1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)

[Nick Thompson]

As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to realize
that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.  

As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR lingo isnt
category theory lingo.

So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory is one of
those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by the
mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a very
great degree?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])







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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory is one of
> those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by the
> mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a very
> great degree?
>  
Type systems of programming languages (esp. like ML and Haskell) have
roots in category theory.
Also dimensional analysis in physics is a similar but independent
concept.   What does it actually mean to call it rejected?   Could it be
people just moved on to more refined ideas?

Marcus

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[Russell Standish]

Most of the present generation of mathematicians were brought up using
sets, which are more than adequate for most of maths. Category theory
in essence is a generalised notion of sets. Maybe the next generation
of mathematicians will be more comfortable with category theory?

On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 01:48:34PM -0600, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

> Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory is one of
> > those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by the
> > mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a very
> > great degree?
> >  
> Type systems of programming languages (esp. like ML and Haskell) have
> roots in category theory.
> Also dimensional analysis in physics is a similar but independent
> concept.   What does it actually mean to call it rejected?   Could it be
> people just moved on to more refined ideas?
>
> Marcus
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 [hidden email]
Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Phil Henshaw-2]

Interesting observation.  That's rather common in how conversations and
languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones, without the
whole.  In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious.  Natural systems,
biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of prior
constructs left over, bent a bit maybe, used in combination with other bits
of things from other origins maybe.  That's how technologies cross fertilize
too.   The most natural thing around, really.

Phil

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:38 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
> As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to realize
> that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.
>
> As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR lingo
> isnt
> category theory lingo.
>
> So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory is
> one of
> those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by the
> mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a very
> great degree?
>
> N
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University ([hidden email])
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Nick Thompson]

I am not so sanguine about what I think of as word collage.  I know it is
old fashioned, but I am REALLY (now I _am_shouting) committed to the notion
that  the test of communication is how well one has been understood, not
whether one has used the words that make one proud.  

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])




> [Original Message]
> From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Date: 8/9/2008 11:05:57 AM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
> Interesting observation.  That's rather common in how conversations and
> languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones, without
the
> whole.  In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious.  Natural systems,
> biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of prior
> constructs left over, bent a bit maybe, used in combination with other
bits
> of things from other origins maybe.  That's how technologies cross
fertilize

> too.   The most natural thing around, really.
>
> Phil
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:38 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Cc: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> >
> > As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to realize
> > that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.
> >
> > As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR lingo
> > isnt
> > category theory lingo.
> >
> > So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory is
> > one of
> > those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by the
> > mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a very
> > great degree?
> >
> > N
> >
> > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > Clark University ([hidden email])
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Phil Henshaw-2]

Word collage??   I don't think what my mom would do in the 60's in our
church ladies group, making collages with colored magazine clippings, pretty
things to arrange, is how nature scavenges wastes and turns them into it's
most valued resources...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:58 PM
> To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
> I am not so sanguine about what I think of as word collage.  I know it
> is
> old fashioned, but I am REALLY (now I _am_shouting) committed to the
> notion
> that  the test of communication is how well one has been understood,
> not
> whether one has used the words that make one proud.
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University ([hidden email])
>
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied
> Complexity
> Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> > Cc: <[hidden email]>
> > Date: 8/9/2008 11:05:57 AM
> > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> >
> > Interesting observation.  That's rather common in how conversations
> and
> > languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones,
> without
> the
> > whole.  In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious.  Natural
> systems,
> > biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of prior
> > constructs left over, bent a bit maybe, used in combination with
> other
> bits
> > of things from other origins maybe.  That's how technologies cross
> fertilize
> > too.   The most natural thing around, really.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:38 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Cc: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> > >
> > > As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to
> realize
> > > that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.
> > >
> > > As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR
> lingo
> > > isnt
> > > category theory lingo.
> > >
> > > So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory
> is
> > > one of
> > > those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by
> the
> > > mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a
> very
> > > great degree?
> > >
> > > N
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > > Clark University ([hidden email])
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Nick Thompson]

All,

Collage is a valid artform just _because_ it juxtaposes images in a manner
that is unsettling ... raises questions about connections.  In a verbal
medium, poetry can  play a similar role.  But in the world of exposition,
"collage" is a pejorative for me.   Communication of ideas between people
is a true rarity ... a treasure.  Any time one ask others to listen to
one's ideas, one is obligated to make EVERY effort to be clear.  I think
there is altogether too much word-collage going on in computerland ...
people comfusing marketing with actual communication.  And too much writing
is done by people who seem to think that others have an obligation to read.


Yeah, I know, if ever a pot called a kettle, "black", it is me  with my
voluminous email messages.  There is that OTHER function of writing:
creating an internal dialectic by which to clarifiy one's own ideas.  
[sigh]  Thus,  in the [failed] effort to become clear on something, I am
inclined to sacrifice my readers.  

Just know that  your sacrifice is made in a noble cause.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])




> [Original Message]
> From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Date: 8/10/2008 5:46:46 AM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
> Word collage??   I don't think what my mom would do in the 60's in our
> church ladies group, making collages with colored magazine clippings,
pretty

> things to arrange, is how nature scavenges wastes and turns them into it's
> most valued resources...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:58 PM
> > To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > Cc: [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> >
> > I am not so sanguine about what I think of as word collage.  I know it
> > is
> > old fashioned, but I am REALLY (now I _am_shouting) committed to the
> > notion
> > that  the test of communication is how well one has been understood,
> > not
> > whether one has used the words that make one proud.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > Clark University ([hidden email])
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> > > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied
> > Complexity
> > Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> > > Cc: <[hidden email]>
> > > Date: 8/9/2008 11:05:57 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> > >
> > > Interesting observation.  That's rather common in how conversations
> > and
> > > languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones,
> > without
> > the
> > > whole.  In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious.  Natural
> > systems,
> > > biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of prior
> > > constructs left over, bent a bit maybe, used in combination with
> > other
> > bits
> > > of things from other origins maybe.  That's how technologies cross
> > fertilize
> > > too.   The most natural thing around, really.
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > On
> > > > Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:38 PM
> > > > To: [hidden email]
> > > > Cc: [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> > > >
> > > > As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to
> > realize
> > > > that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.
> > > >
> > > > As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR
> > lingo
> > > > isnt
> > > > category theory lingo.
> > > >
> > > > So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category Theory
> > is
> > > > one of
> > > > those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected by
> > the
> > > > mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to a
> > very
> > > > great degree?
> > > >
> > > > N
> > > >
> > > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > > > Clark University ([hidden email])
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============================================================
> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Phil Henshaw-2]

Right, nature's method of using junk left over from the past is much better
described as 'scavanging' than as 'collage'.   Complex systems exploit their
environments by discovering advantageous uses for what's lying around
unused, and no, not by arranging them in pretty patterns to gaze at from a
distance.   When your misunderstanding of another scientists assertions
tempts you to use a broad brush dismissal of the questions they raise, how
about digging for an good question rather than giving in to temptation...
;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:39 PM
> To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
> All,
>
> Collage is a valid artform just _because_ it juxtaposes images in a
> manner
> that is unsettling ... raises questions about connections.  In a verbal
> medium, poetry can  play a similar role.  But in the world of
> exposition,
> "collage" is a pejorative for me.   Communication of ideas between
> people
> is a true rarity ... a treasure.  Any time one ask others to listen to
> one's ideas, one is obligated to make EVERY effort to be clear.  I
> think
> there is altogether too much word-collage going on in computerland ...
> people comfusing marketing with actual communication.  And too much
> writing
> is done by people who seem to think that others have an obligation to
> read.
>
>
> Yeah, I know, if ever a pot called a kettle, "black", it is me  with my
> voluminous email messages.  There is that OTHER function of writing:
> creating an internal dialectic by which to clarifiy one's own ideas.
> [sigh]  Thus,  in the [failed] effort to become clear on something, I
> am
> inclined to sacrifice my readers.
>
> Just know that  your sacrifice is made in a noble cause.
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University ([hidden email])
>
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied
> Complexity
> Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> > Cc: <[hidden email]>
> > Date: 8/10/2008 5:46:46 AM
> > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> >
> > Word collage??   I don't think what my mom would do in the 60's in
> our
> > church ladies group, making collages with colored magazine clippings,
> pretty
> > things to arrange, is how nature scavenges wastes and turns them into
> it's
> > most valued resources...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:58 PM
> > > To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group
> > > Cc: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> > >
> > > I am not so sanguine about what I think of as word collage.  I know
> it
> > > is
> > > old fashioned, but I am REALLY (now I _am_shouting) committed to
> the
> > > notion
> > > that  the test of communication is how well one has been
> understood,
> > > not
> > > whether one has used the words that make one proud.
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > > Clark University ([hidden email])
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: Phil Henshaw <[hidden email]>
> > > > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied
> > > Complexity
> > > Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> > > > Cc: <[hidden email]>
> > > > Date: 8/9/2008 11:05:57 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G.
> Daniels)
> > > >
> > > > Interesting observation.  That's rather common in how
> conversations
> > > and
> > > > languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones,
> > > without
> > > the
> > > > whole.  In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious.  Natural
> > > systems,
> > > > biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of
> prior
> > > > constructs left over, bent a bit maybe, used in combination with
> > > other
> > > bits
> > > > of things from other origins maybe.  That's how technologies
> cross
> > > fertilize
> > > > too.   The most natural thing around, really.
> > > >
> > > > Phil
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:friam-
> [hidden email]]
> > > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:38 PM
> > > > > To: [hidden email]
> > > > > Cc: [hidden email]
> > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> > > > >
> > > > > As I continue to struggle, page by page, with Rosen, I begin to
> > > realize
> > > > > that much of his LINGO is category theory LINGO.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I read Daniels and Riopella below, I wonder if much of THEIR
> > > lingo
> > > > > isnt
> > > > > category theory lingo.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, I am beginning to wonder, is it possible that Category
> Theory
> > > is
> > > > > one of
> > > > > those intellectual developments that has been roundly rejected
> by
> > > the
> > > > > mainstream, but whose language has crept into the mainstream to
> a
> > > very
> > > > > great degree?
> > > > >
> > > > > N
> > > > >
> > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > > > > Clark University ([hidden email])
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Kenneth Lloyd]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 8:39 PM
> To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
> <snip>
> Just know that  your sacrifice is made in a noble cause.
>
> Nick

Nick,

Just know that, likewise, your sacrifices are made in a "no bull clause" ;)

Ken


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org