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End most covid transmission?

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thompnickson2

End most covid transmission?

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: End most covid transmission?

Nick writes: "We know that most covid transmission is hand to face".

Do we know that? I thought it was by inhaling micro droplets from infected people coughing, sneezing, and even breathing. How does it get into the body from your face?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:39 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick, this almost sounds like Trump's suggestion to inhale Lysol, or whatever he said. Sorry.

I am not a materials scientist but I know one. By the way, where has Bill been?

Frank

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:38 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

thompnickson2

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Gary,

Well I keep getting conflicting information on that. That masks are effective would suggest droplet transmission, but masks also interfere with hand to mouth transmission. In any case, given the important – if not primary -- role of hands in transmission, there must be SOME reason people aren’t thinking of virus-unfriendly glove materials as a partial protection against the disease.

Also, for you chemists out there: is a dry acid still an acid?

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 12:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick writes: "We know that most covid transmission is hand to face".

Do we know that? I thought it was by inhaling micro droplets from infected people coughing, sneezing, and even breathing. How does it get into the body from your face?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:39 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Prof David West

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick,

Copper kills virus on contact. There are masks sold with copper fibers woven into them and they are cited as effective by CDC. There are also gloves with copper fibers woven in, but they are not being touted because almost all attention is on droplet transmission, not surface.

davew

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020, at 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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David Eric Smith

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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thompnickson2

Re: End most covid transmission?

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: End most covid transmission?

Nick,

I apologize for not taking it seriously. I'm sorry.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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thompnickson2

Re: End most covid transmission?

No worries, Frank. It didn’t really deserve to be taken seriously. It’s one of those “emperor’s new clothes” ideas that we all have from time to time, based on the outrageously arrogant and preposterous idea that I see things that the experts haven’t seen, and if only, etc., the world would be a better place and I would be rich and famous, etc. I love the idea of walking around the world in proton-emitting polymer gloves that would no doubt etch the surface of everything I touched. Fingerprint Man!

The great thing about friam is there is often somebody wlling to kick around almost any old idea.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick,

I apologize for not taking it seriously. I'm sorry.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: End most covid transmission?

I still wonder what happened to Bill McCallum. He hadn't come for some time before we switched to Zoom.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:53 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

No worries, Frank. It didn’t really deserve to be taken seriously. It’s one of those “emperor’s new clothes” ideas that we all have from time to time, based on the outrageously arrogant and preposterous idea that I see things that the experts haven’t seen, and if only, etc., the world would be a better place and I would be rich and famous, etc. I love the idea of walking around the world in proton-emitting polymer gloves that would no doubt etch the surface of everything I touched. Fingerprint Man!

The great thing about friam is there is often somebody wlling to kick around almost any old idea.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick,

I apologize for not taking it seriously. I'm sorry.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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thompnickson2

Re: End most covid transmission?

Does anybody have bill McCallum’s email address?

If you send it to me personally, I will try to get him to join us.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:56 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

I still wonder what happened to Bill McCallum. He hadn't come for some time before we switched to Zoom.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:53 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

No worries, Frank. It didn’t really deserve to be taken seriously. It’s one of those “emperor’s new clothes” ideas that we all have from time to time, based on the outrageously arrogant and preposterous idea that I see things that the experts haven’t seen, and if only, etc., the world would be a better place and I would be rich and famous, etc. I love the idea of walking around the world in proton-emitting polymer gloves that would no doubt etch the surface of everything I touched. Fingerprint Man!

The great thing about friam is there is often somebody wlling to kick around almost any old idea.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick,

I apologize for not taking it seriously. I'm sorry.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: End most covid transmission?

[hidden email]

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 10:03 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Does anybody have bill McCallum’s email address?

If you send it to me personally, I will try to get him to join us.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:56 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

I still wonder what happened to Bill McCallum. He hadn't come for some time before we switched to Zoom.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:53 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
No worries, Frank. It didn’t really deserve to be taken seriously. It’s one of those “emperor’s new clothes” ideas that we all have from time to time, based on the outrageously arrogant and preposterous idea that I see things that the experts haven’t seen, and if only, etc., the world would be a better place and I would be rich and famous, etc. I love the idea of walking around the world in proton-emitting polymer gloves that would no doubt etch the surface of everything I touched. Fingerprint Man!

The great thing about friam is there is often somebody wlling to kick around almost any old idea.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick,

I apologize for not taking it seriously. I'm sorry.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:32 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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David Eric Smith

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Hi Nick,

No, I don’t think vinegar will stay on the gloves. Acetic acid is a volatile, so it just evaporates away.

Best,

Eric

On Jun 24, 2020, at 12:32 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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thompnickson2

Re: End most covid transmission?

Thanks, Eric.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 12:40 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Hi Nick,

No, I don’t think vinegar will stay on the gloves. Acetic acid is a volatile, so it just evaporates away.

Best,

Eric

On Jun 24, 2020, at 12:32 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: End most covid transmission?

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

Dear Nick. Please oh please keep trying!

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:41 AM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Nick,

No, I don’t think vinegar will stay on the gloves. Acetic acid is a volatile, so it just evaporates away.

Best,

Eric

On Jun 24, 2020, at 12:32 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric and all,

Thanks for taking it seriously. Do we know anyone who could comment on the notion further. Would cotton gloves washed in vinegar be anti viral when dried?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] End most covid transmission?

Nick and all, hi,

This will be completely un-useful and un-actionable to anybody, but the way you phrased your question is interesting anyway.

When there was a push to develop fuel cells with polymer membranes, to get away from platinum-palladium catalysts, one of the problems was that they needed a membrane that would be proton-donating (so, functioning as an acid by the Bronsted definition). There was a heavy raft of work for perhaps a decade (maybe much longer) on polymer materials that have very acidic side-chains. I don’t know how anything like that behaves if it is out under air, rather than in a fluid environment. But if viruses are not dry, and are hosted in small droplets for a time, perhaps that distinction is less relevant.

In any case, considering that the glove industry is probably entirely predicated on reducing unit cost, and that I have no idea what the elasticity may be of fuel cell membrane polymers, they probably will not be glove material anytime soon. I haven’t even looked at that literature for, what, maybe 15 years (?). So I have no idea what the state of development is now.

Eric.

On Jun 23, 2020, at 3:38 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Any materials experts out there?

Ok, so. We know that most covid transmission is hand to face and we know that the virus is highly vulnerable to acids and some other substances. Is it not possible to design gloves (and perhaps masks) with those substances embedded? How about cloth gloves dunked in vinegar and hung out to dry before wearing? Is vinegar still acid when it’s dry?

Yeah. I know. Dumb. But somebody explain to me why.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

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mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff