systems for simulated plant growth and so on). As I recall from back in the day, self-similarity has limiting scale horizons, where particular dimensions of growth or development dominate to support the self-similarity.

C
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick -
This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled.   I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.
You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape".   I would guess yes to this.    I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators.   How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide.   I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.
I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".
IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing...   I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!
- Steve

On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,

I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?

The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.

I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Dear Nick

I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.

My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).

Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" target="_blank">+56996097443
https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
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gepr

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

Rather than risk your thinking nobody wants to see it, I figured I'd chime in. I want to see the video of your cube surrounded by a voronoi tesselation.

The subject you raise comes up a lot in conversations with my clients. The extent to which an actor's mechanism is local or global can be very important both functionally and technically. Any spatial structure that is defined globally, then even if used only locally by an actor, presents a risk of inscription error (assuming one's conclusion). But this often leads one down the road to ad infinitum problems with bottom-up modeling. So, we have to compromise and allow at least some teleology. The trick is to be disciplined or put in place checks and balances that help ensure acyclic reasoning.

And I agree that the illusions you mention are primarily associated with (inappropriate) reification through transforms. You seem to be saying that some transforms present illusions and others present non-illusions (truth?). I take the opposite position ... perhaps the post-modern position ... that all transforms present illusions (or all present truth). The key is to know that you're seeing the image of a transform and cataloging that particular one (amongst its category of transforms that could have been used). Then, whether your verification methods have failed you and the transform you're using is _not_ the one you think you're using, matters less -- and can be more readily debugged.

I.e. when we're looking at an ink blot, are we aware that the more prickly ones allow less ambiguity?

On 02/15/2017 06:20 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

> I have been mulling over the thread about Representation versus Dynamicism for a bit and the differences that language imposes whenever cross-disciplines attempt to converse. Today I was struggling with some code to create Voronoi Meshes nested within each other based on nested spheres. All look well enough until I introduced a primitive solid, a Cube and tried to make everything spin in space.
>
> I needed to decide which entity or sets were coupled to which… So thinking of FEM procedures I decided to make the Voronoi Sets occupy the Global Coordinate Position and attach the Cube as a Local Coordinate System. This is rather arbitrary and can go either way. The problem appears somewhat akin to our thread, but I am aware that these distinctions are contained within the same Simulation and neither reflects a reality except by coincidence. To cope with multiple coordinate systems one requires a pertinent transformation matrix but if one is reckless the results are meaningless. The appearance of coupled systems may be illusionary and mistaken as causative.
>
> I thought today there was also a mention in Science Daily of fractals in Rorsach tests the more fractals, the more imaginative the observer’s answer.
>
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170214162838.htm
>
> It will take a few days but will try and make a video out of the apparent incongruity of these objects. The Cube is lacking any distinctive edge embellishments and troubles the mind as unreal somehow.
>
> Language always hampers exchange of ideas.

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Glen,

The Voronoi Mesh video distribution has been delayed by a connection speed problem and currently can't even view my own cloud storage. I
have found a third oddity called for lack of anything better the camera position.
as it moves I think at moments that the other two coordinate systems become conflated and it requires focused attention to account for distinct motions.

I think you have presented the problem in complex terms and have missed a simple solution. Run it Backwards and forwards , just like in calculus.
If you get the same input values from a certain output value set then it usually got you full marks. I will get this problem solved yet.
The most interesting insight is that each is connected by time...

I am losing my vision so I wish to use what is left before it all goes. This was all done in Processing 3.0.1 and I am learning it now but it reminds me a little of C++
from my old days. So if it runs backwards and forwards just give a heuristic kick in the pants and watch...
The original code libraries came from a physicist from Belgium, F. VanHoutte.
There are so many things moving that my machine may not do a good job.
My interest is to use these meshes to create Insect Wings for CGI.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjdC7pqwzaUUkxtarv1AjHWv1xVr

It is on the site but you may have to download it and open to see it. Good Luck.
let me know if it works.
vib

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: February-20-17 11:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Rather than risk your thinking nobody wants to see it, I figured I'd chime in. I want to see the video of your cube surrounded by a voronoi tesselation.

The subject you raise comes up a lot in conversations with my clients. The extent to which an actor's mechanism is local or global can be very important both functionally and technically. Any spatial structure that is defined globally, then even if used only locally by an actor, presents a risk of inscription error (assuming one's conclusion). But this often leads one down the road to ad infinitum problems with bottom-up modeling. So, we have to compromise and allow at least some teleology. The trick is to be disciplined or put in place checks and balances that help ensure acyclic reasoning.

And I agree that the illusions you mention are primarily associated with (inappropriate) reification through transforms. You seem to be saying that some transforms present illusions and others present non-illusions (truth?). I take the opposite position ... perhaps the post-modern position ... that all transforms present illusions (or all present truth). The key is to know that you're seeing the image of a transform and cataloging that particular one (amongst its category of transforms that could have been used). Then, whether your verification methods have failed you and the transform you're using is _not_ the one you think you're using, matters less -- and can be more readily debugged.

I.e. when we're looking at an ink blot, are we aware that the more prickly ones allow less ambiguity?

On 02/15/2017 06:20 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

--
☣ glen

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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by gepr

From Glen,
And I agree that the illusions you mention are primarily associated with (inappropriate) reification through transforms. You seem to be saying that some transforms present illusions and others present non-illusions (truth?). I take the opposite position ... perhaps the post-modern position ... that all transforms present illusions (or all present truth). The key is to know that you're seeing the image of a transform and cataloging that particular one (amongst its category of transforms that could have been used). Then, whether your verification methods have failed you and the transform you're using is _not_ the one you think you're using, matters less -- and can be more readily debugged.
response by vib.

This sounds like a grad lounge debate. Indeed you are right. So to fix the problem force people to pay attention for more than 10 secs.
Some music allows some people to focus longer. Maybe Taser jolts work for others. The simulation lures us into fantasy lands. Which I kinda like sometimes.
Time links these sims of mine but temporality is a coincidence not a true cause and we don't live long enough to test every contingency, so we make do with delusions. There seems no path out of this box. The box just grows with us.
vib

So why did evolution place so much emphasis on time...

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: February-20-17 11:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Rather than risk your thinking nobody wants to see it, I figured I'd chime in. I want to see the video of your cube surrounded by a voronoi tesselation.

The subject you raise comes up a lot in conversations with my clients. The extent to which an actor's mechanism is local or global can be very important both functionally and technically. Any spatial structure that is defined globally, then even if used only locally by an actor, presents a risk of inscription error (assuming one's conclusion). But this often leads one down the road to ad infinitum problems with bottom-up modeling. So, we have to compromise and allow at least some teleology. The trick is to be disciplined or put in place checks and balances that help ensure acyclic reasoning.

And I agree that the illusions you mention are primarily associated with (inappropriate) reification through transforms. You seem to be saying that some transforms present illusions and others present non-illusions (truth?). I take the opposite position ... perhaps the post-modern position ... that all transforms present illusions (or all present truth). The key is to know that you're seeing the image of a transform and cataloging that particular one (amongst its category of transforms that could have been used). Then, whether your verification methods have failed you and the transform you're using is _not_ the one you think you're using, matters less -- and can be more readily debugged.

I.e. when we're looking at an ink blot, are we aware that the more prickly ones allow less ambiguity?

On 02/15/2017 06:20 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

gepr

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

Works perfectly! And cool music, BTW. I see now that you were talking about a tesselation of the sphere's surface. I thought you intended a 3D irregular grid. Regardless, I certainly didn't notice the camera issue. I did notice an odd squashing of the earth textured sphere, though.

On 02/20/2017 10:12 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

> Glen,
>
> The Voronoi Mesh video distribution has been delayed by a connection speed problem and currently can't even view my own cloud storage. I
> have found a third oddity called for lack of anything better the camera position.
> as it moves I think at moments that the other two coordinate systems become conflated and it requires focused attention to account for distinct motions.
>
> I think you have presented the problem in complex terms and have missed a simple solution. Run it Backwards and forwards , just like in calculus.
> If you get the same input values from a certain output value set then it usually got you full marks. I will get this problem solved yet.
> The most interesting insight is that each is connected by time...
>
> I am losing my vision so I wish to use what is left before it all goes. This was all done in Processing 3.0.1 and I am learning it now but it reminds me a little of C++
> from my old days. So if it runs backwards and forwards just give a heuristic kick in the pants and watch...
> The original code libraries came from a physicist from Belgium, F. VanHoutte.
> There are so many things moving that my machine may not do a good job.
> My interest is to use these meshes to create Insect Wings for CGI.
>
> https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjdC7pqwzaUUkxtarv1AjHWv1xVr
>
> It is on the site but you may have to download it and open to see it. Good Luck.
> let me know if it works.

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

gepr

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

There's no doubt that there's some kernel of truth to the concept of "flow" or "in the zone". I always make the mistake of thinking others have had similar experiences to mine. But at our journal club a few weeks ago, while discussing whether math is invented or discovered, one guy kept conflating mathematical symbols with their semantic grounding. A couple of us kept trying to make the point that after you've abstracted all the symbols away from their grounding, so that you're just manipulating the symbols, you get into the state where you start to think of the math, itself, as having an ontological existence. You're "in the zone", so to speak, where the math becomes real as opposed to a proxy for the real. That the other guy couldn't grok it could be a sign that he's never entered that zone, hamstrung by his grounding to physical reality.

Or, he could have simply felt defensive because he thought we kept attacking him ... you never know how some people interpret the milieu.

On 02/20/2017 10:44 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:
> Some music allows some people to focus longer. Maybe Taser jolts work for others. The simulation lures us into fantasy lands. Which I kinda like sometimes.
> Time links these sims of mine but temporality is a coincidence not a true cause and we don't live long enough to test every contingency, so we make do with delusions. There seems no path out of this box. The box just grows with us.
> vib
>
> So why did evolution place so much emphasis on time...

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Robert Wall

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Hi Glen,

What you describe as flow or being in the zone has been precisely written and talked about by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi as the Optimal Experience. No one will experience this quite the same way, as the flow experience requires both skill and challenge in an area where flow will occur. By his own statements, Einstein is said to have been in flow when he synthesized the concept of General and Special Relativity. At the time he was arguably very skilled in math and physics and, of course, very challenged.

However, I prefer Alfred North Whitehead's (et al.) concept that we are all always in flow. We just don't alway realize it. In his Process Philosophy, as conveyed in his Process and Reality, he writes about the two modes of perceptual experience: (1) Presentational Immediacy [the bits of data that get presented to us through our senses--or imagination] and (2) Causal Efficacy [the conditioning of the present by the past]. Curiously, Csikszentmihalyi says that we can only process data from our senses at a rate of 110 bit/sec. Reading this post likely will chew up 60 bits/sec. of that bandwidth. 😴

Why I bring this up at all is that Whitehead thinks that what integrates these two modes into the whole of what we perceive is Symbolic Reference. Symbolic reference is kind of like how we tag bits of our real-world immersion for building a largely symbolic but sustainable--for us individually--worldview. Most time these symbolic references are provided to us--inculcated--by others like with a religion or by our parents. Most are satisfied with that. In your friend's case, I believe it is possible that y' all were unsettling--challenging--his worldview ... or, he challenging yours.

Flow is not likely to be aroused in a social context. It is an inner state ... what the Greeks and Csikszentmihalyi would say is the entering into an alternate reality devoid of our sense of self. Your existence melts away in such a state. So our symbols get challenged or, perhaps, disappear as well. French social philosophers Jean Baudrillard and Gilles Deleuze also talk about symbolism, but it was at a social level. As far as I am concerned, Flow can't be achieved at the level of society ... but, boy I wish that that were not so. Csikszentmihalyi talks about the opposite of Flow that occurs on a social level that often occurs when society has been thrown into a chaos as with war or Trumpism. 🤔

Is mathematics invented or discovered? This is a perennial topic that arises within my philosophy group. It never really gets resolved, but how could it be? It is the ultimate of symbolic reference systems because of its precision in predicting the way the world manifests itself to our perception. This is not so true of our other symbols or abstractions. So are they any different? In a way, they are because mathematical symbols form from an axiom-driven language. But, notwithstanding Jerry Fodor's "built-in" syntactic language of thought, languages are human inventions based on metaphors [if you like George Lakoff]. Languages work among cultures because they are more or less conventional (acceptable) to a culture. The fact that they can be translated into other languages is because we are all immersed in the same reality. In this way, I tend to think of mathematics as invented. If you are a Platonist--a worldview--you will likely disagree.

As I often do, I kind of resonate with Vladimyr's thought, which you included in your post. It is very Csikszentmihalyi-est. I do think that simulations can lure us into thinking that they are an exact dynamic facsimile of the reality which they try to abstract into an analytical model. There are all kinds of things about simulations that can lead us astray. Fidelity is one thing, obviously. But, I think that the worst thing--and this is often the fate of a simulator because of time and funding--is when they get so complicated that no one understands the process for how the results were computed. This--like with many neural networks--is when the simulator just become an Oracle. This is kind of what happened with Henry Markam's Blue Brain Project, building a simulation of something for which they didn't know the first principles. I think also this is what John Horgan wrote about concerning what was going on at the Santa Fe Institute in his SA article From Complexity to Perplexity.

But, as Vladimyr muses, maybe this is the best we can do ... and symbolic reference is what nature served up for us to cope, concerning what we are perceiving. But, as with all smart systems, a smart entity will always try to challenge and refine those symbols with continuous feedback--FLOW. However, in the larger scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if mathematics was invented or discovered. I mean, where did the concept of a hammer come from? 🤔

Cheers

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:13 AM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's no doubt that there's some kernel of truth to the concept of "flow" or "in the zone". I always make the mistake of thinking others have had similar experiences to mine. But at our journal club a few weeks ago, while discussing whether math is invented or discovered, one guy kept conflating mathematical symbols with their semantic grounding. A couple of us kept trying to make the point that after you've abstracted all the symbols away from their grounding, so that you're just manipulating the symbols, you get into the state where you start to think of the math, itself, as having an ontological existence. You're "in the zone", so to speak, where the math becomes real as opposed to a proxy for the real. That the other guy couldn't grok it could be a sign that he's never entered that zone, hamstrung by his grounding to physical reality.

Or, he could have simply felt defensive because he thought we kept attacking him ... you never know how some people interpret the milieu.

On 02/20/2017 10:44 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:
> Some music allows some people to focus longer. Maybe Taser jolts work for others. The simulation lures us into fantasy lands. Which I kinda like sometimes.
> Time links these sims of mine but temporality is a coincidence not a true cause and we don't live long enough to test every contingency, so we make do with delusions. There seems no path out of this box. The box just grows with us.
> vib
>
> So why did evolution place so much emphasis on time...

--
☣ glen

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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen,

Thank You.

Now we enter into a salient area where dispute could arise if I take you too literally.

The Mesh is irregular and can't be called a proper tessalation since there are no repeated elements or tiles. I assume VanHoutte only cheated slightly in his code'
The points positions on the surface are random but the connecting lines will be straight lines only touching the sphere at exactly the points. I suppose the Voronoi Cells can be regarded as highly irregular tiles that only touch the sphere at points. The higher my points count the better the resolution but the cells still only touch the sphere at points. The only way I know to place edges on a sphere is to use parametric equations connecting point to point using Geodesic Paths. Eventually those lines will converge on the 2 Pole Points and Pucker together.

There are several problems with the camera libraries I am using and this is probably due to the writers choice to keep the largest object centered in the screen.
There is also a back clipping plane that allows objects to disappear in the far distance, also a undisclosed camera field of view.

Indeed the earth mapping may be squashed as definitely is true of the sun. The two issues are only related by my inexcusable lack of technique.

In my effort to examine human visual bandwidth limitations some details are lost somewhere in the brain. For example some objects are spinning as well as rotating and others are translating and rotating. The sun is growing while spinning but is not translating. It was my intent to baffle myself. What I did learn is that it is not difficult to do so, but that longer observation does establish and embed more details or features. So my brain might be overwhelmed in the short term but self corrects with time and effort. Other research shows that people see less than is really falling on their retinas. The brain only presents what it expects, not the truth. This undermines most philosophical discussions since our sight is less than virtuous.

In the case of Truth versus Representation we seem to be forced to apply imposed geometries and time... Or each observer imposes these elements and that is where most disputes arise. It seems humans need little reason to start to bicker.

I am slowly trying to build a website to present clever ideas a very few are mine, but they all pertain to data visualization in some manner.

In some manner every representation whatever default settings have been applied should be recoverable with every other representation and coherent.
The more coherent viewpoints the closer the approximation of Truth.
vib

vib

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ?glen?
Sent: February-21-17 10:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs

Works perfectly! And cool music, BTW. I see now that you were talking about a tesselation of the sphere's surface. I thought you intended a 3D irregular grid. Regardless, I certainly didn't notice the camera issue. I did notice an odd squashing of the earth textured sphere, though.

On 02/20/2017 10:12 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:

> Glen,
>
> The Voronoi Mesh video distribution has been delayed by a connection
> speed problem and currently can't even view my own cloud storage. I have found a third oddity called for lack of anything better the camera position.
> as it moves I think at moments that the other two coordinate systems become conflated and it requires focused attention to account for distinct motions.
>
> I think you have presented the problem in complex terms and have missed a simple solution. Run it Backwards and forwards , just like in calculus.
> If you get the same input values from a certain output value set then it usually got you full marks. I will get this problem solved yet.
> The most interesting insight is that each is connected by time...
>
> I am losing my vision so I wish to use what is left before it all
> goes. This was all done in Processing 3.0.1 and I am learning it now but it reminds me a little of C++ from my old days. So if it runs backwards and forwards just give a heuristic kick in the pants and watch...
> The original code libraries came from a physicist from Belgium, F. VanHoutte.
> There are so many things moving that my machine may not do a good job.
> My interest is to use these meshes to create Insect Wings for CGI.
>
> https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjdC7pqwzaUUkxtarv1AjHWv1xVr
>
> It is on the site but you may have to download it and open to see it. Good Luck.
> let me know if it works.

--
␦glen?

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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