Biden beats Trump

[Jochen Fromm-5]

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

-J.

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[thompnickson2]

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

But I have no idea where to start.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 10:14 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[thompnickson2]

Hi, Frank,

 

In principle, I would try it; with covid, no way. Some way to work remotely?

 

Eric pointed out something about a week ago, which is either a great insight, or a shared prejudice, and I haven’t figured out  which: my values tell me that the fact that I disagree profoundly with 70 million of my fellow citizens is an instability that needs to be addressed;  it isn’t clear to me that any of those 70 million feel the same way.  The crowd of trumpers on the street yesterday give passers-by the four-fingered salute were not recruiting but making a display of their own solidarity.  I ever a Trumper were to write me and say, “I want to talk,” I would be all in. 

 

N

 

 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

But I have no idea where to start.

Come down to Mountainair with me one of these days.

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 10:14 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[thompnickson2]

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[John Dobson]

You do know why they sent Rudi Giuliana to a landscape center: the GOP is the party of lawn order.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

-J.

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Nick writes:

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Merle Lefkoff-2]

Jochen, Trump will unfortunately be with us for a long time to come.  His leadership was able to turn out extraordinary numbers of voters, enough to change Congress, governorships, state legislatures.  The Democratic party is facing terrible internal fights, while it seems to me the Republican party is still steadfastly unified under Trump.

For those on the list interested in what Biden can actually accomplish without Congress in his first 100 days, go to:  prospect.org, "The 277 policies for which Biden need not ask permission."  There you can also read about the results of the Biden-Sanders Unity Task Force from July, primarily regarding global warming and environmental justice. This is where the hope might be for uniting the Democratic party.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

-J.

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Merle writes:

< Trump will unfortunately be with us for a long time to come.  His leadership was able to turn out extraordinary numbers of voters, enough to change Congress, governorships, state legislatures.  The Democratic party is facing terrible internal fights, while it seems to me the Republican party is still steadfastly unified under Trump. >

It will soon be easier to prosecute him criminally at the state level.

If he were shown to be laundering money, shown to be rapist, shown to be a traitor, that might do some harm to their cause.   At least if he were sent to prison, he'd have less access to Fox News.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>; Stuart Kauffman <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen, Trump will unfortunately be with us for a long time to come.  His leadership was able to turn out extraordinary numbers of voters, enough to change Congress, governorships, state legislatures.  The Democratic party is facing terrible internal fights, while it seems to me the Republican party is still steadfastly unified under Trump.

For those on the list interested in what Biden can actually accomplish without Congress in his first 100 days, go to:  prospect.org, "The 277 policies for which Biden need not ask permission."  There you can also read about the results of the Biden-Sanders Unity Task Force from July, primarily regarding global warming and environmental justice. This is where the hope might be for uniting the Democratic party.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

-J.

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

Nick,

An experience:

There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in highschool.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA.  We went to numerous formal dances and had friends in common but our "relationship" was entirely superficial in my opinion.  I eventually realized that she was very similar to my sisters whom I found kind of annoying. So, she was familiar but not much else.

We stayed in touch over the years.  She became an RN and had two manly sons--a police officer and an airline pilot.  A few months ago I became aware that she was a Trump supporter.  About a month ago I referred to him as incompetent and dishonest in a message to her.  She unfriended me on Facebook and didn't otherwise respond.  When my granddaughter was born on Monday I sent her a photo of the baby and said that she probably wasn't aware of the news because of the unfriending.  She said, "You know why I did that don't you?"  I said, "Because I criticized Trump?"  She said that it was because I put a thumbs up on the announcement of his Covid-19 diagnosis.  Now, I did not do that and I told her that.  

For me, this was the most real interaction we had in the 60+ years we've known each other.  If we have no further contact it's fine with me.

Frank

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[thompnickson2]

Frank,

 

How do we undo the problem by unfriending people?  I just don’t see it.

 

Merle, can you take us to a Northern Ireland Castle with some right wingers and heal the rift?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 1:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick,

 

An experience:

 

There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in highschool.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA.  We went to numerous formal dances and had friends in common but our "relationship" was entirely superficial in my opinion.  I eventually realized that she was very similar to my sisters whom I found kind of annoying. So, she was familiar but not much else.

 

We stayed in touch over the years.  She became an RN and had two manly sons--a police officer and an airline pilot.  A few months ago I became aware that she was a Trump supporter.  About a month ago I referred to him as incompetent and dishonest in a message to her.  She unfriended me on Facebook and didn't otherwise respond.  When my granddaughter was born on Monday I sent her a photo of the baby and said that she probably wasn't aware of the news because of the unfriending.  She said, "You know why I did that don't you?"  I said, "Because I criticized Trump?"  She said that it was because I put a thumbs up on the announcement of his Covid-19 diagnosis.  Now, I did not do that and I told her that.  

 

For me, this was the most real interaction we had in the 60+ years we've known each other.  If we have no further contact it's fine with me.

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Frank writes:

< There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in high school.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA. >

Yes, that notion if we just hold things in place -- like with fences across the Mexico border -- then the conditions will hold so that some people like Margie will get perfect GPAs and have lovely children that are police offers and airline pilots.   Unfortunately, it's not like that.  Complexity happens.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick,

An experience:

There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in highschool.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA.  We went to numerous formal dances and had friends in common but our "relationship" was entirely superficial in my opinion.  I eventually realized that she was very similar to my sisters whom I found kind of annoying. So, she was familiar but not much else.

We stayed in touch over the years.  She became an RN and had two manly sons--a police officer and an airline pilot.  A few months ago I became aware that she was a Trump supporter.  About a month ago I referred to him as incompetent and dishonest in a message to her.  She unfriended me on Facebook and didn't otherwise respond.  When my granddaughter was born on Monday I sent her a photo of the baby and said that she probably wasn't aware of the news because of the unfriending.  She said, "You know why I did that don't you?"  I said, "Because I criticized Trump?"  She said that it was because I put a thumbs up on the announcement of his Covid-19 diagnosis.  Now, I did not do that and I told her that.  

For me, this was the most real interaction we had in the 60+ years we've known each other.  If we have no further contact it's fine with me.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Frank Wimberly-2]

Maybe they're "invincible ignorants" as the Catholic Church used to call Protestants.  They didn't deny that they were Christians, as far as I know.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:51 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

 

How do we undo the problem by unfriending people?  I just don’t see it.

 

Merle, can you take us to a Northern Ireland Castle with some right wingers and heal the rift?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 1:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick,

 

An experience:

 

There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in highschool.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA.  We went to numerous formal dances and had friends in common but our "relationship" was entirely superficial in my opinion.  I eventually realized that she was very similar to my sisters whom I found kind of annoying. So, she was familiar but not much else.

 

We stayed in touch over the years.  She became an RN and had two manly sons--a police officer and an airline pilot.  A few months ago I became aware that she was a Trump supporter.  About a month ago I referred to him as incompetent and dishonest in a message to her.  She unfriended me on Facebook and didn't otherwise respond.  When my granddaughter was born on Monday I sent her a photo of the baby and said that she probably wasn't aware of the news because of the unfriending.  She said, "You know why I did that don't you?"  I said, "Because I criticized Trump?"  She said that it was because I put a thumbs up on the announcement of his Covid-19 diagnosis.  Now, I did not do that and I told her that.  

 

For me, this was the most real interaction we had in the 60+ years we've known each other.  If we have no further contact it's fine with me.

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Merle Lefkoff-2]

Thank you for the reminder about local indictments, Marcus, which I forgot to include.  Let's hope Trump goes to jail sooner rather than later. But there's still time between now and January to do additional serious long-term damage to the republic, especially as remaining life-time federal judiciary appointments continue to move forward with the blessings of the Trump Repubican Senate. There seem to be 35 nominees before the Judiciary Committe now and 19 already awaiting confirmation.  

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Merle writes:

< Trump will unfortunately be with us for a long time to come.  His leadership was able to turn out extraordinary numbers of voters, enough to change Congress, governorships, state legislatures.  The Democratic party is facing terrible internal fights, while it seems to me the Republican party is still steadfastly unified under Trump. >

It will soon be easier to prosecute him criminally at the state level.

If he were shown to be laundering money, shown to be rapist, shown to be a traitor, that might do some harm to their cause.   At least if he were sent to prison, he'd have less access to Fox News.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>; Stuart Kauffman <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen, Trump will unfortunately be with us for a long time to come.  His leadership was able to turn out extraordinary numbers of voters, enough to change Congress, governorships, state legislatures.  The Democratic party is facing terrible internal fights, while it seems to me the Republican party is still steadfastly unified under Trump.

For those on the list interested in what Biden can actually accomplish without Congress in his first 100 days, go to:  prospect.org, "The 277 policies for which Biden need not ask permission."  There you can also read about the results of the Biden-Sanders Unity Task Force from July, primarily regarding global warming and environmental justice. This is where the hope might be for uniting the Democratic party.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:19 AM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

-J.

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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--

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  [phone]
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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[thompnickson2]

Marcus,

 

I have been mulling your question.  First, a person is the worst judge of his own values.  I don’t make any claim to my own values, only announce a partisan observation subject to contradiction.  I yield to you better judgement of my values.

 

Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West.  Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that. 

 

But, somehow, “enriched intellectually” misses the point. It’s not what that person can do for me, it’s what we might accomplish together. 

 

Nick  

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Merle Lefkoff-2]

Excellent suggestion, Nick.  I'll take it up with our Board.

Seriously, though, I have recently written about how the N. Ireland peace process got started--and how it managed to conclude through undying commitment.  (We were involved at different points in the process.)  Protestant and Catholic women formed a united front and made it happen through non-violent protest and very sophisticated emergent strategy. 

If I had a vanity wall, instead of one filled with socialist slogans, it would include a photo of me and Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Corrigan Maguire hugging each other tightly at a post-conflict peace conference.  So far, even given the Brexit border issue, the peace has held.  Lots of lessons there.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:51 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

 

How do we undo the problem by unfriending people?  I just don’t see it.

 

Merle, can you take us to a Northern Ireland Castle with some right wingers and heal the rift?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 1:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick,

 

An experience:

 

There was a pretty girl that I had crush on in highschool.  Margie was hyper conscientious and had a perfect GPA.  We went to numerous formal dances and had friends in common but our "relationship" was entirely superficial in my opinion.  I eventually realized that she was very similar to my sisters whom I found kind of annoying. So, she was familiar but not much else.

 

We stayed in touch over the years.  She became an RN and had two manly sons--a police officer and an airline pilot.  A few months ago I became aware that she was a Trump supporter.  About a month ago I referred to him as incompetent and dishonest in a message to her.  She unfriended me on Facebook and didn't otherwise respond.  When my granddaughter was born on Monday I sent her a photo of the baby and said that she probably wasn't aware of the news because of the unfriending.  She said, "You know why I did that don't you?"  I said, "Because I criticized Trump?"  She said that it was because I put a thumbs up on the announcement of his Covid-19 diagnosis.  Now, I did not do that and I told her that.  

 

For me, this was the most real interaction we had in the 60+ years we've known each other.  If we have no further contact it's fine with me.

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 11:32 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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--

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Nick writes:

< Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West.  Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that.  > 

Donald Jr. remarked yesterday that the 70 million who voted for Trump hadn't burned down any cities.   As if there were any comparison between being on the losing side of this election and having the economy stacked against a class of people for centuries.  And curiously rounding up from a bit of looting here and there to burning down a city!    I'm from Portland myself, and I'm told that it was a nothingburger in terms of impact on daily life in the city.

The Trumpers are just afraid of the "far left" because they know they have it coming.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 1:06 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus,

 

I have been mulling your question.  First, a person is the worst judge of his own values.  I don’t make any claim to my own values, only announce a partisan observation subject to contradiction.  I yield to you better judgement of my values.

 

Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West.  Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that. 

 

But, somehow, “enriched intellectually” misses the point. It’s not what that person can do for me, it’s what we might accomplish together. 

 

Nick  

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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[Barry MacKichan]

I thought it was “lawn ordure”.

—Barry

On 8 Nov 2020, at 13:30, John Dobson wrote:

You do know why they sent Rudi Giuliana to a landscape center: the GOP is the party of lawn order.

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[thompnickson2]

Glad to hear that data!

 

By the way, who IS this Weinstein guy and why do trains keep running over him?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 2:17 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick writes:

 

< Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West.  Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that.  > 

 

Donald Jr. remarked yesterday that the 70 million who voted for Trump hadn't burned down any cities.   As if there were any comparison between being on the losing side of this election and having the economy stacked against a class of people for centuries.  And curiously rounding up from a bit of looting here and there to burning down a city!    I'm from Portland myself, and I'm told that it was a nothingburger in terms of impact on daily life in the city.

 

The Trumpers are just afraid of the "far left" because they know they have it coming.

 

Marcus

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From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 1:06 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus,

 

I have been mulling your question.  First, a person is the worst judge of his own values.  I don’t make any claim to my own values, only announce a partisan observation subject to contradiction.  I yield to you better judgement of my values.

 

Still, Trumpers’ fear of the far left is something that has given me a “huh” moment, particularly when endorsed by Weinstein and our own Dave West.  Glen, living in the NW, might have insight on that. 

 

But, somehow, “enriched intellectually” misses the point. It’s not what that person can do for me, it’s what we might accomplish together. 

 

Nick  

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 12:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Nick writes:

 

< That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  Your imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning. >

 

What is an example of nuance in a Trumper's "argument" where you have been enriched intellectually, or where you gained insight into their tactics or strategy that you otherwise would have not gained?

 

When would it finally cross the line for you?    Does it ever cross the line? 

 

Marcus

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From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:14 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Marcus, 

 

That desire not to lose contact with my “enemy” is constitutional with me.  You imperative is like telling me not to breath.  Somebody said, ‘A value is a principle that one is helpless to disobey.’ Anything  else is just moral positioning.  

 

Now mind you, I am all in for Ossoff.  (All On for Oss-OFF?) And Warnock.  I find the name Warnock so intriguing I would probably favor him even if he were a republican. 

 

Where are you sending YOUR money?

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

< According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start. >

 

Just don't.  Waste of time.  Let's keep our eyes on the ball.  Now is the time focus on taking the Ossoff seat.   I do hope Ms. Harris is (or can become) the monster Trump claims, and takes on the role of Cheney for the Dems.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:13 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

Jochen,

 

After my original bout of hysteria, I have been pretty sure that Biden was going to win this narrowly.  But this outcome hasn’t improved my mood.  Hysteria still lurks, because 70 million Americans, more than any that have voted for any other presidential candidate except Biden, have endorsed the Presidency of  Donald Trump.  That this fact should be beyond my comprehension shows me – as Dave West has been pointing out – the weakness of my model of the people I am living among.   Imagine how you would feel if 49 percent of the German electorate have voted for a neo-Nazi or 49 percent of the French had voted for Le Pen.

 

              According to my benighted Deweyan, Liberal, Bleeding-Heart ethos, this fact implies a duty to reach  out to these folks and try to find some common ground  on which to stand and from which to work. But I have no idea where to start.

 

But thanks for your good wishes.  Lord knows we will need them.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 4:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Biden beats Trump

 

America has been able to accomplish what Europe has not been able to do before WW II: stop fascism (in form of an authoritarian dictatorship) before it was able to take root in the system. Congratulations! It feels good that the old America is back. People are celebrating in the streets in NY and DC while team Trump is holding one of the last press conferences at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping (!) center in Philadelphia. It is hard to say what is bigger: the malice or the incompetence of team Trump. It is such a relief that we no longer have to hear each day about Trump.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/four-seasons-total-landscaping-trump-team-news-conference.html

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

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