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Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

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Russ Abbott

Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

Russ,

For years, chicken breeders selected their chickens at the individual level, even though they were placing them in close quarters in crates of nine chickens. Chickens had to be debeaked and they were constantly pulling dead chickens out of the pens. . So, one day, a couple of poultry husbandry guys got a bright idea. They selected the best PENS of chickens for breeding. Pen rates of reproduction went up and the need for debeaking went away. If anybody is curious, I will chase down the reference.

I guess even a pen of chickens can be a black box.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 10:32:44 AM

Subject: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

Thanks Nick. I know (and love) the story. Here's my blog post about it. It shows that a pen of chickens is an entity.

-- Russ

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

For years, chicken breeders selected their chickens at the individual level, even though they were placing them in close quarters in crates of nine chickens. Chickens had to be debeaked and they were constantly pulling dead chickens out of the pens. . So, one day, a couple of poultry husbandry guys got a bright idea. They selected the best PENS of chickens for breeding. Pen rates of reproduction went up and the need for debeaking went away. If anybody is curious, I will chase down the reference.

I guess even a pen of chickens can be a black box.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 10:32:44 AM

Subject: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

Russ Abbott

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Nick,

I don't think we have an issue. "No group genes" means that there are groups aren't biological entities in the sense that they have biological genes. Goups work because the genes of the individuals lead to effective group behavior. Those genes could be called group genes, but they are really genes in individuals. In fact, in social systems one could argue that there are group genes: constitutions, written down organizational structures, etc.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles
o Check out my blog at http://russabbott.blogspot.com/

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

I think I may disagree that there are no "group genes". Well, unless one defines gene in such a limited way that there are no genes at all. Please see attached. I apologize for its size., which is stupid and unnecessary. The paper is not that big. I promise.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 8:34:35 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

Thanks Nick. I know (and love) the story. Here's my blog post about it. It shows that a pen of chickens is an entity.

-- Russ

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

For years, chicken breeders selected their chickens at the individual level, even though they were placing them in close quarters in crates of nine chickens. Chickens had to be debeaked and they were constantly pulling dead chickens out of the pens. . So, one day, a couple of poultry husbandry guys got a bright idea. They selected the best PENS of chickens for breeding. Pen rates of reproduction went up and the need for debeaking went away. If anybody is curious, I will chase down the reference.

I guess even a pen of chickens can be a black box.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 10:32:44 AM

Subject: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

Nick Thompson

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ,

I think I may disagree that there are no "group genes". Well, unless one defines gene in such a limited way that there are no genes at all. Please http://www.behavior.org/journals_BP/2000/thompson.pdf. I apologize for its size., which is stupid and unnecessary, and all my fault. The paper is not that big. I promise.

The mechanisms that produce inheritance are so far from validating the notion of an "atom of inheritance" that the fact that there are ANY traits that are passed reliably from generation to generation now seems to me a miracle. Please see THE PLAUSIBILITY OF LIFE by those two Harvard guys whose names i can never remember.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 8:34:35 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

Thanks Nick. I know (and love) the story. Here's my blog post about it. It shows that a pen of chickens is an entity.

-- Russ

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

For years, chicken breeders selected their chickens at the individual level, even though they were placing them in close quarters in crates of nine chickens. Chickens had to be debeaked and they were constantly pulling dead chickens out of the pens. . So, one day, a couple of poultry husbandry guys got a bright idea. They selected the best PENS of chickens for breeding. Pen rates of reproduction went up and the need for debeaking went away. If anybody is curious, I will chase down the reference.

I guess even a pen of chickens can be a black box.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 10:32:44 AM

Subject: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

If you have never been to a chicken breeding facility, you should make it a point to do so. It will graphically illustrate for you a new depth in man's inhumanity to other living beings.

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ,

For years, chicken breeders selected their chickens at the individual level, even though they were placing them in close quarters in crates of nine chickens. Chickens had to be debeaked and they were constantly pulling dead chickens out of the pens. . So, one day, a couple of poultry husbandry guys got a bright idea. They selected the best PENS of chickens for breeding. Pen rates of reproduction went up and the need for debeaking went away. If anybody is curious, I will chase down the reference.

I guess even a pen of chickens can be a black box.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/15/2009 10:32:44 AM

Subject: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

After sending the previous message I started reading this (long) article: The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com. Here's a key paragraph.

The five players on any basketball team are far more than the sum of their parts; the Rockets devote a lot of energy to untangling subtle interactions among the team's elements. To get at this they need something that basketball hasn't historically supplied: meaningful statistics. For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. ("Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot.") How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player's value as a rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player's zone.

That's a nice illustration of emergence. It may be subtle, but it's not magical or mysterious. To create the emergent level of abstraction that the paragraph refers to, the components have to work together in the right way.

-- Russ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Jochen Fromm-4

Re: Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Some memes and social rituals can behave like group genes - for example the
ten commandments of the bible, or religions in general. They use groups as
throw-away vehicles to lever themselves into the next generation. The
founder of the Christian religion said "For where two or three are gathered
together in My name, I am there in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20), which
means that the spirit of the group - whatever this is - comes only alive if
the group is assembled. Randall Collins describes the sociological side of
religion in his book "Sociological Insight: An Introduction to Non-Obvious
Sociology". I miss this aspect in Dawkins book "The God Delusion". By the
way, an interesting paper. It is remarkable that one of the most basic laws
of nature - evolution by natural selection - is basically a metaphor.
Darwin's "natural selection" is a metaphor, Dawkins' "selfish gene", too.

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Nicholas Thompson
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Emergence: The No-Stats All-Star

Russ,

I think I may disagree that there are no "group genes". Well, unless one
defines gene in such a limited way that there are no genes at all. Please
http://www.behavior.org/journals_BP/2000/thompson.pdf. I apologize for its
size., which is stupid and unnecessary, and all my fault. The paper is not
that big. I promise.

The mechanisms that produce inheritance are so far from validating the
notion of an "atom of inheritance" that the fact that there are ANY traits
that are passed reliably from generation to generation now seems to me a
miracle. Please see THE PLAUSIBILITY OF LIFE by those two Harvard guys
whose names i can never remember.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org