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Choroquine-phosphate Death

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Steve Smith

Choroquine-phosphate Death

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All
the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine
phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

If he selects his favorites to be at the front of the line for his compassionate care that should help one way the other. He knows that the way to evaluate drug effectiveness is by feel and belief.

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 9:42 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!
>
> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus
>
> But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
> or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
> triggered these people to give it a whirl.
>
> I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
> for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums. All
> the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
> for example. There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
> around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
> honest-dosage and well-regulated. I didn't know of chloroquine
> phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
> mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
> contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
> something toxic to humans.
>
> I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
> contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
> He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
> "silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
> (life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
> prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
> spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
> China?) abruptly for our own use.
>
> I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
> world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
> cannot get their usual refills. Doh!
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Barry MacKichan

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All
the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine
phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Prof David West

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.
—Barry
On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:
My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All
the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine
phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

The preprint that Barry passed along points out that there are many drugs that vulnerable people are already taking that have off-target effects, and that it could be useful to tabulate that clinical data to see if it explains recovery rates.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 at 7:57 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Yes, it does. Information has context ... otherwise we wouldn't call it "information". And if your audience takes your message to mean "Hey, eat some aquarium disinfectant!", then your message was wrongly formulated, if not entirely wrong.

I'm not one to claim that the *entire* burden of clear communication lands on the sender. The receiver bears burden, too. But if you already *know* that those who receive your message will misinterpret it, then you the burden becomes asymmetric. This is why responsible people say things like "Self-medicating will only cause more damage." And "The last thing that we want right now is to inundate our emergency departments with patients who believe they found a vague and risky solution that could potentially jeopardize their health."

On 3/24/20 7:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

That sounds like a task for statistical causal reasoning. Remember, correlation is not causation unless you use those methods.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 9:00 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

The preprint that Barry passed along points out that there are many drugs that vulnerable people are already taking that have off-target effects, and that it could be useful to tabulate that clinical data to see if it explains recovery rates.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Prof David West <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 at 7:57 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Prof David West

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest. He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use... but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

The unintended consequences of his mass-tweet/news-conference/rally announcements are sweeping. I do not believe he *intended* to cause a slam on the chloroquine supply chain, nor for self-described self-reliant folks like the AZ couple to run out and make a small/obvious but terminal mistake.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

The behavior puts in sharp relief how empty it is to “Give people hope.”

It is good in this circumstance to have people at home sobbing under their pillow.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 at 8:27 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest. He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use... but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Mikegolf

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I don’t if Professor Raoult is right or not, but, for him, the word « idiot » is inappropriate, you might use “character » or “unusual” or “bizarre”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult#Citations

Amicalement

Michel Bloch

http://mountvernon.fr/

06 80 57 3398

De : Friam <[hidden email]> De la part de Steven A Smith
Envoyé : mardi 24 mars 2020 16:27
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest. He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use... but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:
Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.
—Barry
On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:
My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All
the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine
phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

I thought he was referring to Trump. Am I missing something?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 10:09 AM Michel Bloch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t if Professor Raoult is right or not, but, for him, the word « idiot » is inappropriate, you might use “character » or “unusual” or “bizarre”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult#Citations

Amicalement
Michel Bloch
http://mountvernon.fr/
06 80 57 3398

De : Friam <[hidden email]> De la part de Steven A Smith
Envoyé : mardi 24 mars 2020 16:27
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:
France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest.   He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use...   but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.
There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).
The unintended consequences of his mass-tweet/news-conference/rally announcements are sweeping. I do not believe he *intended* to cause a slam on the chloroquine supply chain, nor for self-described self-reliant folks like the AZ couple to run out and make a small/obvious but terminal mistake.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:
Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.
—Barry
On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:
My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45
or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what
triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known
for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All
the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox
for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community
around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and
honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine
phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they
mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not
contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with
something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who
contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.
He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's
"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around
(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this
prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could
spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from
China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first
world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many
cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

I think some people are getting in the habit of using "he" to mean "The Idiot" to avoid 1) NSA keyword searches and 2) to generally to avoid recognizing his brand.

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 10:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

I thought he was referring to Trump. Am I missing something?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 10:09 AM Michel Bloch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t if Professor Raoult is right or not, but, for him, the word « idiot » is inappropriate, you might use “character » or “unusual” or “bizarre”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult#Citations

Amicalement

Michel Bloch

http://mountvernon.fr/

06 80 57 3398

De : Friam <[hidden email]> De la part de Steven A Smith
Envoyé : mardi 24 mars 2020 16:27
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest.   He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use...   but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

The unintended consequences of his mass-tweet/news-conference/rally announcements are sweeping. I do not believe he *intended* to cause a slam on the chloroquine supply chain, nor for self-described self-reliant folks like the AZ couple to run out and make a small/obvious but terminal mistake.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Mikegolf

Michel -

I only had a brief moment to check out your groups webpages (the Google Translate English version is surprisingly good for such a technical document). The Complexity Timeline page was particularly apt as I have tried to recover that from my own experiences/memory and that of others.

How are things looking for you there on the ground in France? I've been checking in with my social/professional network in UK/EU/AU but France's central location in Europe and unique cultural style would seem to suggest an equally unique experience/perspective?

- Steve

On 3/24/20 10:09 AM, Michel Bloch wrote:

I don’t if Professor Raoult is right or not, but, for him, the word « idiot » is inappropriate, you might use “character » or “unusual” or “bizarre”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult#Citations

Amicalement

Michel Bloch

http://mountvernon.fr/

06 80 57 3398

De : Friam [hidden email] De la part de Steven A Smith
Envoyé : mardi 24 mars 2020 16:27
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest.   He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use...   but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

The unintended consequences of his mass-tweet/news-conference/rally announcements are sweeping. I do not believe he *intended* to cause a slam on the chloroquine supply chain, nor for self-described self-reliant folks like the AZ couple to run out and make a small/obvious but terminal mistake.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: Choroquine-phosphate Death

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

personally it is about not adding anymore oxygen to his corrupt flame

"he who shall not be named"

"orange swirl"

"45"

POTUS (reflect the office, not the person, except circumstantially)

On 3/24/20 10:16 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think some people are getting in the habit of using "he" to mean "The Idiot" to avoid 1) NSA keyword searches and 2) to generally to avoid recognizing his brand.

Marcus

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Frank Wimberly [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 10:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

I thought he was referring to Trump. Am I missing something?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 10:09 AM Michel Bloch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t if Professor Raoult is right or not, but, for him, the word « idiot » is inappropriate, you might use “character » or “unusual” or “bizarre”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult#Citations

Amicalement

Michel Bloch

http://mountvernon.fr/

06 80 57 3398

De : Friam <[hidden email]> De la part de Steven A Smith
Envoyé : mardi 24 mars 2020 16:27
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [FRIAM] Choroquine-phosphate Death

On 3/24/20 8:56 AM, Prof David West wrote:

France is pushing chloroquine hard. A FriAMer has relatives there.

Just because the first person that told people about this was an idiot does not make the information wrong.

He was far from the first, just the loudest/brashest.   He *would* have us believe that he personally *discovered* this off-label use...   but that IS how he rolls.. no surprises.

There is a presumed responsibility when you have a megaphone. But that is one of the broken norms for worse (and better).

The unintended consequences of his mass-tweet/news-conference/rally announcements are sweeping. I do not believe he *intended* to cause a slam on the chloroquine supply chain, nor for self-described self-reliant folks like the AZ couple to run out and make a small/obvious but terminal mistake.

davew

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

Elon Musk had a serious brush with malaria about 20 years ago, and is evidently one of the insistent sources pushing for chloroquine. Sorry, I don’t have references.

—Barry

On 24 Mar 2020, at 0:42, Steven A Smith wrote:

My first reaction to this was: THANK YOU DEAR LEADER!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

But, I don't know if we can attribute this kind of accident to POTUS45

or not... my gut instinct is that his constant raving about it is what

triggered these people to give it a whirl.

I have one toe in the survivalist/prepper community and they are known

for aquiring and stockpiling antibiotics sold for fish/aquariums.   All

the major human antibiotics have fish equivalents FishMox and FishFlox

for example.   There is much discussion/lore/wisdom in that community

around which products/sources are actually pharmaceutical-grade and

honest-dosage and well-regulated.   I didn't know of chloroquine

phosphate or it's use... they are saying "cleaning" but I think they

mean disinfecting. It sounds to me that the problem was dosage, not

contamination, but the product they used may have been cut or mixed with

something toxic to humans.

I've a friend who lived in Ghana for years with Peace Corps who

contracted malaria and was medicated with one of the chloroquine drugs.

He understood then (25 years ago) that it was the third world's

"silver-bullet" and in his case it turned his symptoms around

(life-threatening) in hours (on an IV).... his response to this

prescription-from-POTUS is that the death rate in the third world could

spike if the first world diverts their supply (probably coming from

China?) abruptly for our own use.

I also heard that patients depending on these chloroquines in the first

world are already finding that the supplies are drying up and many

cannot get their usual refills.   Doh!

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

FWIW -

This just in from my daughter, molecularBio/Virologist at OHSU on the topic of antivirals and vaccines and human samples for immune profiling:

Also, this concept of targeting the host rather than the virus for antiviral development is not a new one, has lots of complications, and is something that people have been trying to do for years with limited success. However, there are lots of good virologists on here (many flavivirologists!), and I do have some hope that something good might come from it. The press coverage of this work makes me feel a little uncomfortable--not that he's being opportunistic or dishonest necessarily but when the University PR office gets involved, there's almost always some spin/exaggeration. I will say (I don't know if you've seen the interviews with Nevan) that I am enjoying his increased fondness for eccentric suit jackets.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on conference calls partly because no one has anything else to do, but also because everyone's doing their very best to get involved with Covid research, I think mostly with good intentions. We will be setting up some vaccine development, which is extremely unlikely to have any benefit for the current epidemic (although who knows? the current estimate of how long we will be fighting this keeps lengthening), and I will also be filling in in a colleague's lab who is collecting and banking Covid19+ human samples for immune profiling--gotta go get fit tested for an N95 mask today. I'm not particularly worried about it but I have lots of people worrying for me, so then I wonder if I should be worried...

One interesting thing I heard in the endless conference calls yesterday was that they have tried an anti-CCR5 antibody in some compassionate use cases with enough success that they are going to try in more people. The hypothesized activity is that it prevents 'cytokine storm' (basically very high levels of inflammation that are responsible for most of the damage that happens at the end stages). The good thing about this approach is that there are many antibody treatments that would presumably do the same thing, so there are lots of avenues to explore if this turns out to really work.

I've been relying mostly on TWIV for keeping up with the current research because there's a ton out there, and it's good to have someone smart sift through it for me.

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

Alrighty, let's return attention to those genetically-engineered babies!

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

FWIW -

This just in from my daughter, molecularBio/Virologist at OHSU on the topic of antivirals and vaccines and human samples for immune profiling:

Also, this concept of targeting the host rather than the virus for antiviral development is not a new one, has lots of complications, and is something that people have been trying to do for years with limited success. However, there are lots of good virologists on here (many flavivirologists!), and I do have some hope that something good might come from it. The press coverage of this work makes me feel a little uncomfortable--not that he's being opportunistic or dishonest necessarily but when the University PR office gets involved, there's almost always some spin/exaggeration. I will say (I don't know if you've seen the interviews with Nevan) that I am enjoying his increased fondness for eccentric suit jackets.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on conference calls partly because no one has anything else to do, but also because everyone's doing their very best to get involved with Covid research, I think mostly with good intentions. We will be setting up some vaccine development, which is extremely unlikely to have any benefit for the current epidemic (although who knows? the current estimate of how long we will be fighting this keeps lengthening), and I will also be filling in in a colleague's lab who is collecting and banking Covid19+ human samples for immune profiling--gotta go get fit tested for an N95 mask today. I'm not particularly worried about it but I have lots of people worrying for me, so then I wonder if I should be worried...

One interesting thing I heard in the endless conference calls yesterday was that they have tried an anti-CCR5 antibody in some compassionate use cases with enough success that they are going to try in more people. The hypothesized activity is that it prevents 'cytokine storm' (basically very high levels of inflammation that are responsible for most of the damage that happens at the end stages). The good thing about this approach is that there are many antibody treatments that would presumably do the same thing, so there are lots of avenues to explore if this turns out to really work.

I've been relying mostly on TWIV for keeping up with the current research because there's a ton out there, and it's good to have someone smart sift through it for me.

Steve Smith

Re: Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

Marcus -

It took me a few takes to get the implication/import of your response... let me reframe:

This just in from a younger (40) colleague I've known for decades whose biases and understandings I think I understand well:

To add context for why I was puzzled by your response, she did just have a baby (a year ago) and when CRISPR hit the deck (decade ago now?) her first whimsical response was to say she wanted to splice back in the genes for prehensile tails for humans (and she hadn't even seen Cats on broadway, and long before the bad movie version where digitally rendered tails were the main star)...

So I thought somehow you knew all this and was calling *that* out. I don't think her son has a tail... or at least they keep it well tucked when I visit.

Back to playing "whack-a-mole" with the myriad consequences of this pandemic!

Carry on,

- Steve

Alrighty, let's return attention to those genetically-engineered babies!

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Steven A Smith [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email] [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

FWIW -

This just in from my daughter, molecularBio/Virologist at OHSU on the topic of antivirals and vaccines and human samples for immune profiling:

Also, this concept of targeting the host rather than the virus for antiviral development is not a new one, has lots of complications, and is something that people have been trying to do for years with limited success. However, there are lots of good virologists on here (many flavivirologists!), and I do have some hope that something good might come from it. The press coverage of this work makes me feel a little uncomfortable--not that he's being opportunistic or dishonest necessarily but when the University PR office gets involved, there's almost always some spin/exaggeration. I will say (I don't know if you've seen the interviews with Nevan) that I am enjoying his increased fondness for eccentric suit jackets.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on conference calls partly because no one has anything else to do, but also because everyone's doing their very best to get involved with Covid research, I think mostly with good intentions. We will be setting up some vaccine development, which is extremely unlikely to have any benefit for the current epidemic (although who knows? the current estimate of how long we will be fighting this keeps lengthening), and I will also be filling in in a colleague's lab who is collecting and banking Covid19+ human samples for immune profiling--gotta go get fit tested for an N95 mask today. I'm not particularly worried about it but I have lots of people worrying for me, so then I wonder if I should be worried...

One interesting thing I heard in the endless conference calls yesterday was that they have tried an anti-CCR5 antibody in some compassionate use cases with enough success that they are going to try in more people. The hypothesized activity is that it prevents 'cytokine storm' (basically very high levels of inflammation that are responsible for most of the damage that happens at the end stages). The good thing about this approach is that there are many antibody treatments that would presumably do the same thing, so there are lots of avenues to explore if this turns out to really work.

I've been relying mostly on TWIV for keeping up with the current research because there's a ton out there, and it's good to have someone smart sift through it for me.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

I was just being (a little) absurd. But I’ve always thought the best chance for a fix for HIV, especially, is to change the rules of the game out from under the virus. I think people are a little nutty when it comes to genetic engineering. There is no spoon!

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 11:28 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

Marcus -

It took me a few takes to get the implication/import of your response... let me reframe:

This just in from a younger (40) colleague I've known for decades whose biases and understandings I think I understand well:

So I thought somehow you knew all this and was calling *that* out. I don't think her son has a tail... or at least they keep it well tucked when I visit.

Back to playing "whack-a-mole" with the myriad consequences of this pandemic!

Carry on,

- Steve

Alrighty, let's return attention to those genetically-engineered babies!

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Steven A Smith [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 12:16 PM
To: [hidden email] [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Antiviral and Vaccine development and immune profiling from one of many insiders in the fray..

FWIW -

This just in from my daughter, molecularBio/Virologist at OHSU on the topic of antivirals and vaccines and human samples for immune profiling:

Also, this concept of targeting the host rather than the virus for antiviral development is not a new one, has lots of complications, and is something that people have been trying to do for years with limited success. However, there are lots of good virologists on here (many flavivirologists!), and I do have some hope that something good might come from it. The press coverage of this work makes me feel a little uncomfortable--not that he's being opportunistic or dishonest necessarily but when the University PR office gets involved, there's almost always some spin/exaggeration. I will say (I don't know if you've seen the interviews with Nevan) that I am enjoying his increased fondness for eccentric suit jackets.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on conference calls partly because no one has anything else to do, but also because everyone's doing their very best to get involved with Covid research, I think mostly with good intentions. We will be setting up some vaccine development, which is extremely unlikely to have any benefit for the current epidemic (although who knows? the current estimate of how long we will be fighting this keeps lengthening), and I will also be filling in in a colleague's lab who is collecting and banking Covid19+ human samples for immune profiling--gotta go get fit tested for an N95 mask today. I'm not particularly worried about it but I have lots of people worrying for me, so then I wonder if I should be worried...

One interesting thing I heard in the endless conference calls yesterday was that they have tried an anti-CCR5 antibody in some compassionate use cases with enough success that they are going to try in more people. The hypothesized activity is that it prevents 'cytokine storm' (basically very high levels of inflammation that are responsible for most of the damage that happens at the end stages). The good thing about this approach is that there are many antibody treatments that would presumably do the same thing, so there are lots of avenues to explore if this turns out to really work.

I've been relying mostly on TWIV for keeping up with the current research because there's a ton out there, and it's good to have someone smart sift through it for me.
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