Friam

Biden beats Trump

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gepr

Re: Biden beats Trump

Proximity to Evergreen has been interesting. My interaction with Evergreen graduates and students indicates Bret Weinstein is simply traumatized and his story biased. But it's all hearsay to me.

Maybe there's an argument that the left is actually *competent*, whereas the right (in this country) is mostly buffoonish (excepting elites like Peter Thiel). I'd disagree, though. Having tried to follow the neo-reaction movement as it emerged from the rationalists (e.g. Yudkowsky -- and I suspect Robin Hanson), I think there's a significant risk the *next* right-wing President we have won't be a buffoon at all. Add to that the relatively Machiavellian players like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove, the puppet masters at the Federalist Society (who I think put Gorsuch and ACB in front of Trump), the Cato Institute, etc. and you've got a pretty significant set of non-buffoons working toward authoritarianism ... even if they don't *say* that's what they're doing. Compared to those Dark Lords, the left intelligentsia seems too scattered to do anything but *stumble* into it.

I fear tyranny no matter the style, left, right, lowest common denominator mediocrity, rejection by the Cool Kids ... all of it.

On 11/8/20 12:06 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West. Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that.
>
> But, somehow, “enriched intellectually” misses the point. It’s not what that person can do for me, it’s what we might accomplish together.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

David Eric Smith

Re: Biden beats Trump

> On Nov 9, 2020, at 6:42 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> etc. and you've got a pretty significant set of non-buffoons working toward authoritarianism ... even if they don't *say* that's what they're doing.

These days, I think they don’t even mind saying that’s what they are doing. That is a thing that has changed a bit after Trump tested the waters and found everybody was good with it.

Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.

I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.

Eric

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gepr

Re: Biden beats Trump

Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.

*After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.

On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>
> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Biden beats Trump

Chase each other, and those that do not belong there!

https://twitter.com/firstdogsusa/status/1325568700485931008

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 9:07 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

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David Eric Smith

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by gepr

Yes, much agreed Glen.

I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.

Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?

Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.

Best, so to speak,

Eric

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>
> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>
> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>
>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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Steve Smith

Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

Eric/Glen, et alia -

I have my own near stress-narcolepsy around extreme conspiracy theories,
perhaps for the reason you call out here: to stretch to identify a
range of threats and then seem to put all of the energy into normalizing
them rather than picking the ones you might be able to address or
ameliorate or deflect or take some kind of action against.   I'm quite
capable of morbid fascination over extreme cases, as long as I leave
them out beyond some pale of my own belief.   I'm not against gaming out
worst-case scenarios on the off chance that I can cache the results for
a future time when in fact those scenarios start to loom close enough to
take seriously.

While my lily-white-male privileged ass continues to want to deny that
the raving egomaniacs we have deferred (conferred) power to (via our
current aberrant instance of representative democracy) are near some
verge of throwing off the illusions that they are doing what they do "in
our name", it is no longer an abstract speculation for me and feels
*real* enough to me to bring my to the near side of this "uncanny valley".

To be honest, I am more likely "hopping" back and forth between trying
to think through meaningful responses and trying to find indicators that
this is all show, that it is all the last throes of a melodramatic
villain flopping around on stage exhibiting his (their) spiraling
through the stages of grief.

As a seeming tangent, I just watched a handful of documentary shorts on
Ernie Chambers from NE who was responsible for the splitting and keeping
their electoral votes split, but maybe more broadly importantly,
maintaining a powerful critical perspective on the conditions of African
Americans in the Industrial Midwest as a 6 term (1971-2009) State
Senator.   Possibly of interest is that he did all of this openly as an
Atheist.   His words and actions (especially early in his career)
carried a clear hopeful ideology about equality tempered by a hard-nosed
practicality.

zzzZZZZZzzzzz,

- Steve

On 11/11/20 6:47 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:

> Yes, much agreed Glen.
>
> I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.
>
> Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?
>
> Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.
>
> Best, so to speak,
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>>
>> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>>
>> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>>
>>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>>
>> --
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
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>
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>

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

How do the names of these threads get changed?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:45 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric/Glen, et alia -

I have my own near stress-narcolepsy around extreme conspiracy theories,
perhaps for the reason you call out here: to stretch to identify a
range of threats and then seem to put all of the energy into normalizing
them rather than picking the ones you might be able to address or
ameliorate or deflect or take some kind of action against.   I'm quite
capable of morbid fascination over extreme cases, as long as I leave
them out beyond some pale of my own belief.   I'm not against gaming out
worst-case scenarios on the off chance that I can cache the results for
a future time when in fact those scenarios start to loom close enough to
take seriously.

While my lily-white-male privileged ass continues to want to deny that
the raving egomaniacs we have deferred (conferred) power to (via our
current aberrant instance of representative democracy) are near some
verge of throwing off the illusions that they are doing what they do "in
our name", it is no longer an abstract speculation for me and feels
*real* enough to me to bring my to the near side of this "uncanny valley".

To be honest, I am more likely "hopping" back and forth between trying
to think through meaningful responses and trying to find indicators that
this is all show, that it is all the last throes of a melodramatic
villain flopping around on stage exhibiting his (their) spiraling
through the stages of grief.

As a seeming tangent, I just watched a handful of documentary shorts on
Ernie Chambers from NE who was responsible for the splitting and keeping
their electoral votes split, but maybe more broadly importantly,
maintaining a powerful critical perspective on the conditions of African
Americans in the Industrial Midwest as a 6 term (1971-2009) State
Senator.   Possibly of interest is that he did all of this openly as an
Atheist.   His words and actions (especially early in his career)
carried a clear hopeful ideology about equality tempered by a hard-nosed
practicality.

zzzZZZZZzzzzz,

- Steve

On 11/11/20 6:47 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> Yes, much agreed Glen.
>
> I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.
>
> Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?
>
> Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.
>
> Best, so to speak,
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>>
>> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>>
>> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>>
>>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>>
>> --
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>
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Steve Smith

Re: Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

On 11/11/20 8:57 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> How do the names of these threads get changed?

I changed this one manually... I simply edited the Subject Line in my
"Reply To List" response.

When Owen was active here, he was a stickler against "thread bending"
and to the extent that my replies are almost *always* a tangent, I used
to feel *more* compelled to branch the Subject. I may be one of the few
who try to maintain any of the inheritance of a thread with the "was:"
idiom.

How important is thread hygiene to you (and others) here? I'd like it
if we were more thoughtful/consistent with this and I would *try* to
comply if others came up with some guidelines. I think the more facile
members of the list (Glen in particular) have good tools and habits to
make up for our wild thread bending/fraying/splattering, but I suspect
it is a problem for some (many)?

- Steve

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thompnickson2

Re: Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

I think the thread-bending horse left the barn a decade ago. Even Owen could bend a thread or two in his time. .

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 11:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

On 11/11/20 8:57 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> How do the names of these threads get changed?

I changed this one manually... I simply edited the Subject Line in my "Reply To List" response.

When Owen was active here, he was a stickler against "thread bending"
and to the extent that my replies are almost *always* a tangent, I used to feel *more* compelled to branch the Subject. I may be one of the few who try to maintain any of the inheritance of a thread with the "was:"
idiom.

How important is thread hygiene to you (and others) here? I'd like it if we were more thoughtful/consistent with this and I would *try* to comply if others came up with some guidelines. I think the more facile members of the list (Glen in particular) have good tools and habits to make up for our wild thread bending/fraying/splattering, but I suspect it is a problem for some (many)?

- Steve

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

My generous read is that the Trump enablers are allowing Trump to rage for a while, let the lawsuits demonstrate their pointlessness, let him fiddle with the government pointlessly, and hope that he'll come up with a suitably Trumpian way to concede while not conceding, probably a grandiose resignation. Arguing with him about this is clearly a one way ticket to his shit list, and having watched him rally so many voters to his candidacy they are loathe to give even the least hint of abandoning him. The TV networks taking his rants about fraud off the air probably discourages him more than anything else. Maybe we should offer to throw him a state funeral -- with tanks and flyovers -- for the end of his term? And promise that everyone will say it had better ratings than the Biden inauguration?

The exit polls heard that 34% of voters voted the economy, On TV I saw a black business woman from North Carolina say her vote for Trump was about the way he was making it easier for her business to succeed. Then I heard a young latino from Florida say his vote was against the democrat socialist tendencies. I listened to a neighbor from the projects, who actually voted Biden, rant about the evil of a welfare system that has institutionalized single motherhood as a career and intergenerational family tradition. These aren't the typical voices of Trump's base, these are traditional Republican issues: government regulations hurt business; you can't fix the world by telling it to be better, no matter what penalties; the best intentions can have unintended consequences worse than the original disease. These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons.

It might be my own fantasy, but I think a majority of Americans do not disagree about the ends. They would prefer an equitable society where none of the usual suspects biased any one person's pursuit of happiness in life. They would prefer to live in a world where environmental disasters large and small were not lurking around every turn of the season. They would prefer if the rest of the world enjoyed the prosperity and freedom that we have here. But there is a disagreement about the means to these ends that's been a Democrat/Republican talking point for almost a hundred years now.

I think the Democrats and Progressives need to eviscerate the Trump coalition by persuading the rational part of Trump's vote that it doesn't need hold their nose and vote for Trump to be heard. Well, I guess they did have to, but they won't have to in the future. That will be an interesting feat of bipartisanship if Biden can pull it off. Call it the New Way Forward.

-- rec --

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, much agreed Glen.

I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.

Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?

Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.

Best, so to speak,

Eric

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>
> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>
> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>
>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>
>
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>
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Steve Smith

The Last Threadbender was: Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

> I think the thread-bending horse left the barn a decade ago. Even Owen could bend a thread or two in his time. .
>
> N

NLT-

If I believed that literally and were (more) obtuse than I am I might
start removing Subject lines entirely.

I do not believe they are superflous and depend on my own (weak but
still operating) associative memory to glean something from
thread:author:sequence triples when I try to decide what to (re)read
thoroughly or to refer back to after someone makes a previously
uninteresting/relevant (to me) thread interesting/relevant.

I don't know when I became an "old dog" but I find myself
avoiding/resisting "new tricks" like the ones the Morlocks provide (e.g.
nabble) and Glen points us at from time to time (e.g SMMRY
https://smmry.com/).

FWIW I just gandered (you can verbize any noun?) nabble:FriAM and
realized the last column provides a "score" or "roster" of who has had
the "last word" in a given thread, for better or worse.

- SAS

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thompnickson2

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

Steve,

Did you hear the interview with the nice young man who thought that we should suspend the constitution for the next 20 years and let the Trump family handle things. It was said completely guilelessly.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 11:29 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

-- rec --

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, much agreed Glen.

I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.

Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?

Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.

Best, so to speak,

Eric

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>
> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>
> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>
>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>
>
> --
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Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Speaking of Owen, did he just decide there was insufficient signal to noise ratio?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11/11/20 8:57 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

> How do the names of these threads get changed?

I changed this one manually... I simply edited the Subject Line in my
"Reply To List" response.

When Owen was active here, he was a stickler against "thread bending"
and to the extent that my replies are almost *always* a tangent, I used
to feel *more* compelled to branch the Subject. I may be one of the few
who try to maintain any of the inheritance of a thread with the "was:"
idiom.

How important is thread hygiene to you (and others) here? I'd like it
if we were more thoughtful/consistent with this and I would *try* to
comply if others came up with some guidelines. I think the more facile
members of the list (Glen in particular) have good tools and habits to
make up for our wild thread bending/fraying/splattering, but I suspect
it is a problem for some (many)?

- Steve

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Steve Smith

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

- rec -

All very well said...

> It might be my own fantasy, but I think a majority of Americans do not
> disagree about the ends. They would prefer an equitable society where
> none of the usual suspects biased any one person's pursuit of
> happiness in life. They would prefer to live in a world where
> environmental disasters large and small were not lurking around every
> turn of the season. They would prefer if the rest of the world
> enjoyed the prosperity and freedom that we have here. But there is a
> disagreement about the means to these ends that's been a
> Democrat/Republican talking point for almost a hundred years now.
>
> I think the Democrats and Progressives need to eviscerate the Trump
> coalition by persuading the rational part of Trump's vote that it
> doesn't need hold their nose and vote for Trump to be heard. Well, I
> guess they did have to, but they won't have to in the future. That
> will be an interesting feat of bipartisanship if Biden can pull it
> off. Call it the New Way Forward.

I find myself looking for ways that my own words and behaviour can
promote this outcome.   Up to but not including the "enabling the
bully/abuser" that Glen (and others) have called out.

I've already poured my support into the Dems getting this win, as
incomplete as it may feel (unless the Georgia runoffs surprise us)...
and my goal is NOT to make sure that the Democrats run the country with
an open ended mandate. To the extent that I accept the (current?)
inevitability of a two-party country, I am hoping that the bulk of the
Left/Right issues shift their center significantly to the Left without
overtly confronting/punishing the Right.   I don't need to outlaw
Praying, Christmas or Easter or make Abortion mandatory ,Infanticide
legal or round up every private firearm.   I would like to live in a
nation where not being overtly (extravagantly?) Christian is not
required for many forms of advancement/participation, and I would like
to know that most if not all *legal* firearm owners *are* responsible in
their care and use at all levels... no more Zimmermans, Rittenhouses, or
Reinoehls and especially a drastic reduction in "death by Police
Officer" (by bullet or knee).

- sas

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Steve Smith

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Steve,

Did you hear the interview with the nice young man who thought that we should suspend the constitution for the next 20 years and let the Trump family handle things. It was said completely guilelessly.

Nick

This was Roger's Rant, (Rave, more apropos?) not mine, though I do approve/endorse it. Am I that much of a chameleon that you mistook his voice for mine?

-Steve

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 11:29 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

My generous read is that the Trump enablers are allowing Trump to rage for a while, let the lawsuits demonstrate their pointlessness, let him fiddle with the government pointlessly, and hope that he'll come up with a suitably Trumpian way to concede while not conceding, probably a grandiose resignation. Arguing with him about this is clearly a one way ticket to his shit list, and having watched him rally so many voters to his candidacy they are loathe to give even the least hint of abandoning him. The TV networks taking his rants about fraud off the air probably discourages him more than anything else. Maybe we should offer to throw him a state funeral -- with tanks and flyovers -- for the end of his term? And promise that everyone will say it had better ratings than the Biden inauguration?

The exit polls heard that 34% of voters voted the economy, On TV I saw a black business woman from North Carolina say her vote for Trump was about the way he was making it easier for her business to succeed. Then I heard a young latino from Florida say his vote was against the democrat socialist tendencies. I listened to a neighbor from the projects, who actually voted Biden, rant about the evil of a welfare system that has institutionalized single motherhood as a career and intergenerational family tradition. These aren't the typical voices of Trump's base, these are traditional Republican issues: government regulations hurt business; you can't fix the world by telling it to be better, no matter what penalties; the best intentions can have unintended consequences worse than the original disease. These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons.

It might be my own fantasy, but I think a majority of Americans do not disagree about the ends. They would prefer an equitable society where none of the usual suspects biased any one person's pursuit of happiness in life. They would prefer to live in a world where environmental disasters large and small were not lurking around every turn of the season. They would prefer if the rest of the world enjoyed the prosperity and freedom that we have here. But there is a disagreement about the means to these ends that's been a Democrat/Republican talking point for almost a hundred years now.

I think the Democrats and Progressives need to eviscerate the Trump coalition by persuading the rational part of Trump's vote that it doesn't need hold their nose and vote for Trump to be heard. Well, I guess they did have to, but they won't have to in the future. That will be an interesting feat of bipartisanship if Biden can pull it off. Call it the New Way Forward.

-- rec --

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, much agreed Glen.

I am getting to the point where something combining tedium and stress-narcolepsy puts me to sleep, wading through more newspaper articles saying in (performative?) outrage: McConnell has just said this self-contradictory and hypocritical thing! How could he! How can his supporters not recognize this! etc.

Yes. And Duterte and MBS have just had some more people killed, and Putin has poisoned somebody else. They will cease to do this when they are stopped, and not before. Their followers and collaborators too. So what’s the plan?

Will be interesting if trump is firing people at DOD, in the Pentagon, etc., because he wants, together with Pompeo and Barr, to try some military move against either the US public, or some other country to create some leverage situation against the US public. My mind doesn’t work in a way that recognizes what might be appealing to them to try in that arena.

Best, so to speak,

Eric

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep. The other thread talking about uniting us in the face of polarization seem to miss this point. One pundit expressed it well "You don't seek unity with your abuser." As Barr and a host of Republicans, including McConnell <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/us/politics/republicans-trump-concede-2020-election.html>, continue to hypocritically undermine the electoral process, any attempt to "unite" with them is akin to co-dependency with a narcissist spouse.
>
> *After* the dust settles, Biden has no choice but to wrangle and hog-tie the bad faith actors into productive behavior. But until then, everyone who continues making unsubstantiated claims of fraud should be seen as what they are. Skepticism is a good mistress, but a bad master.
>
> On 11/9/20 5:09 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> Those with access to Georgia TV stations can watch David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler make a pack and attack Raffensperger, or whatever his name is — the election commissioner — because he ran an actually remarkably competent and clean election, rather than stealing it for them. Pretty transparent.
>>
>> I was impressed and thought he deserved a lot of credit. Of course Stacey Abrams is a hero, but that’s another story.
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

Roger writes:

< These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons. >

Many of those that could not work due to COVID restrictions are often in battleground or red states. That’s the only way I can possibly begin to rationalize the 71 million. To me, overlooking those things is unacceptable. It’s not useful to exercise any empathy for them. They made a deal with the devil. It should have been a win by 50 million, not 5 million.

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: Biden beats Trump

But Marcus,

What does your lack of empathy GET you?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 12:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

Roger writes:

< These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons. >

Marcus

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Biden beats Trump

It gives one the freedom to think outside the box on how to resolve the situation.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:46 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

But Marcus,

What does your lack of empathy GET you?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Roger writes:

< These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons. >

Marcus

gepr

Re: Biden beats Trump

And it questions the implicit assumption that others think at all like you think. "The problem with communication is the illusion that it exists."

I was happy to hear that a leader of the Proud Boys is finally being more true to himself ... more honest and authentic!

https://www.newsweek.com/proud-boys-based-stickman-enrique-tarrio-goys-1546597

You be you! You cute little racist sh¡t.

On 11/11/20 10:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> It gives one the freedom to think outside the box on how to resolve the situation.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <[hidden email]> *On Behalf Of *[hidden email]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:46 AM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump
>
>
>
> But Marcus,
>
>
>
> What does your lack of empathy GET you?

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: Biden beats Trump

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

But isn’t empathy ALSO a tool for arriving at solutions. I stupulate that it is not the ONLY such tool.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 12:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

It gives one the freedom to think outside the box on how to resolve the situation.

But Marcus,

What does your lack of empathy GET you?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Roger writes:

< These people weren't voting for rascism, misogyny, narcissism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, gimp shaming, science denialism, or all that other baggage, they were overlooking it for reasons. >

Marcus

1234