A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
 
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Now for something completely different: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil exporter. Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. -- Owen
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Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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Insane as it sounds, A better question is if the US should first join
the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) considering that the US has more Muslims (5+ million) than half OIC's member nations. On 2/27/12, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: > Now for something completely different: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html > > Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil > exporter. > > Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. > > -- Owen > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I suspect that both South American members of the OPEC are not
interested in such a bright idea. Maybe later when right returns. By the
way, although Hispanic population in USA exceeds the population of the
most populated hispanic country in South America and We are just at
three flying hours from Miami, by now in UNASUR we are fine, thanks.
2012/2/27 Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
-- Alfredo ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Where did you see that the US is now a net
oil exporter? The attachments below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect
the picture hasn't changed much since then (US imports 75% of its oil for
consumption). I believe I saw reference to "potential exporter" in the NY
Times article.
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html
This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a bit lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. It certainly is surprising.
-- Owen On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil importers.
-- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles Google voice: 747-999-5105 On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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Thanks for the clarification. It is still
surprising nonetheless.
----- Original Message -----
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Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
US Companies explore, exploit and export petroleum from almost every country in the world. 2012/2/27 Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
-- Alfredo ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one
of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so
that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I
haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my
assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of
US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract
previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand.
There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather
misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast
majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and
other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and
re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export
abroad.
The link below shows some of the definitions used
in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could
mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I
suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people
guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game.
From the link: "Petroleum products are
obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural
gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished
oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor
gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate
fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas,
lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and
miscellaneous products."
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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<base href="x-msg://432/">This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future.
On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote:
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Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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<BASE
href="x-msg://432/">
Thanks for responding. Of course with natural
gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some
ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems
like it will be a big economic driver for a while.
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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Gasland was an excellent movie. It's point was that gas is not the clean fuel it advertises to be, it just shifts some (not even all) of it's impact from when it is used by the consumer to when it is extracted. It is not just fracking, although of course that worsens things; gas drilling is just a disruptive activity by itself. And the film also emphasized that the gas companies are irresponsible, not out for our interests, and so will not bother to find more ecologically sound practices. The best way, it seems, to make our energy environmentally conscious (so to speak) is to produce it ourselves, and the easiest way to do that is to use small renewable stations like solar, or perhaps a small wind/water turbine. Or polywells, I suppose, if they ever take off.
-Arlo James Barnes ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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In reply to this post by Hugh Trenchard
Greetings, all --
"Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing...
My $0.02,
- Claiborne Booker -
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? Thanks for responding. Of course with natural
gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some
ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems
like it will be a big economic driver for a while.
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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I'm not sure this statement is correct…"natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons)"
I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Greetings, all -- > > "Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... > > My $0.02, > > - Claiborne Booker - > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Thorp > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. > > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: > >> Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. >> >> The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. >> >> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp >> >> From the link: "Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products." >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Russ Abbott >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Cc: Hugh Trenchard >> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil importers. >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> Google+: https://plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: >> From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html >> While some Americans cut back on driving as gas prices soar, the U.S. has become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in nearly 20 years. >> According to data from the Energy Department,starting last November -- with the exception of the month of January -- the U.S. began exporting more petroleum products than it imported. >> >> This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a bit lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. >> >> The theory is that between the recession (thus less use of fuel, both supply side and demand), conservation/efficiency, and more recent hi-tech oil/gas exploitation (horizontal drilling), the US consumption has dropped and the production has increased, causing a net surplus. >> >> It certainly is surprising. >> >> -- Owen >> >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Where did you see that the US is now a net oil exporter? The attachments below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect the picture hasn't changed much since then (US imports 75% of its oil for consumption). I believe I saw reference to "potential exporter" in the NY Times article. >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/26/GR2008072601599.html >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdsdigital/4056035804/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Owen Densmore >> To: Complexity Coffee Group >> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:14 AM >> Subject: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> Now for something completely different: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html >> Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil exporter. >> >> Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. >> >> -- Owen >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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Heaters/furnaces/burners.
They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. Ray Parks ----- Original Message ----- From: David Mirly [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? I'm not sure this statement is correct…"natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons)" I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Greetings, all -- > > "Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... > > My $0.02, > > - Claiborne Booker - > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Thorp > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. > > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: > >> Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. >> >> The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. >> >> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp >> >> From the link: "Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products." >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Russ Abbott >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Cc: Hugh Trenchard >> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil importers. >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> Google+: https://plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: >> From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html >> While some Americans cut back on driving as gas prices soar, the U.S. has become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in nearly 20 years. >> According to data from the Energy Department,starting last November -- with the exception of the month of January -- the U.S. began exporting more petroleum products than it imported. >> >> This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a bit lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. >> >> The theory is that between the recession (thus less use of fuel, both supply side and demand), conservation/efficiency, and more recent hi-tech oil/gas exploitation (horizontal drilling), the US consumption has dropped and the production has increased, causing a net surplus. >> >> It certainly is surprising. >> >> -- Owen >> >> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Where did you see that the US is now a net oil exporter? The attachments below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect the picture hasn't changed much since then (US imports 75% of its oil for consumption). I believe I saw reference to "potential exporter" in the NY Times article. >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/26/GR2008072601599.html >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdsdigital/4056035804/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Owen Densmore >> To: Complexity Coffee Group >> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:14 AM >> Subject: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> Now for something completely different: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html >> Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil exporter. >> >> Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. >> >> -- Owen >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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True, refineries use an enormous amount of electricity.
But my point was that natural gas is not an ingredient in the production of gasoline itself. If electricity generated by natural gas and then used by oil refineries was the point of the original post then I missed that. At the refinery I worked at, we built a coke gasification unit to generate our own electricity. 40 Mw. On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: > Heaters/furnaces/burners. > > They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. > > Ray Parks > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Mirly [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > I'm not sure this statement is correct…"natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons)" > > I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. > > Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. > > > > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > >> Greetings, all -- >> >> "Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... >> >> My $0.02, >> >> - Claiborne Booker - >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Thorp >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: >> >>> Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. >>> >>> The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. >>> >>> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp >>> >>> From the link: "Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products." >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Russ Abbott >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> Cc: Hugh Trenchard >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >>> >>> We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil importers. >>> >>> -- Russ Abbott >>> _____________________________________________ >>> Professor, Computer Science >>> California State University, Los Angeles >>> >>> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >>> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >>> _____________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html >>> While some Americans cut back on driving as gas prices soar, the U.S. has become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in nearly 20 years. >>> According to data from the Energy Department,starting last November -- with the exception of the month of January -- the U.S. began exporting more petroleum products than it imported. >>> >>> This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a bit lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. >>> >>> The theory is that between the recession (thus less use of fuel, both supply side and demand), conservation/efficiency, and more recent hi-tech oil/gas exploitation (horizontal drilling), the US consumption has dropped and the production has increased, causing a net surplus. >>> >>> It certainly is surprising. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Where did you see that the US is now a net oil exporter? The attachments below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect the picture hasn't changed much since then (US imports 75% of its oil for consumption). I believe I saw reference to "potential exporter" in the NY Times article. >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/26/GR2008072601599.html >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdsdigital/4056035804/ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Owen Densmore >>> To: Complexity Coffee Group >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:14 AM >>> Subject: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >>> >>> Now for something completely different: >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html >>> Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil exporter. >>> >>> Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at >> http://www.friam.org >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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David --
Thanks for your comment. I suppose I should have been both more specific and more vague. It is sometimes an "input", not an "ingredient". Steam cracking, which sometimes uses LPG, appears not to be necessary for gasoline production, but it is useful for other hydrocarbons.
Please excuse my speculations. I have not worked in a refinery, but rather in the refined confines of energy analysis, which may explain some of my inexact language. I welcome all corrections.
- Claiborne - -----Original Message-----
From: David Mirly <[hidden email]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 4:10 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? True, refineries use an enormous amount of electricity. But my point was that natural gas is not an ingredient in the production of gasoline itself. If electricity generated by natural gas and then used by oil refineries was the point of the original post then I missed that. At the refinery I worked at, we built a coke gasification unit to generate our own electricity. 40 Mw. On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: > Heaters/furnaces/burners. > > They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. > > Ray Parks > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Mirly [[hidden email]] > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? > > I'm not sure this statement is correct…"natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons)" > > I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. > > Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. > > > > > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > >> Greetings, all -- >> >> "Gasland" is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... >> >> My $0.02, >> >> - Claiborne Booker - >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is "Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joshua Thorp >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >> >> This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: >> >>> Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. >>> >>> The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. >>> >>> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp >>> >>> From the link: "Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products." >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Russ Abbott >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> Cc: Hugh Trenchard >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >>> >>> We exported more petroleum products, not more oil. We are still net oil importers. >>> >>> -- Russ Abbott >>> _____________________________________________ >>> Professor, Computer Science >>> California State University, Los Angeles >>> >>> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >>> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >>> _____________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/us-becomes-net-exporter-o_n_857085.html >>> While some Americans cut back on driving as gas prices soar, the U.S. has become a net exporter of fuel for the first time in nearly 20 years. >>> According to data from the Energy Department,starting last November -- with the exception of the month of January -- the U.S. began exporting more petroleum products than it imported. >>> >>> This is not the source I got the idea from, its been in the news quite a bit lately, this is just the first google hit I tried. >>> >>> The theory is that between the recession (thus less use of fuel, both supply side and demand), conservation/efficiency, and more recent hi-tech oil/gas exploitation (horizontal drilling), the US consumption has dropped and the production has increased, causing a net surplus. >>> >>> It certainly is surprising. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Hugh Trenchard <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Where did you see that the US is now a net oil exporter? The attachments below are 2008 and 2009, but I suspect the picture hasn't changed much since then (US imports 75% of its oil for consumption). I believe I saw reference to "potential exporter" in the NY Times article. >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/26/GR2008072601599.html >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdsdigital/4056035804/ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Owen Densmore >>> To: Complexity Coffee Group >>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:14 AM >>> Subject: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? >>> >>> Now for something completely different: >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-good-question.html >>> Basically whether or not the US should join OPEC now that it is a net oil exporter. >>> >>> Insane as it sounds, there is some reason in the discussion. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at >> http://www.friam.org >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
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I contacted a chemical engineer I used to work with (I was just a computer monkey) and we did indeed use a lot of natural gas to fire various things and also to produce hydrogen. The hydrogen was used in a process to remove sulfur from diesel.
So sorry, your real point that refineries consume a lot of natural gas is of course correct. I'll shut up now. On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:01 PM, [hidden email] wrote: David -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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