Does increasing diversity affect the stability in ecosystems and food-webs? If so, is the effect positive or negative, i.e. does increasing diversity lead to stability or fragility of the system ? Common sense says that systems with low diversity (for instance artificial monocultures) have low stability and are vulnerable to parasites, infections and diseases. Yet does declining diversity ultimately lead to reductions in food-chain length and ecosystem stability ? The relation between diversity, food-chain length and ecological processes seens to be complex. Ecosystems do not contain only linear food-chains, they consist of complex recurrent food-webs. If I remember it correctly, even in simple Lotka-Volterra equations with more than 2 dimensions chaotic structures can arise (in 2 dimensions with 2 species there is the usual predator-prey limit cycle, but in 3 dimensions there are also strange attractors possible. I have read it somewhere, but I can't remember where). Insights in this ongoing diversity-stability debate could be useful, because consumer-producer or predator-prey relations can be found in many complex systems. The SFI has an interesting site with many links about it at http://discuss.santafe.edu/paleofoodwebs/ for example the following: (a) The diversity-stability debate Kevin Shear McCann, Nature 405 (2000) 228-233 http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/McCann2000Nature.pdf (b) The long and short of food-chain length David M. Post, Trends in Ecology & Evolution Vol.17 No.6 June (2002) 269-277 http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Post2002TREE.pdf (c) Stability in Real Food Webs: Weak Links in Long Loops Anje-Margriet Neutel et al., Science 296 (2002) 1120-1123 http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Neuteletal2002Science.pdf (a) is a nice review, (b) argues that the food-chain length is influenced by many factors, ecosystem size and age, degree of ecological isolation, natural resource availability, and predator-prey interactions, and (c) says that "trophic loops", i.e. closed food-chains, add stability to the system, esp. the particularly long ones which contain many weak links. They found that "loop weights" of the longer loops were low in real systems. -J. |
On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 06:31:06PM +0100, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> > Does increasing diversity affect the stability in > ecosystems and food-webs? If so, is the effect positive > or negative, i.e. does increasing diversity lead to > stability or fragility of the system ? Common sense > says that systems with low diversity (for instance artificial > monocultures) have low stability and are vulnerable > to parasites, infections and diseases. > > Yet does declining diversity ultimately lead to reductions > in food-chain length and ecosystem stability ? The relation > between diversity, food-chain length and ecological processes > seens to be complex. Ecosystems do not contain only linear > food-chains, they consist of complex recurrent food-webs. There are many different notions of stability used in ecosystems, and one needs to keep this in mind to unravel the debate. The 3 I've mainly used are: 1) linear stability - this is _the_ mathematical notion of stability of an equilibrium point. Robert May proved increased diversity lead to a decrease in stability of the interior equilibrium point for a randomly assembled L-V ecosystem. Whilst not proven (to my knowledge), it is widely assume to hold for general ecosystems. 2) persistence - the absence of extinctions in the future of the ecosystem. This is not the same as stability, as the ecosystem need not be at equilibrium (the classic 2 species L-V limit cycle is an example). Some results are known about this - eg the determinant of the interaction matrix must be positive for persistence to hold in L-V systems. This in turn implies that positive feedback loops must be dominated by the negative feed back loops - I've got a comment about this in my paper "Ecolab, Webworld and self-organisation", which is available from my website below. 3) resilience - resistance to invasion by another species. Not so much is known about resilience. Ted Case has done some work on this. Obviously it is very easy for one species to invade a simple ecosystem - eg you parasite above, but for complex systems it is not known whether the general effect is resilience to invasion, or fragility (being disrupted by invading species) (at least to my knowledge). > If I remember it correctly, even in simple Lotka-Volterra > equations with more than 2 dimensions chaotic structures can > arise (in 2 dimensions with 2 species there is the usual > predator-prey limit cycle, but in 3 dimensions there are > also strange attractors possible. I have read it somewhere, > but I can't remember where). This is a well known result from dynamical systems. 2D systems can only have stable point attractors, or limit cycles - no strange attractor. A Mexican chap whose name escapes me for the present proved this in the 1980s. > > Insights in this ongoing diversity-stability debate > could be useful, because consumer-producer or > predator-prey relations can be found in many complex > systems. The SFI has an interesting site with > many links about it at http://discuss.santafe.edu/paleofoodwebs/ > for example the following: > > (a) > The diversity-stability debate > Kevin Shear McCann, Nature 405 (2000) 228-233 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/McCann2000Nature.pdf > > (b) > The long and short of food-chain length > David M. Post, Trends in Ecology & Evolution Vol.17 No.6 June (2002) 269-277 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Post2002TREE.pdf > > (c) > Stability in Real Food Webs: Weak Links in Long Loops > Anje-Margriet Neutel et al., Science 296 (2002) 1120-1123 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Neuteletal2002Science.pdf > > (a) is a nice review, (b) argues that the food-chain length is > influenced by many factors, ecosystem size and age, degree of > ecological isolation, natural resource availability, and > predator-prey interactions, and (c) says that "trophic loops", > i.e. closed food-chains, add stability to the system, esp. > the particularly long ones which contain many weak links. > They found that "loop weights" of the longer loops were low > in real systems. > See above - they add "stability" ie persistence really provided there are more negative feedback loops than positive one. May's result (complexity begets instabily) holds because randomly assembled ecosystems tend to have more positive feedback loops that negative ones. The determinant result mentioned above would seem to indicate a 50-50 chance of a persistent system (ie a random determinant is as likely to be +ve ad -ve) but remember this is a necessary result only, not sufficient. No -ve determinant ecosystem can be persistent, but not all +ve ones are either. > -J. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http://www.friam.org -- *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you may safely ignore this attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) Mathematics 0425 253119 (") UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-3
Here's a talk at Northeastern tomorrow that relates to this topic,
with a CS focus instead of a biological one. I thought I would pass it along, more to highlight the work itself than to have people attend (which I'm sure would be very difficult for most FRIAMers). The speaker's web page is: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/riccardo/ -Dan ------ TITLE: A SEMANTIC FRAMEWORK FOR DIVERSITY WHO: Professor Riccardo Pucella WHEN: Thursday (November 10th), 3:00 PM, 366 WVH ABSTRACT Computers that execute the same program risk being vulnerable to the same attacks. This explains why the Internet, whose machines typically have much software in common, is so susceptible to viruses, worms, and other forms of malware. It is also a reason that replication of servers does not necessarily enhance the availability of a service subject to attack. Diversity is an obvious defense. A set of replicas is diverse in so far as all implement the same functionality but differ in their implementation details. Diverse replicas are less prone to having vulnerabilities in common, because attacks typically depend on memory layout and/or instruction sequence specifics. But building multiple distinct versions of a program is expensive, so researchers have turned to mechanical means for creating diverse replicas via transformations: relocation and/or padding the run-time stack by random amounts, re-arranging basic blocks and code within basic blocks, and randomly changing the names of system calls or instruction opcodes. Different classes of transformations are more or less effective in defending against different classes of attacks. Although knowing this correspondence is important when designing a set of defenses for a given threat model, knowing the correspondences is not the same as knowing the overall power of mechanically-generated diversity as a defense. In this talk, I explore that latter, broader, issue, investigating two complementary points: (1) a formal characterization of what attacks cannot be blunted by mechanically-generated diversity, and (2) a rigorous comparison of mechanically-generated diversity to type systems, another commonly advocated defense. This is joint work with Fred Schneider (Cornell University). On 11/9/05, Jochen Fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote: > > Does increasing diversity affect the stability in > ecosystems and food-webs? If so, is the effect positive > or negative, i.e. does increasing diversity lead to > stability or fragility of the system ? Common sense > says that systems with low diversity (for instance artificial > monocultures) have low stability and are vulnerable > to parasites, infections and diseases. > > Yet does declining diversity ultimately lead to reductions > in food-chain length and ecosystem stability ? The relation > between diversity, food-chain length and ecological processes > seens to be complex. Ecosystems do not contain only linear > food-chains, they consist of complex recurrent food-webs. > If I remember it correctly, even in simple Lotka-Volterra > equations with more than 2 dimensions chaotic structures can > arise (in 2 dimensions with 2 species there is the usual > predator-prey limit cycle, but in 3 dimensions there are > also strange attractors possible. I have read it somewhere, > but I can't remember where). > > Insights in this ongoing diversity-stability debate > could be useful, because consumer-producer or > predator-prey relations can be found in many complex > systems. The SFI has an interesting site with > many links about it at http://discuss.santafe.edu/paleofoodwebs/ > for example the following: > > (a) > The diversity-stability debate > Kevin Shear McCann, Nature 405 (2000) 228-233 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/McCann2000Nature.pdf > > (b) > The long and short of food-chain length > David M. Post, Trends in Ecology & Evolution Vol.17 No.6 June (2002) 269-277 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Post2002TREE.pdf > > (c) > Stability in Real Food Webs: Weak Links in Long Loops > Anje-Margriet Neutel et al., Science 296 (2002) 1120-1123 > http://discuss.santafe.edu/files/paleofoodwebs/Neuteletal2002Science.pdf > > (a) is a nice review, (b) argues that the food-chain length is > influenced by many factors, ecosystem size and age, degree of > ecological isolation, natural resource availability, and > predator-prey interactions, and (c) says that "trophic loops", > i.e. closed food-chains, add stability to the system, esp. > the particularly long ones which contain many weak links. > They found that "loop weights" of the longer loops were low > in real systems. > > -J. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http://www.friam.org > |
I suppose that everyone has a hot button that pushes them to respond
even when such response is inappropriate or unusual. Mine is academic computer security researchers who, as a group, seem to be out of touch with the state of things in the wild. I wrote this brief introduction when I decided my comments, below, are somewhat inflammatory; yet, I wanted to get the points across to those on the list who are not knowledgeable about this subject. I need to see or hear more than the abstract before I can safely say that all the comments apply to Dr. Pucella's research. I can comfortably say that the comments apply in a more general sense to similiar research. Dan Kunkle quoted Professor Riccardo Pucella's ABSTRACT: > > Computers that execute the same program risk being vulnerable to the > same attacks. This explains why the Internet, whose machines > typically have much software in common, is so susceptible to viruses, > worms, and other forms of malware. This is true, and probably in more ways than Dr. Pucella was thinking. The genetic inheritance involved in software is an interesting field of study. > It is also a reason that > replication of servers does not necessarily enhance the availability > of a service subject to attack. This depends upon the type of attack. After the first major set of DDOS attacks on commercial services, the services turned to redundant servers spread across the geography of the Internet. A new type of server management software was required so that clients could receive subsequent web-pages and/or updates to web-pages from distributed servers. DDOS works by clogging a communication channel. Distributing the servers made sure that no attacker could clog enough communication channels to deny the availability of the service. In the case of worms, the same measure is at least partially effective depending upon the distribution of the servers and the propagation algorithm of the worm. In fact, the only way that redundant, identical servers don't help security is if one foolishly sets them up side by side on the same network pipe - in which case they are effectively the same server. > Diversity is an obvious defense. A set of replicas is diverse in so > far as all implement the same functionality but differ in their > implementation details. This is true of attacks on software infrastructure (web-servers, other services, etc). It is not true of application layer attacks. If a web-site that uses IIS on Winders is susceptible to SQL injection or cross-site scripting, the same web-site code is likely to be susceptible if run through Apache on NetBSD. Diversity is no help at the application layer, which is becoming the most popular (since it is the easiest) layer to attack. > Diverse replicas are less prone to having > vulnerabilities in common, because attacks typically depend on memory > layout and/or instruction sequence specifics. This is only true of unsophisticated buffer/heap overflow types of attacks. For poorly written malware, the simple differences between language versions of Windows will thwart these types of attacks. Unfortunately, the malware in the wild has been more sophisticated than that for several years. Nearly all new exploits, even just the Proof-of-concept types, use universal offsets and methods. Attack frameworks, such as metasploit, have taken advantage of this to separate the payload from the delivery mechanism. > But building multiple distinct versions of a program is expensive, This is not necessarily true, even for architecture and platform specific languages like C. The Debian Linux distribution is available for 11 different hardware platforms. Debian is free and supported by volunteers. Some code is platform independent. Some depends upon the software platform but is OS and hardware independent. Even code that must have different versions for different hardware is well understood and there are mechanisms to deal with this situation, ranging from simple IFDEFs in C through configure scripts. Dr. Pucella is right if one considers writing the code to the same functional requirements but with different executables. This can be very difficult. Code obfuscators try to achieve this but are frequently foiled by the sophistication of optimizing compilers. It is possible for two different source codes to compile to the same executable. > so researchers have > turned to mechanical means for creating diverse replicas via > transformations: relocation and/or padding the run-time stack by > random amounts, And the bad guys have already found means to bypass most of these mechanisms for buffer overflows; these mechanisms are useless against application layer attacks. > re-arranging basic blocks and code within basic blocks, Code obfuscation is more a defensive mechanism of malware writers and copy protection zealots than overflow protection. And it doesn't work. > and randomly changing the names of system calls or instruction > opcodes. Thereby losing any benefits of standardization such as Posix compliance and absolutely requiring multiple versions of software for the same platforms. Ergo, this will never be commercially viable. > Different classes of transformations are more or less effective in > defending against different classes of attacks. Although knowing this > correspondence is important when designing a set of defenses for a > given threat model, knowing the correspondences is not the same as > knowing the overall power of mechanically-generated diversity as a > defense. In this talk, I explore that latter, broader, issue, > investigating two complementary points: > (1) a formal characterization of what attacks cannot be blunted by > mechanically-generated diversity, and Well that's easy - any attack that doesn't depend on specific stack or heap overflows. That leaves in nearly all current attack mechanisms including most current stack and heap overflows. > (2) a rigorous comparison of mechanically-generated diversity to > type systems, another commonly advocated defense. I'm not sure whether Dr. Pucella is referring to lambda Calculus type theory, conventional data types (related but not the same thing), or mandatory access controls. Since a recent paper he wrote with Matthew Fluet discusses the data type specializations within the type system of Standard ML, I will assume the first option. My math chops are worse than Owen's, especially when it comes to lambda calculus, but my understanding of type theory is that data types are defined through this formal method, thereby providing inherit defence against overflow attacks. Put practically, the software function will not recognize that string array argument if it is more than the expected length. If the defense can be generalized beyond academic software languages, then it would work against overflows such as Aleph1 describes in his seminal "Smashing the Stack for Fun and Profit". However, that defense seems problematic against off-by-ones, heap overflows and pretty much anything that's come along since 1996. I'm afraid that the only real defense is to follow the programming practice drilled into me very early in my career. Write all software to validate any external input before using that input. The real problem with low-level attacks like buffer overflows and high-level (in the OSI ISO sense) attacks like SQL injection is they all result from failure to validate input. -- Ray Parks rcparks at sandia.gov IDART Project Lead Voice:505-844-4024 IORTA Department Fax:505-844-9641 http://www.sandia.gov/idart Pager:800-690-5288 |
All -
I'm very much with Ray on this . . . seems like too much of "If THIS were the problem, then THAT would be the solution" and maybe not enough of "Is THIS really the problem?" On that note, I'll just mention that we've experienced a collapsing of terms and/or concepts . . . people talk about "computer security" when often they mean "computer reliability." A system can be secure as all get out, and still be completely unreliable, and vice versa . . . (And, or course, I'll mumble my slogan, "Security is a feeling people might have, it's not a property a computer system can have" :-) But also, back to the original prompting email, I've just been reading a fun little book -- "Ecological Orbits - How Planets Move and Populations Grow" . . . I recommend it (although I don't necessarily agree with all of it). The authors (Lev Ginzburg and Mark Colyvan) are pushing for a transition beyond the Lotka-Volterra regime of population modeling (their current fave is something they refer to as "maternal effects"). They argue that it's time for a "Newtonion revolution" in population modeling, largely in the sense that they think we should start using second order difference / differential systems in our (analytic) models. For example, classical Lotka Volterra, while nonlinear (with "quadratic" terms) is still a first order system. They argue that we should be looking more at the second derivative of population (i.e., rate of change of population growth rate) . . . Anyway, it's a fun, quick read . . . tom On Nov 9, 2005, at 3:47 PM, Raymond Parks wrote: > I suppose that everyone has a hot button that pushes them to > respond > even when such response is inappropriate or unusual. Mine is academic > computer security researchers who, as a group, seem to be out of touch > with the state of things in the wild. |
Tom Carter wrote: > But also, back to the original prompting email, I've just been > reading a fun little book -- "Ecological Orbits - How Planets Move > and Populations Grow" . . . I recommend it (although I don't > necessarily agree with all of it). The authors (Lev Ginzburg and > Mark Colyvan) are pushing for a transition beyond the Lotka-Volterra > regime of population modeling (their current fave is something they > refer to as "maternal effects"). They argue that it's time for a > "Newtonion revolution" in population modeling, largely in the sense > that they think we should start using second order difference / > differential systems in our (analytic) models. For example, > classical Lotka Volterra, while nonlinear (with "quadratic" terms) is > still a first order system. They argue that we should be looking > more at the second derivative of population (i.e., rate of change of > population growth rate) . . . That's somewhat similar to Neo Martinez' messages about stability in food webs. First, as pointed out earlier, that empirical food webs aren't the random webs that May looked at. And second, on the nonlinear issue, that the predator functional responses to prey densities aren't linear. Even a protist filter feeder can alter it's catch rate considerably by simply swimming faster when there are more prey about to catch. -- rec -- |
In reply to this post by Tom Carter
On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 09:04:06AM -0800, Tom Carter wrote:
> > But also, back to the original prompting email, I've just been > reading a fun little book -- "Ecological Orbits - How Planets Move > and Populations Grow" . . . I recommend it (although I don't > necessarily agree with all of it). The authors (Lev Ginzburg and > Mark Colyvan) are pushing for a transition beyond the Lotka-Volterra > regime of population modeling (their current fave is something they > refer to as "maternal effects"). They argue that it's time for a > "Newtonion revolution" in population modeling, largely in the sense > that they think we should start using second order difference / > differential systems in our (analytic) models. For example, > classical Lotka Volterra, while nonlinear (with "quadratic" terms) is > still a first order system. They argue that we should be looking > more at the second derivative of population (i.e., rate of change of > population growth rate) . . . > > Anyway, it's a fun, quick read . . . > > tom But any second order differential equation is just a 1st order differential equation in a higher dimension. If Ginzburg and Colyvan are really arguing for an increase in the order of differential equation, then they're arguing for a case of fetid dingoes kidneys. OTOH, of course there are extensions to LV that need to be followed up - the functional response terms Roger mentions in the next post - as well as a hell of a lot about LV we don't know about. Cheers -- *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you may safely ignore this attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) Mathematics 0425 253119 (") UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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