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> The new point they have made is that the Niche and the Gene are two > things that can be inherited, for which the rules of inheritence > differ, and for which they can be formalized in some cases, so you > have committed to specific dynamical models, as opposed to just being > descriptive. [..] It seems like the place > Feldman et al have gained a pawn on the problem is expanding this to > include models of inherited environments within a similarly specific > framework, to see how that alters the evolution of the distributions. How can there be an inheritance in environments ? What exactly is inherited in "ecological inheritance" ? There is no ecological replicator. You can only construct an ecological "inheritance tree" which is based on artificial classifications. There seems to be a kind of natural duality between species and ecological niches, firms and economic niches, job holders and jobs, and between populations and habitats. What is the special approach from Feldman et al ? They say niches can be described by inheritance trees, because species are subject to inheritance, and species are adapted to niches ? All species together form a big tree of life (see http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/tol/ ), and each species lives in a certain niche, so we have a tree of niches, too ? |
Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>The new point they have made is that the Niche and the Gene are two >>things that can be inherited, for which the rules of inheritence >>differ, and for which they can be formalized in some cases, so you >>have committed to specific dynamical models, as opposed to just being >>descriptive. [..] It seems like the place >>Feldman et al have gained a pawn on the problem is expanding this to >>include models of inherited environments within a similarly specific >>framework, to see how that alters the evolution of the distributions. > > > How can there be an inheritance in environments ? > What exactly is inherited in "ecological inheritance" ? > There is no ecological replicator. You can only construct > an ecological "inheritance tree" which is based on artificial > classifications. I definitely need to read this book. Well, a tree is barely a reasonable structure for representing organic inheritance. The inheritance relations of sexual species require a lattice. Exactly how we're going to sort out the lateral transfer relations among microbes is an open question, and opening still further now that we're getting the environmental sequencing experiments that are showing how few of the organisms present have ever been censused and how many lateral transfer paths there are. The niche inheritance relation will be further complicated by the action of causes at different time scales. > There seems to be a kind of natural duality between > species and ecological niches, firms and economic niches, > job holders and jobs, and between populations and habitats. > What is the special approach from Feldman et al ? They > say niches can be described by inheritance trees, because > species are subject to inheritance, and species are adapted > to niches ? All species together form a big tree of life (see > http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/tol/ ), and > each species lives in a certain niche, so we have a > tree of niches, too ? One of the most striking examples of niche construction that I found while googling the term is one which was studied by Rene Dubos many years ago: the mammalian gut and the bacterial flora that live in it. The morphology of the intestinal wall which is medically recognized as "normal" is only achieved when a "normal" ecosystem of gut bacteria is in residence. The gut wall and the gut ecosystem co-develop into different steady states depending on the initial culture of flora transferred to the infant and the dietary practices of the culture. A "normal" morphology in one culture might appear as a pathology in another culture. -- rec -- |
In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm
Hi Jochen,
> > The new point they have made is that the Niche and the Gene are two > > things that can be inherited, for which the rules of inheritence > > differ, and for which they can be formalized in some cases, so you > > have committed to specific dynamical models, as opposed to just being > > descriptive. [..] It seems like the place > > Feldman et al have gained a pawn on the problem is expanding this to > > include models of inherited environments within a similarly specific > > framework, to see how that alters the evolution of the distributions. > > How can there be an inheritance in environments ? > What exactly is inherited in "ecological inheritance" ? > There is no ecological replicator. You can only construct > an ecological "inheritance tree" which is based on artificial > classifications. Yes, over the last couple of days I have been thinking about how I would have wanted to lay this out more carefully. Inheritence as I was using the term need not mean duplication or replication, with the replicate instantiating whatever is inherited. Biological inheritence through those mechanisms is one instance of inheritence, in the sense that a pattern is preserved through time as other details of population structure change. But mere physical preservation is also inheritence in the looser sense I intended. The way I probably could have said it better was this: Why _not_ just talk about the "extended phenotype"? In a standard population-genetic model, selection acts by determining whose phenotype will be reproduced before the individual dies. No matter what, the instantiation of the phenotype by each individual dies in each generation. The interesting properties of that phenotype survive only if represented in the offspring, so here the phenotype is passed through time only via reproduction, which means that the number of its instances is exactly the same as the number of individuals who are, themselves, then subject to selection. There can also be variation at the reproduction stage, but I suspect the more important constraint is that the redundancy of the instantiation of the phenotype is closely tied to the redundancy of the units of selection, and that is an extremely specific model of boundaries for properties within the population. But a niche that some individual actively participates in shaping doesn't vanish at the death of the individual, getting reproduced with variation in the body of the individual's offspring. So it need not satisfy the same constraints and channels of passage through time that the population-genetic models take as starting structure. I think that the mathematical thing the Feldman etal book want to capture is those aspects of the niche that are "as manufactured" as the rest of the phenotype, but that pass to the next generations without the death/reproduction interface, and thus not necessarily with a redundancy in proportion to the number of dead/reproduced individuals. (For Niches, suddently it isn't even obviously important that there is a measure of "redundancy" that is especially important. Perhaps volume and physical inertia instead.) > There seems to be a kind of natural duality between > species and ecological niches, firms and economic niches, > job holders and jobs, and between populations and habitats. Yes, I think this is a deep statement. My worry in the Feldman etal development (I work on metabolism) is that the very act of being alive is the act of impacting the environment, so it is very hard not to tie every living act to something inherited outside the individual. In some sense, Niche Construction seems to have a Goldilocks point where you don't try to do too much with it: look at the metabolically neutral and relatively decoupled innovations by species, and ask where a few details modify the strict phenotype-only models for persistence through time, and decouple the constraints on persistence from those on the unit of selection. > What is the special approach from Feldman et al ? They > say niches can be described by inheritance trees, because > species are subject to inheritance, and species are adapted > to niches ? All species together form a big tree of life (see > http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/tol/ ), and > each species lives in a certain niche, so we have a > tree of niches, too ? Hmm. Eric |
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