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Buzz arrives

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Robert Holmes

Buzz arrives

So Google continue in their quest to take over the multiverse. Anyone tried Buzz, their Facebook & Twitter replacement?

-- R

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Buzz arrives

Administrator

> On Feb 10, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:
>
>> So Google continue in their quest to take over the multiverse.
>> Anyone tried Buzz, their Facebook & Twitter replacement?

I wish I could make sense out of the Google Ecology. I certainly have
tried! It seems a hodgepodge of everything, with very little
distinction amongst the parts.

Just one example is that they do not have a single-sign-in. You often
can use your gmail account, which I don't want but have to have, but
other of the services have not yet integrated into the Blob.

They seem great for developers: Google App Engine and all that. Yet
they do seem to go hot/cold on their support on GAE for their core
languages. They started out with a Django (python) template engine.
Then they added Java. But not Javascript, other than via Rhino, the
Java implementation and part of the current Java release.

The API to their Calendar service is a nightmare (we're trying to
integrate it into the new sfx website) .. they decided to not do their
own but simply use part of the Zend (php) core which is a huge mess.
Why? Php is not one of their languages (Java, C/C++, Javascript,
Python). I like their not using PHP but they could easily have
provided a simple REST solution. They didn't (and no, I don't mean
iFrames, I want the data. Heck, JSON would be fine.)

Then the Wave hit. Isn't it Buzzy? How's it differ from other
offerings. Are their APIs so developers can hot rod it? Hows it fit
into the rest of their stuff.

And there already is Google Groups, a weird mashup of mail-list, with
pages and media upload. But no really effective spam control. And
they own Postini, for heaven sakes! Why don't they plug them together?

Then there's Domains and Google Apps. And no, that's not Docs, its an
attempt to let businesses have traditional web hosting but with the
advantages of the rest of the Blob .. er .. Ecology. Thus far non of
us have figured out how to use it.

And android, WTF? Its a phone, no its a web-book, no its a real OS,
no its for a future gawd-knows-what device like the iPad. I don't get
it!

This mess should not be surprising. After all, they have only one
product: advertising.

But, man, I'd like to have at least a HINT of where they're going.
Are they simply interesting islands of capabilities, not meant to be
integrated? Or is there an underlying plan of some sort? Or is it
simply a shot gun beta machine with us being the dopes who separate
out the good ideas from the bad!?

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Buzz arrives

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:

So Google continue in their quest to take over the multiverse. Anyone tried Buzz, their Facebook & Twitter replacement?

But, man, I'd like to have at least a HINT of where they're going.
-- Owen

They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying all of those delicious golden eggs?

--Doug

Owen Densmore

Re: Buzz arrives

Administrator

On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
> them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing
> into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps
> laying all of those delicious golden eggs?

And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
As far as I can see its near-random.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Buzz arrives

Administrator

BTW: This was suggested by /.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10449662-265.html
Fairly detailed, in terms of place in the social media world.

-- Owen

On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

> On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
>> them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep
>> stuffing into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that
>> keeps laying all of those delicious golden eggs?
>
> And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> As far as I can see its near-random.
>
> -- Owen

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

All I can say is that it (the apparent random approach to producing products and product support) is working, and I wish I had bought goog at its IPO.

I'm serious too: you're complaining that you can't figure out Google's business plan, and I'm complaining that their business plan (whatever it is) has been so successful that the company is wallowing in money, none of which I got. Not only has Google been hugely successful with their business plan (whatever it is), they have that other behemoth money factory, M$, running scared.

I'm not going to pretend to be able to describe, justify, dissect, or pontificate upon Goog's business plan, other than to observe that it has been hugely successful.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying all of those delicious golden eggs?

And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious. As far as I can see its near-random.

-- Owen

Steve Smith

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

I am fully convinced that there is a method to their madness. But I
also believe that it would take an astute insider in Silicon Valley to
fully suss out what that is. I'm sure there will be a "tell all" book
about this Google Era. My last visit to Google was about 4 years ago
(early Google Earth) and they were (for better and worse) *all over the
place*.

I too am frustrated that their "ecology" is so loosely
defined/coordinated. Things work way better than one might wish but
they obviously are willing to leave a lot of ragged edges in favor of
lots of new services/apps/ideas.
>
>> They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
>> them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing
>> into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying
>> all of those delicious golden eggs?
>
> And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> As far as I can see its near-random.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

We might as well throw this into the mix:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/35332437

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

BTW: This was suggested by /.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10449662-265.html
Fairly detailed, in terms of place in the social media world.

-- Owen

On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying all of those delicious golden eggs?

And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious. As far as I can see its near-random.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Owen Densmore

Re: Buzz arrives

Administrator

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

No. I've figured out their business plan: Advertisement. They agree
and are very public about it.

Its their "architecture" I don't get.

Here's a good post to the earlier /. suggested read. Note the third
paragraph about tying it together. Yes, I'd love a "desktop in the
sky" usable on everything in my digital kit bag (TV, phone, computer,
iPad, ...) but so far Google isn't even close in terms of coherence.

<quote>
The innovation comes in how this all ties together. Google Mail + Buzz
+ Wave + Contacts (Yes contacts is its own thing.) Voice + Talk + Maps
+ Chat + Calendar + (Maybe docs, it still blows though) + Search = One
hell of a system of tools to organize and manage how you do "stuff"

And when you start integrating that into phones, netbooks (Think
Chrome OS) + your traditional web browser you can do some pretty cool
stuff.

> However right now Google's biggest challenge is tying all this stuff
> together. Calendar + Groups? Maps + Gmail? Buzz + Calendar? Not even
> remotely tied together.

Lets be blunt here. The above Facebook has nothing like this. MS
doesn't either. Google is creating a virtual desktop. That is all
there is to it.
</quote>

-- Owen

On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> All I can say is that it (the apparent random approach to producing
> products and product support) is working, and I wish I had bought
> goog at its IPO.
>
> I'm serious too: you're complaining that you can't figure out
> Google's business plan, and I'm complaining that their business plan
> (whatever it is) has been so successful that the company is
> wallowing in money, none of which I got. Not only has Google been
> hugely successful with their business plan (whatever it is), they
> have that other behemoth money factory, M$, running scared.
>
> I'm not going to pretend to be able to describe, justify, dissect,
> or pontificate upon Goog's business plan, other than to observe that
> it has been hugely successful.
>
> --Doug
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
> They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
> them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing
> into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps
> laying all of those delicious golden eggs?
>
> And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> As far as I can see its near-random.
>
>
> -- Owen

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Buzz arrives

Disagree -- their (hugely successful) advertising platform is built upon and relies on their "architecture" to achieve the monstrous circulation it receives. The two aspects of their business plan are intertwined and cannot be separated if True Google Enlightenment is to be achieved.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

No. I've figured out their business plan: Advertisement. They agree and are very public about it.

Its their "architecture" I don't get.

Here's a good post to the earlier /. suggested read. Note the third paragraph about tying it together. Yes, I'd love a "desktop in the sky" usable on everything in my digital kit bag (TV, phone, computer, iPad, ...) but so far Google isn't even close in terms of coherence.

<quote>
The innovation comes in how this all ties together. Google Mail + Buzz + Wave + Contacts (Yes contacts is its own thing.) Voice + Talk + Maps + Chat + Calendar + (Maybe docs, it still blows though) + Search = One hell of a system of tools to organize and manage how you do "stuff"

And when you start integrating that into phones, netbooks (Think Chrome OS) + your traditional web browser you can do some pretty cool stuff.

However right now Google's biggest challenge is tying all this stuff together. Calendar + Groups? Maps + Gmail? Buzz + Calendar? Not even remotely tied together.

Lets be blunt here. The above Facebook has nothing like this. MS doesn't either. Google is creating a virtual desktop. That is all there is to it.
</quote>

-- Owen

On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

All I can say is that it (the apparent random approach to producing products and product support) is working, and I wish I had bought goog at its IPO.

I'm serious too: you're complaining that you can't figure out Google's business plan, and I'm complaining that their business plan (whatever it is) has been so successful that the company is wallowing in money, none of which I got. Not only has Google been hugely successful with their business plan (whatever it is), they have that other behemoth money factory, M$, running scared.

I'm not going to pretend to be able to describe, justify, dissect, or pontificate upon Goog's business plan, other than to observe that it has been hugely successful.

--Doug

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying all of those delicious golden eggs?

And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious. As far as I can see its near-random.

-- Owen

Nick Thompson

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

Is it possible that the ecology is evolutionary ... just a bunch of pigeons
pounding away at keys. And everytime anybody outsides Googleinvents anew
app, Google just opens up a new room full of pigeons?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 11:55:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> I am fully convinced that there is a method to their madness. But I
> also believe that it would take an astute insider in Silicon Valley to
> fully suss out what that is. I'm sure there will be a "tell all" book
> about this Google Era. My last visit to Google was about 4 years ago
> (early Google Earth) and they were (for better and worse) *all over the
> place*.
>
> I too am frustrated that their "ecology" is so loosely
> defined/coordinated. Things work way better than one might wish but
> they obviously are willing to leave a lot of ragged edges in favor of
> lots of new services/apps/ideas.
> >
> >> They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
> >> them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing
> >> into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps laying
> >> all of those delicious golden eggs?
> >
> > And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> > As far as I can see its near-random.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Thus spake Steve Smith circa 10-02-10 10:54 AM:
>> And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
>> As far as I can see its near-random.

I thought we would have learned from biology that successful strategies
involve a large sampling of the possibilities. So, it's not the
seemingly random sampling Google's doing that befuddles me. That seems
totally rational, even if it is random. What confuses me is why humans
insist that various processes (from biological pathways to organisms to
corporations) always must have some single teleologically constricted
purpose. Why does everything always have to boil down to some
pigeon-holed agenda? Why do we have to divine THE cause, THE goal, THE
motivation? Why can't it be complex?

And I'm serious, here, too. I can't tell you how often I get completely
baffled looks when I describe what Tempus Dictum does. Those linear
thinkers who seem to dominate investment forums immediately write me off
and stress that if a business doesn't FOCUS, it will surely fail. I
make some attempts to describe breadth-first search and the surprising
efficacy of large variance sampling; but I always fail in that
description. [grin]

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

Owen, Doug

I have a GREAT idea! Why don't we write and offer to help them with their
... um .....problem.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

> [Original Message]
> From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 12:03:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> No. I've figured out their business plan: Advertisement. They agree
> and are very public about it.
>
> Its their "architecture" I don't get.
>
> Here's a good post to the earlier /. suggested read. Note the third
> paragraph about tying it together. Yes, I'd love a "desktop in the
> sky" usable on everything in my digital kit bag (TV, phone, computer,
> iPad, ...) but so far Google isn't even close in terms of coherence.
>
> <quote>
> The innovation comes in how this all ties together. Google Mail + Buzz
> + Wave + Contacts (Yes contacts is its own thing.) Voice + Talk + Maps
> + Chat + Calendar + (Maybe docs, it still blows though) + Search = One
> hell of a system of tools to organize and manage how you do "stuff"
>
> And when you start integrating that into phones, netbooks (Think
> Chrome OS) + your traditional web browser you can do some pretty cool
> stuff.
>
> > However right now Google's biggest challenge is tying all this stuff
> > together. Calendar + Groups? Maps + Gmail? Buzz + Calendar? Not even
> > remotely tied together.
>
> Lets be blunt here. The above Facebook has nothing like this. MS
> doesn't either. Google is creating a virtual desktop. That is all
> there is to it.
> </quote>
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
> > All I can say is that it (the apparent random approach to producing
> > products and product support) is working, and I wish I had bought
> > goog at its IPO.
> >
> > I'm serious too: you're complaining that you can't figure out
> > Google's business plan, and I'm complaining that their business plan
> > (whatever it is) has been so successful that the company is
> > wallowing in money, none of which I got. Not only has Google been
> > hugely successful with their business plan (whatever it is), they
> > have that other behemoth money factory, M$, running scared.
> >
> > I'm not going to pretend to be able to describe, justify, dissect,
> > or pontificate upon Goog's business plan, other than to observe that
> > it has been hugely successful.
> >
> > --Doug
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Owen Densmore
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Feb 10, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> >
> > They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken
> > them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing
> > into their overflowing coffers. Why kill the goose that keeps
> > laying all of those delicious golden eggs?
> >
> > And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> > As far as I can see its near-random.
> >
> >
> > -- Owen
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

Glen,

Because that's how evolution works? Development constrains the exploration
space of evolution, and evolution would not be so sucessful if it did not.
Epigenesis, man. Epigenesis.

(};-]) (winking guy with big eyebrows and a smug smile)

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

> [Original Message]
> From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 12:10:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> Thus spake Steve Smith circa 10-02-10 10:54 AM:
> >> And that is? Can you describe "that very same road"? I'm serious.
> >> As far as I can see its near-random.
>
> I thought we would have learned from biology that successful strategies
> involve a large sampling of the possibilities. So, it's not the
> seemingly random sampling Google's doing that befuddles me. That seems
> totally rational, even if it is random. What confuses me is why humans
> insist that various processes (from biological pathways to organisms to
> corporations) always must have some single teleologically constricted
> purpose. Why does everything always have to boil down to some
> pigeon-holed agenda? Why do we have to divine THE cause, THE goal, THE
> motivation? Why can't it be complex?
>
> And I'm serious, here, too. I can't tell you how often I get completely
> baffled looks when I describe what Tempus Dictum does. Those linear
> thinkers who seem to dominate investment forums immediately write me off
> and stress that if a business doesn't FOCUS, it will surely fail. I
> make some attempts to describe breadth-first search and the surprising
> efficacy of large variance sampling; but I always fail in that
> description. [grin]
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

glen e. p. ropella-2

Re: Buzz arrives

Thus spake Nicholas Thompson circa 10-02-10 11:29 AM:
> Because that's how evolution works? Development constrains the exploration
> space of evolution, and evolution would not be so sucessful if it did not.
> Epigenesis, man. Epigenesis.

I'm not so sure that's true. It seems to my ignorant eye that evolution
is open ended. I.e., while it's true that history applies pressure to
shape the space to be sampled, it's not true that a) the size of the
space decreases monotonically nor b) constraints need persist from one
instant to the next. Any general cone of decreasing radius through time
is, I suspect, a figment of our imagination.

Rather, what happens is a high dimensional and very dynamic sequence of
soft constraints chunking forward in time like large set of interwoven
space-filling curves. At any given point, the options available to the
process are constrained (softly, i.e. the process _might_ choose to
violate the constraint in very rare cases), but at the next point, the
constraints are (can be) very different.

In business, the symptom of applying this convenient fiction is that
entrepreneurs create some arbitrary, pull-it-out-of-the-air agenda,
plan, strategy, etc. and then when they actually start doing something
productive, that fiction is ignored or constantly rewritten to placate
the investors. The worst part about it is that everyone _knows_ the
plan is mostly bullsh*t, overly concretized from a necessarily abstract
kernel. But as long as the rhetoric appeals to a majority of people
involved, it's comforting I suppose. Perhaps sociologically and
psychologically, the convenient fiction has some necessary effect on
those involved? Perhaps everyone would get depressed and shoot
themselves in the head or watch TV all day eating oreos if there were no
"plan"? I don't know. Color me fuddled.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

I agree with Glen, I think, the "all over the place" is the "plan".

And it's the same plan that Microsoft tried and failed to execute because, as the blogs have been noting this week, Microsoft let a thousand flowers bloom, and then set them to trial by combat, with the result that the most vicious managers won.

-- rec --

Eric Charles

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,
You do know that actually is part of Google's official strategy right? They issued a press release several years ago with some of the details:

http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

Eric

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 02:09 PM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is it possible that the ecology is evolutionary ... just a bunch of pigeons
pounding away at keys.  And everytime anybody  outsides Googleinvents anew
app, Google just opens up a new room full of pigeons?  

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]




> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 11:55:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> I am fully convinced that there is a method to their madness.   But I 
> also believe that it would take an astute insider in Silicon Valley to 
> fully suss out what that is.   I'm sure there will be a "tell
all" book 
> about this Google Era.  My last visit to Google was about 4 years ago 
> (early Google Earth) and they were (for better and
worse) *all over the 
> place*.
>
> I too am frustrated that their "ecology" is so loosely 
> defined/coordinated.   Things work way better than one might wish but 
> they obviously are willing to leave a lot of ragged edges in favor of 
> lots of new services/apps/ideas.
> >
> > They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken 
> > them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing 
> > into their overflowing coffers.  Why kill the goose that keeps laying 
> > all of those delicious golden eggs?
> >
> > And that is?  Can you describe "that very same road"?  I'm
serious.  
> > As far as I can see its near-random.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Nick Thompson

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

Glen,

Oh, I think you are absolutely right about business.

I just thought you had a bit over done it on evolution...

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

> [Original Message]
> From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 12:56:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> Thus spake Nicholas Thompson circa 10-02-10 11:29 AM:
> > Because that's how evolution works? Development constrains the
exploration
> > space of evolution, and evolution would not be so sucessful if it did
not.

> > Epigenesis, man. Epigenesis.
>
> I'm not so sure that's true. It seems to my ignorant eye that evolution
> is open ended. I.e., while it's true that history applies pressure to
> shape the space to be sampled, it's not true that a) the size of the
> space decreases monotonically nor b) constraints need persist from one
> instant to the next. Any general cone of decreasing radius through time
> is, I suspect, a figment of our imagination.
>
> Rather, what happens is a high dimensional and very dynamic sequence of
> soft constraints chunking forward in time like large set of interwoven
> space-filling curves. At any given point, the options available to the
> process are constrained (softly, i.e. the process _might_ choose to
> violate the constraint in very rare cases), but at the next point, the
> constraints are (can be) very different.
>
> In business, the symptom of applying this convenient fiction is that
> entrepreneurs create some arbitrary, pull-it-out-of-the-air agenda,
> plan, strategy, etc. and then when they actually start doing something
> productive, that fiction is ignored or constantly rewritten to placate
> the investors. The worst part about it is that everyone _knows_ the
> plan is mostly bullsh*t, overly concretized from a necessarily abstract
> kernel. But as long as the rhetoric appeals to a majority of people
> involved, it's comforting I suppose. Perhaps sociologically and
> psychologically, the convenient fiction has some necessary effect on
> those involved? Perhaps everyone would get depressed and shoot
> themselves in the head or watch TV all day eating oreos if there were no
> "plan"? I don't know. Color me fuddled.
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: Buzz arrives

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes

Man! You know, I almost believed it!

How many people on this list know that, during the WWII, Skinner worked on a top secret project that employed pigeons trained on aerial photographs as the guidance mechanism in a homing missile.

nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,

Clark University ([hidden email])

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Cc: [hidden email]

Sent: 2/10/2010 1:01:04 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives

Is it possible that the ecology is evolutionary ... just a bunch of pigeons
pounding away at keys.  And everytime anybody  outsides Googleinvents anew
app, Google just opens up a new room full of pigeons?  

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, 
Clark University ([hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]




> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<[hidden email]>
> Date: 2/10/2010 11:55:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Buzz arrives
>
> I am fully convinced that there is a method to their madness.   But I 
> also believe that it would take an astute insider in Silicon Valley to 
> fully suss out what that is.   I'm sure there will be a "tell
all" book 
> about this Google Era.  My last visit to Google was about 4 years ago 
> (early Google Earth) and they were (for better and
worse) *all over the 
> place*.
>
> I too am frustrated that their "ecology" is so loosely 
> defined/coordinated.   Things work way better than one might wish but 
> they obviously are willing to leave a lot of ragged edges in favor of 
> lots of new services/apps/ideas.
> >
> > They are going to continue down that very same road which has taken 
> > them to all those multi billions of dollars which they keep stuffing 
> > into their overflowing coffers.  Why kill the goose that keeps laying 
> > all of those delicious golden eggs?
> >
> > And that is?  Can you describe "that very same road"?  I'm
serious.  
> > As far as I can see its near-random.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Owen Densmore

Re: Buzz arrives

Administrator

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

On Feb 10, 2010, at 12:08 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Disagree -- their (hugely successful) advertising platform is built upon and relies on their "architecture" to achieve the monstrous circulation it receives. The two aspects of their business plan are intertwined and cannot be separated if True Google Enlightenment is to be achieved.

OK, then lets take a poll of how folks use Google:

Search: Generally, although Yahoo has been giving me better results lately.

GMail: I only use it as a login to the rest of google. Never as primary mail.

Calendar: Yes, for everything and for integration with friends and sfcomplex

Maps: A lot

Earth: Only for a toy.

Desktop: Nope, crashes my system.

Chrome: No, not ready.

Google App Engine: Yes, like it even though its incomplete and likely to be ditched.

Maps API: Yes, built a GAE app with redfish that was fun and interesting.

Google Data API: Yup, Steve used it for tiny graphs in GAE app, its very cool.

Docs: No. Read others and post stuff I make on my desktop.

Apps: Can't even figure out why they call it that (its business web hosting) and why its wonderful.

Groups: Yes, as the site for Thinking Mathematically seminar Nick built.

Code: Some, OK for repositories, but will likely move on to GIT.

Wave: Tried as part of Nick's seminar but it fell apart and is not used anymore.

That's enough for a start. How about the rest of us. As you can see, my use is pretty isolated rather than integrated.

-- Owen