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99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

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Nick Thompson

99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Dear Local Friammers,

I asked others on the list to inform me about Occupy Wall Street –type activities in Santa Fe, and, since nobody did and since I learned a little more, myself, I thought I would say what I think I know.

(1) The Group at the State Capitol building house seemed to represent many (laudable) interests but to have no over- arching message yet or a well-defined local target. Lots of friendly horn beeping and waves and only one negative comment from a guy who seemed to shout at us that we were “prawns!” “Prawns?!” we said. Oh PAWNS! But then the light changed and he was gone.

(2) The center of the group’s activities has been the Bank of America at the corner of Peralta and St. Francis just where St. Francis starts up the hill toward 599 and Tesuque, etc. Some have been camped (with permission) on an empty lot across the street.

(3) That permission is running out and the group will meet there meet tomorrow evening to discuss next steps. All interested parties presumably invited.

(4) The group’s web presence seemed not yet well organized. Perhaps it is getting organized as I speak, but since there are a lot of people on the Friam list with relevant skills, perhaps some of us might want to take notice.

(5) I have some experience with Google Sites and I have offered (please, don’t laugh), (if nobody better puts up his/her hand), to put together a primitive Google Site/Group for the purpose of posting information, offering a forum, etc. But I have experience only with private Google Sites and have a sense from reading Google Help Forums that public Google Sites are terribly vulnerable to outside interference. Is this true? Do you have advice to give me in this matter. Is Facebook a far better way of achieving these goals.

(6) The above information is gathered informally and may all be incorrect.

Thank you for your patience.

I stipulate that this is not the place for a political discussion and that many of you would probably disagree with me vehemently on many matters, so I will leave it at that. As soon as there is a local distribution list or equivalent, there will be no need to discuss such matters in this forum, for which, I assume, many of you will be grateful.

Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Victoria Hughes

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Ah Nick, you are a treasure. I have no info: very busy with a professional watershed event and my place in it, so I watch and honk as I drive by but choose not to participate. IF I had info, you would definitely be getting it!

Tory

Tory Hughes

www.toryhughes.com

RAM- Terra Nova

Milagro Hacienda creativity retreat

On Oct 15, 2011, at 10:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Dear Local Friammers,

I asked others on the list to inform me about Occupy Wall Street –type activities in Santa Fe, and, since nobody did and since I learned a little more, myself, I thought I would say what I think I know.

(1)    The Group at the State Capitol building house seemed to represent many (laudable) interests but to have no over- arching message yet or a well-defined local target. Lots of friendly horn beeping and waves and only one negative comment from a guy who seemed to shout at us that we were “prawns!” “Prawns?!” we said. Oh PAWNS! But then the light changed and he was gone.
(2)    The center of the group’s activities has been the Bank of America at the corner of Peralta and St. Francis just where St. Francis starts up the hill toward 599 and Tesuque, etc. Some have been camped (with permission) on an empty lot across the street.
(3)    That permission is running out and the group will meet there meet tomorrow evening to discuss next steps. All interested parties presumably invited.
(4)    The group’s web presence seemed not yet well organized. Perhaps it is getting organized as I speak, but since there are a lot of people on the Friam list with relevant skills, perhaps some of us might want to take notice.
(5)    I have some experience with Google Sites and I have offered (please, don’t laugh), (if nobody better puts up his/her hand), to put together a primitive Google Site/Group for the purpose of posting information, offering a forum, etc. But I have experience only with private Google Sites and have a sense from reading Google Help Forums that public Google Sites are terribly vulnerable to outside interference. Is this true? Do you have advice to give me in this matter. Is Facebook a far better way of achieving these goals.
(6)    The above information is gathered informally and may all be incorrect.

Thank you for your patience.

I stipulate that this is not the place for a political discussion and that many of you would probably disagree with me vehemently on many matters, so I will leave it at that. As soon as there is a local distribution list or equivalent, there will be no need to discuss such matters in this forum, for which, I assume, many of you will be grateful.

Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Local Friammers,

<snip>

Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.

And emergence. Let's not forget the deep discussions of emergence.

Nick

--Doug

Owen Densmore

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Administrator

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Local Friammers,

<snip>

Thank you for the report, interesting.

I stipulate that this is not the place for a political discussion and that many of you would probably disagree with me vehemently on many matters, so I will leave it at that. As soon as there is a local distribution list or equivalent, there will be no need to discuss such matters in this forum, for which, I assume, many of you will be grateful.

WTF? Why *not* talk about things of this nature here? We've often done so in the past.

Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.

Ah, now your talking! But usually not about apps as far as I recall, more about core tech and being fucked over by The Man. CDMA, GSM, 2G, 3G and more, but appps? Not much but to congratulate Tyler on his success.

Nick

Gillian Densmore

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Personally I think a open diolague about a broken system at all levels
is a Good Thing. It's even better though when people start proposing
solutions. Kim Sorvig noted that the US economy is basicly run by
gambling-ie investments in Wall Street. I don't have enough game
theory or economics to show why that's a bad thing. I can show that as
far back as Wall Street has existed it's become a increesingly bad
design though.
Speeking of "the man"- with T-Mobile US future somewhat in doubt i've
been doing some diging and came across something interesting:
http://www.shopstraighttalk.com/
offers for 45USD a plan that includes unlimited data- the downside is
that in newmexico they don't offer droid phones (yet). As much as I
like the idea of going to verizon- how do they get off on charging
50USD for a REQUIRED unlimited Data package-unless you go through the
webstore and get 4g data as a addon package?
I point this out because IF my friends start up gets off the ground
she wants me on bord in some copacity-but that'd meen moving back the
bay. I can't justify paying 95 dollars for cellphone service just
because i'd need directions.
The other interesting one is:
http://www.earthtones.com/
they claim that if a phone isn't offered you can get ahold of them and
try to make arangements. Plus they have midling coverage.
Here's another interesting question: Why does CDMA from verizon have
bad ass coverage compared to T-Mobile that's spoty at best where you
need it? (like roads or hotels.)

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Local Friammers,
>>
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>
> Thank you for the report, interesting.
>
>>
>> I stipulate that this is not the place for a political discussion and that
>> many of you would probably disagree with me vehemently on many matters, so I
>> will leave it at that. As soon as there is a local distribution list or
>> equivalent, there will be no need to discuss such matters in this forum, for
>> which, I assume, many of you will be grateful.
>
> WTF? Why *not* talk about things of this nature here? We've often done so
> in the past.
>
>>
>> Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.
>
> Ah, now your talking! But usually not about apps as far as I recall, more
> about core tech and being fucked over by The Man. CDMA, GSM, 2G, 3G and
> more, but appps? Not much but to congratulate Tyler on his success.
>
>>
>> Nick
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

Rich Murray-2

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

What a wonderful treat on Wednesday night in Santa Fe, New Mexico,
Earth, Observable Universe, the immensely huger Unobservable Universe
( a multiplication by a number greater than 1 with 75 million zeros )
within the same expanding space-time-energy universe bubble, within a
source infinity that effortlessly allows infinities of such universe
bubbles, and far, far more, which I point at by saying,

"Each of us is already always all of single entire unified creative
fractal hyperinfinity..."

So we are sentient raisins with cinnamon in a very big, stupendous and
sweet cake, always cooking, always fresh, forever moist...

What Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within thee..."

He shot off his mouth sometimes, overturned some tables, but carried
no weapons, and didn't even avoid arrest...

The early Christians were communists, sharing their worldly goods,
sharing inspired ecstasy and many literal miracles...

So, loving and enjoying and treasuring the various lines of thought
shared well and sweetly by my niece and my colleague, rather than
fiddle with the dials of life, trying to tune in the right station
amidst the storm of chaotic channels and outright static, I teasingly
offer the alternative of personally requestioning everything,
everything, for if all this has a single root, what is it, really?
Did the root vanish and become irrelevant because a huge ecology
always evolving vegetation seems to both express its being and power
and yet seem to also cover, obscure, and even contradict it?

Or is the root immune, absolute, real, beyond spaces and times,
actually infinite -- and fractal means that every tiniest bit of it is
all of it...

Or even radically already here, within awareness, the soft quiet dark
soul soil of your awareness this very instant, the soft damp warm
fertile soil that supports every weed and flower of sensation,
perception, memory, thought, family, society, physical environment?...

So, my list is everything that fits within a global Christ realized
communism, not bureaucratized or controlled, but a sweet sanity of
forever incredibly compex interacting innovations that profoundly
enrich and bless all participants within a completely open reality
play that practically totally transcends all previous human cultural
structures of identity, location, communication, space, time,
causality, life, death, sharing infinitely incandescent creative glory
in unimpeachable holiness and forever unlimited unique individuality
-- why praise ye me, for it is the Father within that doeth the works?

Please, I beg thee, be curious -- what is spiritual experience? Can
you imagine such a thing in your life as vigorously growing, ever
evolving, unpredictable, literally inconceivable personal experience
that nevertheless can be easily be shared -- "Where two or more are
gathered in my meaning, there also I must be..."

Please, do not just sit, crawl, or walk in circles, rush for the exit!

Everything at once is the exit...

Where is this very present moment of deeply personal experience, in
which the visual field of your awareness creates and generates
plentiful meanings from these very little crooked le t t e r
marks.. . . . . . . ?

Where is here?

Where is hear?

within mutual service, Rich

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Nicholas Thompson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok, I have a moment. Let me try to answer some of your points here. First,
> let me say that I don’t think Uncle Richard and I agree on everything.
> Second, I think I disagree with you even more. Third, I think – feel, what
> have you – that if people who disagree with one another don’t learn to talk
> to each other in this country, we are doomed. Four, I think most people
> most of the time start with their conclusions, and work back, changing their
> view of the facts and reasoning as necessary to conserve their conclusions.
> So, for minds to change in an argument is VERY VERY rare. But we must try.
>
>
>
> From: Anne Rowland [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 3:32 PM
> To: Rich Murray; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; Rich
> Murray
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
>
>
>
> Dear Uncle Richard,
>
>
>
> I've read through your e-mail and although I love you and respect your
> spiritual nature, I have to disagree with many of your suggestions. In an
> ideal utopia populated by unselfish people, some of these ideas might work,
> but we don't live in such a world at this time.
>
> [NST ==>] People are neither inherently selfish or unselfish. It depends on
> the circumstances. And selfishness is neither inherently evil or inherently
> good. Groups can do evil and unselfish adherence to a group that is doing
> evil can be the worst sort of evil.
>
>
>
> You've suggested free health care, free phone and internet access, free
> food, free education. (#1, #4, #11, #17) Great idea. Who pays for it?
> Doctors, internet providers, farmers and teachers all deserve to be paid for
> their goods and services. To ask them or any other people to to work and
> provide to others for free sounds close to slavery.
>
> [NST ==>] if uncle Richard argued for free … etc., I would have disagreed
> with him. But there is a notion of “deserve” there which I might have asked
> you to rethink. “Deserve” and “rights” and “entitlement” are funny sorts of
> words because while they describe something I can “have”, the really refer
> to something that somebody else has contracted to give me. In the absence
> of obligations accepted by others, there are not rights, etc. Slavery is an
> odd word to use in this context because, if I undertake to work for you for
> no pay, I would not be a slave – by definition. So at that point in the
> argument, you are not arguing fair with Uncle Richard.
>
>
>
> Several of your suggestions take freedoms from us. ( #2) Allowing public
> funding of candidates would limit my ability to support a candidate I
> believe in and at the same time force me to support candidates and policies
> I oppose.
>
> [NST ==>] Freedoms are all relative to other freedoms and to the freedom of
> others. Imagine a situation in which a man was so rich that he could by all
> the television advertising time for his candidates. No other candidates
> could appear on television. Would you defend his right to do so?
>
>
>
> (#9) Redesign housing? I don't want the government to tell me what kind of
> house I can live in or what car I drive.
>
> [NST ==>] Governments tell you these sorts of things all the time. Building
> codes, zoning, etc. There is in common law the concept of public wellbeing
> and it is the role of governments to see to it. The most obvious example of
> this sort of power is in cases where the individual can endanger the health
> of the entire community. How far would you go to defend the rights of
> somebody with small pox to run around kissing other people. Not very far, I
> would guess, right? “NO FAIR!” , you say. Extreme case. Yes, and the
> cases grade away from that extreme. What about helmet laws? What about the
> laws the prohibit texting while driving? These are all situations in which
> the public has an interest that may override the individual interest. What
> about smoking? There is a lot of evidence that my smoking affects your
> health. How do we work out these conflicts of interest?
>
>
>
> One of the problems here is that people are often not very good at
> calculating their own interest in a situation. They think, for instance,
> that THEY probably won’t have a head injury riding a motorcycle. And in
> fact, that is correct. Most people wont. But when it happens, it is the
> rest of us that pick up the tab, no. I can imagine a law that said, under
> no circumstances shall a person injured in a motorcycle accident be admitted
> at any public hospital without prepayment of all bills that are likely to
> be incurred in a motorcycle accident. Perhaps, you could get a special
> license fromDMV which allows you not to wear a helmet or do up your seat
> belt, but which requires you to post a million dollars bond to cover
> hospital and burial costs. That would be a possible libertarian world. But
> just as some of Rich’s ideas don’t work because people are to selfish, these
> ideas don’t work because people are too altruistic. And bonded or not,
> somebody with a severe head injury is going to be treated.
>
>
>
> (#10) Great idea to use these energy sources, but I can't afford some of
> them. Forcing us to use only these would reduce the quality of living for
> many of us. We should be able to choose. (#3) Public lobbying only, with
> immediate transcripts of all conversations sounds very intrusive and "Big
> Brother" like. I don't want everything I say to my representatives recorded.
> (#19) I am a woman living alone. I have the right to protect myself with a
> weapon should the situation ever arise.
>
> [NST ==>]
>
> Well, skipping head because it is late. I don’t think any state has a law
> against the keeping of a properly licensed hand gun in a private home for
> that purpose. So you already have a right to do that. But I believe that
> the probability that that firearm will be (a) stolen and used in a felony
> (b) result in an accidental shooting of some sort (c) or be used for a
> suicide is much greater than the probability that it will ever be used to
> prevent and intrusion. In cases a, b, and c. again, the rest of us pick up
> the tab. Now once again, you will say, that you will be an exception to that
> rule. But scientific investigation after investigation shows that people
> just naturally think that they are exceptions to all these rules.
>
>
>
> Gotta go to bed. Sorry I couldn’t do it all. Nick
>
> (#20) Great idea. I hate a lot of what I see in TV shows and commercials as
> well. Say goodbye to free speech. (#21) I don't want outsiders involved in
> my spirituality
>
>
>
> I love your suggestion to encourage entrepreneurs to evolve and innovate,
> but most of your other suggestions do the exact opposite. As a business
> person myself, there's no reason for me to invest my own money to build a
> new business if it is all to be taxed away and given to others. (#1, #4,
> #5, #6, #10, #11, #14, #15, #16, #17) (#26) If we want to encourage small
> businesses to proliferate, let them keep more of the money they earn.
>
>
>
> My last comments on your suggestions are more loosely grouped.
>
>
>
> #7 There are already laws against fraud. I should be able to choose my own
> investments. I'm not sure I trust the government to pick safe stocks.
> (Solyndra...)
>
> #8 Yes! We agree here on equal rights!
>
> #11 We agree on healthy & safe food. I'm in this business! I should not
> have to give it away for free.
>
> #13 Great suggestions for some troubled people. I still want rapists and
> murderers locked up.
>
> #18 I agree that pot should be legalized. Other harder drugs - I'm not
> convinced that legalizing them is a good idea.
>
> #22 What benefit would there be to joining the EU?
>
> #23 Yes, perhaps some bases should be closed, but to keep our country safe,
> we do need the ability to act quickly in many parts of the world.
>
> #24 Yes - in many cases I agree that foreign military aid should be cut.
>
> #25 Foreign aid is a big part of who we are as Americans, but we are
> overspending on so many things here at home. Foreign aid should be
> re-evaluated as to where this aid is spent.
>
>
>
> I must say that I don't expect to change your mind with my comments, nor am
> I really trying to. I don't plan to become involved in a drawn out debate
> with you or others. I just wanted to present another side to your
> suggestions.
>
>
>
> With love, Annette
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Rich Murray" <[hidden email]>
>
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> <[hidden email]>; "Rich Murray" <[hidden email]>; "Rich Murray"
> <[hidden email]>
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:59 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
>
>
>
> I am grateful for your initiative -- I'll join the group for a few
> hours -- this wave of original, heart-felt upwelling joining and
> sharing is extremely wonderful -- I suggest setting up a continuous
> live video site, along with a public arena for candid sharing and
> discussion --
>
> 1. universal free full health care, including full truth about safe
> and healthy food, drink, and environment
>
> 2. only public funding of all candidates
>
> 3. any lobbying has to be only by fully public forever archived
> communications, with immediate transcripts of all oral conversations
>
> 4. universal free global phone and Net access, with affordable or free
> tablets for everyone over 6
>
> 5. high and rising minimum wage
>
> 6. 4 day 6 hour/day standard work week
>
> 7. minimum safe citizen's investment income on positive productive
> investments, democratically owner owned and run, at above 6 % yearly,
> with rules that prevent evolution of stock market Ponzi effects
>
> 8. positive equal rights and opportunities for all
>
> 9. redesign of houses and cars for simplicity, elegance, low cost,
> sustainability
>
> 10. nonpolluting power sources only -- solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, wave
>
> 11. healthy and safe food for free for all
>
> 12. entrepreneurs encouraged to evolve innovative business networks
> that are maximally beneficial and empowering for themselves,
> owner-investors, and all humanity
>
> 13. eliminate the superstitious and primitive concept of retribution
> and punishment in improving social order, replaced by use of small
> group processes like AA and cooperative group homes of no more than 30
> members, with thorough therapy, reeducation, health care, recreation,
> normal sex available, Skype sharing with friends and family,
> meaningful work at all levels, full salary for work performed,
> training in helping others
>
> 14. high and rising minimum wage for all workers
>
> 15. 3 month yearly vacation for all workers
>
> 16. tax rises with total income to 95% at $ 100 million
>
> 17. free unlimited universal education
>
> 18. legalization of drugs, with close monitoring of actual effects on people
>
> 19. elimination of weapons that kill people
>
> 20. promote self-regulation of media to limit advertising for
> violence, greed, ostentatiousness, selfishness, sexual acting out
>
> 21. promote spiritual exploration and sharing
>
> 22. join the European Union
>
> 23. close all 1,000 foreign military bases
>
> 24. cease all foreign military aid
>
> 25. substantially increase positive only foreign aid
>
> 26. set up rules that encourage proliferation of firms smaller than 30 folks
>
> within single hyperinfinity,
> Rich Murray
> [hidden email]
> 505-819-7388
> rich.murray11 Skype audio, video
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear Local Friammers,
>>
>> I asked others on the list to inform me about Occupy Wall Street –type
>> activities in Santa Fe, and, since nobody did and since I learned a little
>> more, myself, I thought I would say what I think I know.
>>
>> (1) The Group at the State Capitol building house seemed to represent
>> many (laudable) interests but to have no over- arching message yet or a
>> well-defined local target. Lots of friendly horn beeping and waves and
>> only
>> one negative comment from a guy who seemed to shout at us that we were
>> “prawns!” “Prawns?!” we said. Oh PAWNS! But then the light changed and he
>> was gone.
>>
>> (2) The center of the group’s activities has been the Bank of America at
>> the corner of Peralta and St. Francis just where St. Francis starts up the
>> hill toward 599 and Tesuque, etc. Some have been camped (with permission)
>> on an empty lot across the street.
>>
>> (3) That permission is running out and the group will meet there meet
>> tomorrow evening to discuss next steps. All interested parties presumably
>> invited.
>>
>> (4) The group’s web presence seemed not yet well organized. Perhaps it
>> is getting organized as I speak, but since there are a lot of people on
>> the
>> Friam list with relevant skills, perhaps some of us might want to take
>> notice.
>>
>> (5) I have some experience with Google Sites and I have offered (please,
>> don’t laugh), (if nobody better puts up his/her hand), to put together a
>> primitive Google Site/Group for the purpose of posting information,
>> offering
>> a forum, etc. But I have experience only with private Google Sites and
>> have
>> a sense from reading Google Help Forums that public Google Sites are
>> terribly vulnerable to outside interference. Is this true? Do you have
>> advice to give me in this matter. Is Facebook a far better way of
>> achieving
>> these goals.
>>
>> (6) The above information is gathered informally and may all be
>> incorrect.
>>
>> Thank you for your patience.
>>
>> I stipulate that this is not the place for a political discussion and that
>> many of you would probably disagree with me vehemently on many matters, so
>> I
>> will leave it at that. As soon as there is a local distribution list or
>> equivalent, there will be no need to discuss such matters in this forum,
>> for
>> which, I assume, many of you will be grateful.
>>
>> Back to the discussion of cellphone apps.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>> http://www.cusf.org

Rich Murray-2

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
overview by James Traverse:

http://www.beingyoga.com/

[ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]

Know Thyself

Be a Light unto Yourself

"Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon

"Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse

"Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein

Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.

There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
of mistaken identity and separation.

“You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein

The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
without distortion.

Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
nature.

Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!

"What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Gillian Densmore

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.
.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
> overview by James Traverse:
>
> http://www.beingyoga.com/
>
> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]
>
> Know Thyself
>
> Be a Light unto Yourself
>
> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon
>
> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse
>
> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein
>
> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.
>
> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
> of mistaken identity and separation.
>
> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein
>
> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
> without distortion.
>
> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
> nature.
>
> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!
>
> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

Sarbajit Roy (testing)

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Hi

"360 a week (before tax). Ouch." is roughly what an average productive worker (and his large extended family) in a LDC survives on for a YEAR.

It seems to me that a bunch of very rich nations led by the USA have gotten together and decided to "interfere" (citing human rights etc.) in the affairs of other nations to control (and tremendously profit from) the supply of common resources like OIL and GAS, thereby eventually causing your 99% (most of whom live way beyond their means anyway in a credit based bubble economy) to come onto the streets (or the internet).

Philip K Dick anticipated this 60 years ago and a good solution would be to have collective amnesia over all the money (and carbon credits) Americans owe the rest of the world.

Sarbajit

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 2:47 AM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.

Eric Charles

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Rich Murray-2

Gillian,
Hmmmm.... trying to put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should....

Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group?

Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way.

Alas... what are the factors?

Eric

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.
.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
> overview by James Traverse:
>
> http://www.beingyoga.com/
>
> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]
>
> Know Thyself
>
> Be a Light unto Yourself
>
> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon
>
> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse
>
> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein
>
> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.
>
> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
> of mistaken identity and separation.
>
> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein
>
> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
> without distortion.
>
> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
> nature.
>
> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!
>
> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Nick Thompson

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

I think these are the right questions, Eric. Given that people can be progroup and anti group and given that groups can be benign and vicious, how do we promote benign groupness.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:32 PM
To: Gillian Densmore
Cc: Anne Rowland; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.

Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.

Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on

$9.00 an hour?

even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.

Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending

on how it's implimented.

The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )

citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some

net benifits.

I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as

humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the

quality of life for all?

Just as a here in the comunity example:

I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a

productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius

forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment

at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot

of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by

X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better

good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as

Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)

makes for a stronger whole.

Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources

twards things that achieve that goal?

just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear

> overview by James Traverse:

> http://www.beingyoga.com/

> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]

> Know Thyself

> Be a Light unto Yourself

> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon

> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse

> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein

> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all

> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your

> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to

> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.

> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening

> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally

> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall

> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of

> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root

> of mistaken identity and separation.

> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.

> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein

> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as

> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated

> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that

> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the

> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains

> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function

> without distortion.

> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is

> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away

> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true

> nature.

> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening

> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!

> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you

> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse

> ============================================================

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Carl Tollander

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

The issue may not be "how to get the advantaged to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group". The issue is that they do that by failing to see that anyone is disadvantaged.

On 10/27/11 8:32 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.
.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray [hidden email] wrote:
> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
> overview by James Traverse:
>
> http://www.beingyoga.com/
>
> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]
>
> Know Thyself
>
> Be a Light unto Yourself
>
> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon
>
> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse
>
> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein
>
> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.
>
> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
> of mistaken identity and separation.
>
> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein
>
> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
> without distortion.
>
> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
> nature.
>
> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!
>
> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Carl Tollander

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Group membership is not necessarily self-selecting. Perceiving group identity, deciding to be part of the group, working to be accepted into the group, and having the group 'accept' a member are different activities, and of course there are multiple groups with competing, occasionally dynamic membership criteria and membership itself is fuzzy.

On 10/27/11 8:32 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.
.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray [hidden email] wrote:
> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
> overview by James Traverse:
>
> http://www.beingyoga.com/
>
> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]
>
> Know Thyself
>
> Be a Light unto Yourself
>
> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon
>
> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse
>
> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein
>
> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.
>
> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
> of mistaken identity and separation.
>
> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein
>
> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
> without distortion.
>
> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
> nature.
>
> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!
>
> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

simulating group membership [was 99%, occupyWallStreet]

Yes, group formation is complicated, but that is sidestepping the question.

The issue is: What happenings are people responding to when they believe themselves to be members of a group, and what happenings are the members of the group responding to when they believe someone else to now be a member. Certainly there will be variation, but despite that variability there will also be a high rate of predictability. There is a whole science (that I am not immersed in) on group membership and group formation.

It is a simple problem that is difficult to solve because of the complexity. It would be interesting to start brainstorming a simulation. A simple netlogo program could be constructed, group membership could be a trait of the individual. Group membership could be changed by a combination of self-traits ("desire", etc.) and circumstance ("acceptance by those around you", etc.). There could even be room for an individual to "feel" they are part of a group when many members of the group feel otherwise. The goal would be to determine how environmental variables (especially variables we might have a shot of manipulating in real life) effect the groups individuals feel they are a part of.

Of course, as with any agent based modeling situation, one big challenge would be constructing a simulation has flexibility to surprise us with its results (i.e., one that doesn't just do exactly what we intentionally programmed it to do).

Eric

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 12:02 AM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:

Group membership is not necessarily self-selecting. Perceiving group identity, deciding to be part of the group, working to be accepted into the group, and having the group 'accept' a member are different activities, and of course there are multiple groups with competing, occasionally dynamic membership criteria and membership itself is fuzzy.

On 10/27/11 8:32 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote:

Gillian,
Hmmmm.... trying to put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should....

Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group?

Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way.

Alas... what are the factors?

Eric

Rich Murray-2

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Carl Tollander

How good to see such humane, thoughtful, generous, respectful, humble,
competent SHARING

within single human family,

within all of single entire unified creative fractal hyperinfinity,
not hyper finicky... Rich

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Group membership is not necessarily self-selecting. Perceiving group
> identity, deciding to be part of the group, working to be accepted into the
> group, and having the group 'accept' a member are different activities, and
> of course there are multiple groups with competing, occasionally dynamic
> membership criteria and membership itself is fuzzy.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

How to make people feel they are part of a Group…

If they collectively decide to cover up a crime through willful blindness then they establish some certainty that they belong.

Groups seem to demand that individuals Believe the unBelievable. It seems that some human beings have the capacity to smooth out ethical contradictions by simply choosing to live in another reality. When many people choose to live in the same delusion they are effectively a Group.

There seems to be a belief that Groups can exonerate the individual through Magic and Amnesia. The recent news of sexual crimes in Penn State reinforce this perspective.

The Group seems able to deny it’s crimes while selecting a scapegoat to carry their burdens. Groups seem much stronger when Criminality is involved even though each individual denies it’s existence. The Group might be nothing more than a psychological construct to absorb Guilt and at a high price.

Groups seem to choose Noble leaders to establish a pretense of heroicism and much later dispose of the leader along with the memory of their individual crimes

This seems characteristic of much current political drama. Reluctant scapegoats fight tooth and nail to avoid the demand to be sacrificed for the good people.

The Group has a fantastic attribute of Goodness which disguises the Dark side of perversity. People mostly use this contradiction to satisfy their own problems.

I would have thought that as our population increases that corruption would prevail, however there do seem to be indications that many are bucking the trend.

Groups seem very well devised to exclude individuals that have questionable ethics. These Groups have inadvertantly created their own nemesis.

The history of confronting corruption is dismal overall. Managers seem particularly prone to Group Think and demonstrate that they are absolutely convinced that they can ignore all legal responsibility for individual acts. Society still is unprepared to prosecute Group Think in all its devilish rationalizations.

The lack of meaningful leadership globally is perhaps due to so many living I a delusional state of mind where someone else will always end up being scapegoated.

At least Pontius Pilot tried to wash his own hands.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: October-27-11 9:32 PM
To: Gillian Densmore
Cc: Anne Rowland; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.

Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.

Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on

$9.00 an hour?

even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.

Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending

on how it's implimented.

The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )

citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some

net benifits.

I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as

humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the

quality of life for all?

Just as a here in the comunity example:

I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a

productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius

forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment

at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot

of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by

X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better

good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as

Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)

makes for a stronger whole.

Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources

twards things that achieve that goal?

just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear

> overview by James Traverse:

> http://www.beingyoga.com/

> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]

> Know Thyself

> Be a Light unto Yourself

> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon

> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse

> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein

> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all

> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your

> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to

> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.

> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening

> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally

> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall

> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of

> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root

> of mistaken identity and separation.

> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.

> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein

> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as

> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated

> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that

> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the

> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains

> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function

> without distortion.

> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is

> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away

> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true

> nature.

> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening

> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!

> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you

> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse

> ============================================================

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Steve Smith

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Does this apply to Google Groups as well ;^)

How to make people feel they are part of a Group…

If they collectively decide to cover up a crime through willful blindness then they establish some certainty that they belong.

Groups seem to demand that individuals Believe the unBelievable. It seems that some human beings have the capacity to smooth out ethical contradictions by simply choosing to live in another reality. When many people choose to live in the same delusion they are effectively a Group.

There seems to be a belief that Groups can exonerate the individual through Magic and Amnesia. The recent news of sexual crimes in Penn State reinforce this perspective.

The Group seems able to deny it’s crimes while selecting a scapegoat to carry their burdens. Groups seem much stronger when Criminality is involved even though each individual denies it’s existence. The Group might be nothing more than a psychological construct to absorb Guilt and at a high price.

Groups seem to choose Noble leaders to establish a pretense of heroicism and much later dispose of the leader along with the memory of their individual crimes

This seems characteristic of much current political drama. Reluctant scapegoats fight tooth and nail to avoid the demand to be sacrificed for the good people.

The Group has a fantastic attribute of Goodness which disguises the Dark side of perversity. People mostly use this contradiction to satisfy their own problems.

I would have thought that as our population increases that corruption would prevail, however there do seem to be indications that many are bucking the trend.

Groups seem very well devised to exclude individuals that have questionable ethics. These Groups have inadvertantly created their own nemesis.

The history of confronting corruption is dismal overall. Managers seem particularly prone to Group Think and demonstrate that they are absolutely convinced that they can ignore all legal responsibility for individual acts. Society still is unprepared to prosecute Group Think in all its devilish rationalizations.

The lack of meaningful leadership globally is perhaps due to so many living I a delusional state of mind where someone else will always end up being scapegoated.

At least Pontius Pilot tried to wash his own hands.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: October-27-11 9:32 PM
To: Gillian Densmore
Cc: Anne Rowland; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Gillian,
Hmmmm.... trying to put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should....

Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group?

Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way.

Alas... what are the factors?

Eric

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels.
Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense.
Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on
$9.00 an hour?
even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch.
Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending
on how it's implimented.
The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all )
citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some
net benifits.
I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as
humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the
quality of life for all?
Just as a here in the comunity example:
I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a
productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius
forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment
at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot
of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by
X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better
good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as
Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents)
makes for a stronger whole.
Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources
twards things that achieve that goal?
just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many.
.
 
 
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear
> overview by James Traverse:
> 
> http://www.beingyoga.com/
> 
> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ]
> 
> Know Thyself
> 
> Be a Light unto Yourself
> 
> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon
> 
> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse
> 
> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein
> 
> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all
> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your
> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to
> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end.
> 
> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening
> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally
> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall
> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of
> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root
> of mistaken identity and separation.
> 
> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein
> 
> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as
> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated
> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that
> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the
> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains
> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function
> without distortion.
> 
> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is
> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away
> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true
> nature.
> 
> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening
> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does!
> 
> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you
> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse
> 
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> 
 
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
 
 
Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.

Hi Steve,

I am not sure about Google but many Internet Groups exhibit a bit of the conventional school yard bully tactics.

In general this Friam Group seems relatively free from that sort of thing. At least no one is accusing me of thinking I am some “Kind of Scientist”

I suspect that groups without the dirty deceit component are less stable. Members rotate in and out freely. However in a situation like Penn State there must have been a culture of entitlement. Entry into the Group was very selective. That made the difference.

Such Groups could be called perverted. The local Gardening Club seems less vulnerable. The more nasty the hazing ritual and the membership fees the more likely it will dally with metaphysical rationalizations. ( Belief in the Un Believable.)

Many such Groups apparently have a small cadre of cynics at the core cleverly disguised in heroic roles. Now these cynics do not really believe in the Group it is enough to have fools eager to believe for them. It seems the worst outcome arises when the fools learn or suspect they have been deceived. Bernie Madoff story.

Denial coupled by a willingness to believe in the UnBelievable seems to create a stable structure. Eventually the game gets so common that everyone wants to run his own Group of Believers… This vector seems to explain the Blogging phenomenon in a small part. Typically one can test for a perverted Group Structure by simply asking the” uncomfortable question” and wait for a response. Such Groups seem very much used to slinging the dirt, what strikes me as odd is that ,however divergent such Groups, they use the same principles to attack and defend. False accusation , convenient accusation, religious heresy, or pederasty are the favorite tools of character assassination.

Of all the range of evil and deviant acts a human being can perpetrate why only a handful are ever employed is curious and these seem to originate in the pre Christian period. I guess no one will get a public hearing for folding a document or collecting butterflies. But if someone declares the butterfly to be endangered then maybe some small action would be taken. But a sexual inpropriety Trumps all accusations. In the case of Penn State perhaps the collaborators understood how dangerous the evidence was and kept the secret to themselves, deluding themselves that there was no problem anymore. Delusion and Group Perversion seem inextricable. I might add entitlement, that feeling may have arisen simply because the cost of entry in the Group was so restricted/inflated.

The openness of the internet may lead to the exposure of Group Perversion in the long run and curtail this phenomenon, but in the short term the special interest groups seem to be attempting to undermine the Net with much nonsense. Most people are very Gullible ,Some few less so. Education should have changed proportions but seems accidentally to have enhanced general Gullibility. For a time I simply assumed most people were pathologically stupid, I regret this assumption now. The truth seems more astonishing, even very brilliant people are Gullible in certain aspects. A good scientist never trusts his own judgment too easily except for microscopes and hotdogs. His fellows should provide criticism when he goes astray.

Heroes never consider other options and therefore always end up as a scapegoat for their former supporters/collaborators.

At Penn State there will be in time many more small voices of criticism there may already have been many plastered over. But eventually we all must understand that white lies to protect a colleague are insidious. You are just as guilty of a crime as he. Collegiality is not an excuse to break the law, nor is fear.

The real mystery is why it is so easy for us to become collaborators. We actually operate like Mafia Gangs with a lot of Pomp and Ceremony.

I was asked recently by friends fro North Africa, “What should be done with Collaborators” I have no answer, I am against capital punishment, but understand that collaborators will ultimately pervert the next reincarnation of government. Massive Jail sentences have been tried, the Chinese cultural revolution was a failure, Stalin and Lenin tried as well and seemed for a time to succeed. The problem is that there are so many collaborators even in one’s own family. Every day more are born.

Eric P Charles suggested we are selected to live in groups.. But perhaps we are selected to be Gullible as well. There is a world of difference between the stupid and the ruthless cunning but gullible. He insinuated that a Strong mind would refuse to believe nonsense. I agree but as my father warned me , you could just as easily be rewarded with a bullet between the eyes.

If one examines political party structures in the West these entities should always be distinguished from Garden Clubs by a simple test of Group Perversion.

It seems 99% of North Americans are outside of the Proper Group and either desire entry or desire justice. The poor slobs have been used by the ambitious for millennia, will anything ever change.?

Perpetual Growth, unlimited energy , unlimited military power, unlimited manpower all seem to be current UnBelievable concepts. Without a convincing delusion most Groups would disintegrate.

Human beings are not rational but have a strong belief that they are, because they are chosen by God ; again UnBelievable based on another UnBelievable. If we wish to model human behavior we have dispense with the unbelievable assumption that they are acting in their own best interests, they clearly are not and have never. Some do fit this concept but usually they are at the fringes of society. The UnBelievable ideas almost always stink of some form of self referential circuitous logic.

The model of human societies should never include our own wishful imaginings about ourselves the evidence is plainly before our eyes but blindness obscures our thinking.

There are the pleasant Garden Clubs for orchid fanciers and there are Academic Structures that protect crooks and paedophiles. In fact a person may actually occupy a position in both. I would be intrigued by what that implies…

I was once shocked to learn of such a case while I was still attached to academia. I could not for the life of me understand who it could have gone undetected for so many years. The answer is willful blindness. Objecting to the blindness of others is a very dangerous sport.

The willful blindness was pointed out in a different manner when the FBI itself revealed that a victim must tell his story to 7 people before one will act. I think that comes out to nearly 80% of us, who are functional collaborators. I suspect that 8 out of 10 “Occupy Wall Street “ protestors would happily collaborate with a new regime if given the chance. While some of the issues are legitimate they will be quickly forgotten with some bribe, “Loaves to the masses”

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: November-12-11 1:30 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.