words RE: words
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Just finished Thomas K. Disch's, Camp Concentration, first published in 1968 . Very dystopian future. My pleasure reading ti came from the dozens, perhaps as many as 100, words encountered for the first time. Unusual, obscure, sometimes archaic, (e.g. orthoepy) and yet the author put these words into the mouth of the narrator in a seamless, organic, manner — the words were necessary to convey the precise, nuanced, narrative.
Hours later I was reading the words," toilette spoelt automatique," above a urinal. I was wondering if "spoelt" might derive from a root common to the English word, 'spill'. it does not - spoelt = flushes. (Spill = morsen.) Before I made myself aware of the facts, I spent some time idly wondering about the circumstances and contexts in which the two words "spill/flush" might be used as synonyms despite the fact that the former word is usually far less lethargic than the latter. I mentally pictured a Venn diagram with significant overlap but with definite areas/contexts where only one word or the other could possibly convey desired precision or nuance. On the heels of that musing, a recent FRIAM discussion about vocabulary came to mind. The question was raised about whether or not "big" words were used simply to demonstrate how erudite one was. (I first encountered that word in the 1950s on "Make Room for Daddy" aka The Danny Thomas Show; to describe a learned uncle and I decided I want to be that.) My own observations of the list would suggest that such mean spirited use of vocabulary is quite rare. Vocabulary is a vehicle for conveying exact meaning — to the extent that meaning can be either 'exact' or 'communicated'. And yet there is a very definite 'Yin-Yang' stylistic difference observable in the conversation. Most participants seem to be grounded in the Yang style inherited from the rationalism of Descartes and scientism of Bacon and use vocabulary as a means for finding precision and accuracy. Others [yes you Nick, despite how you cringe at the characterization] reflect the Yin of hermeneuticism with a soupcon of post-modernism. And this, perhaps, explains Nick's simultaneous fascination and frustration with FRIAM — a well meaning group willing to explore a lot of different topics and the means to communicate a shared understanding of those topics, using the 'best' vocabulary to do so. Alas, too often, communication and understanding falter between the accuracy bias of Charybdis and the metaphor bias of Scylla. davewest ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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David, I am only frustrated because I think FRIAMMERS hold the keys to the universe won't explicate them in metaphors that I can understand. So, imagine yourself talking to a group of boy (girl-) scouts. You have just demonstrated to them the phenomenon of Cellular Automaton #30 (or whatever) bursting into seething dog vomit at iteration 10,601 (or whatever) (or bursting out of seething dog vomit into grand pyramids of pyramids, ad infinitum, whatEVER!). One of the scouts asks, “Professor Dave, why did that happen then?” And once you have explained that to them, please explain to them how that explanation is not an adequate explanation of consciousness. The last time I pressed this question on the list, Lee answered with the following Kaon God:creation::fish:water which I took to mean, that you are all Gods who do not know (and therefore cannot explicate) your own powers. I.e., God:creation::fish:water:computer_scientists::emergence After you answer those questions, I promise not to be frustrated, ever again. Deal? Nick Shhhhhh! Nick has finally gone bonkers. Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- Just finished Thomas K. Disch's, Camp Concentration, first published in 1968 . Very dystopian future. My pleasure reading ti came from the dozens, perhaps as many as 100, words encountered for the first time. Unusual, obscure, sometimes archaic, (e.g. orthoepy) and yet the author put these words into the mouth of the narrator in a seamless, organic, manner — the words were necessary to convey the precise, nuanced, narrative. Hours later I was reading the words," toilette spoelt automatique," above a urinal. I was wondering if "spoelt" might derive from a root common to the English word, 'spill'. it does not - spoelt = flushes. (Spill = morsen.) Before I made myself aware of the facts, I spent some time idly wondering about the circumstances and contexts in which the two words "spill/flush" might be used as synonyms despite the fact that the former word is usually far less lethargic than the latter. I mentally pictured a Venn diagram with significant overlap but with definite areas/contexts where only one word or the other could possibly convey desired precision or nuance. On the heels of that musing, a recent FRIAM discussion about vocabulary came to mind. The question was raised about whether or not "big" words were used simply to demonstrate how erudite one was. (I first encountered that word in the 1950s on "Make Room for Daddy" aka The Danny Thomas Show; to describe a learned uncle and I decided I want to be that.) My own observations of the list would suggest that such mean spirited use of vocabulary is quite rare. Vocabulary is a vehicle for conveying exact meaning — to the extent that meaning can be either 'exact' or 'communicated'. And yet there is a very definite 'Yin-Yang' stylistic difference observable in the conversation. Most participants seem to be grounded in the Yang style inherited from the rationalism of Descartes and scientism of Bacon and use vocabulary as a means for finding precision and accuracy. Others [yes you Nick, despite how you cringe at the characterization] reflect the Yin of hermeneuticism with a soupcon of post-modernism. And this, perhaps, explains Nick's simultaneous fascination and frustration with FRIAM — a well meaning group willing to explore a lot of different topics and the means to communicate a shared understanding of those topics, using the 'best' vocabulary to do so. Alas, too often, communication and understanding falter between the accuracy bias of Charybdis and the metaphor bias of Scylla. davewest ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
Addendum to the narrative below: I suggested that 'spill' and 'flush' were, sort of, synonyms. That is wrong. They are actually good metaphors for each other. If you understand 'spill' for instance, the term suggests a number of referents (in this case, definitional/usage variants) that are confirmed in 'flush' and that increases your understanding of the latter. The excluded parts of the Venn diagram prevent them from becoming true lexical synonyms.
davew On Sun, May 5, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Prof David West wrote: > Just finished Thomas K. Disch's, Camp Concentration, first published in > 1968 . Very dystopian future. My pleasure reading ti came from the > dozens, perhaps as many as 100, words encountered for the first time. > Unusual, obscure, sometimes archaic, (e.g. orthoepy) and yet the author > put these words into the mouth of the narrator in a seamless, organic, > manner — the words were necessary to convey the precise, nuanced, > narrative. > > Hours later I was reading the words," toilette spoelt automatique," > above a urinal. I was wondering if "spoelt" might derive from a root > common to the English word, 'spill'. it does not - spoelt = flushes. > (Spill = morsen.) Before I made myself aware of the facts, I spent some > time idly wondering about the circumstances and contexts in which the > two words "spill/flush" might be used as synonyms despite the fact that > the former word is usually far less lethargic than the latter. I > mentally pictured a Venn diagram with significant overlap but with > definite areas/contexts where only one word or the other could possibly > convey desired precision or nuance. > > On the heels of that musing, a recent FRIAM discussion about vocabulary > came to mind. The question was raised about whether or not "big" words > were used simply to demonstrate how erudite one was. (I first > encountered that word in the 1950s on "Make Room for Daddy" aka The > Danny Thomas Show; to describe a learned uncle and I decided I want to > be that.) My own observations of the list would suggest that such mean > spirited use of vocabulary is quite rare. > > Vocabulary is a vehicle for conveying exact meaning — to the extent > that meaning can be either 'exact' or 'communicated'. And yet there is > a very definite 'Yin-Yang' stylistic difference observable in the > conversation. > > Most participants seem to be grounded in the Yang style inherited from > the rationalism of Descartes and scientism of Bacon and use vocabulary > as a means for finding precision and accuracy. Others [yes you Nick, > despite how you cringe at the characterization] reflect the Yin of > hermeneuticism with a soupcon of post-modernism. > > And this, perhaps, explains Nick's simultaneous fascination and > frustration with FRIAM — a well meaning group willing to explore a lot > of different topics and the means to communicate a shared understanding > of those topics, using the 'best' vocabulary to do so. > > Alas, too often, communication and understanding falter between the > accuracy bias of Charybdis and the metaphor bias of Scylla. > > davewest > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I know you directed the post to Dave. Obviously, you weren't talking to me. 8^) But I will again demonstrate my lack of manners and interrupt, anyway.
It's common to denigrate those who answer questions with questions. But my response to the scout would be: "Well, what did you EXPECT to happen?" Give a man a fish ... yadda yadda. On 5/5/19 10:53 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So, imagine yourself talking to a group of boy (girl-) scouts. You have just demonstrated to them the phenomenon of Cellular Automaton #30 (or whatever) bursting into seething dog vomit at iteration 10,601 (or whatever) (or bursting out of seething dog vomit into grand pyramids of pyramids, ad infinitum, what*/EVER!/*). One of the scouts asks, “Professor Dave, why did that happen then?” And once you have explained that to them, please explain to them how that explanation is not an adequate explanation of consciousness. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Oh, Glen,
That "scout" was talking to the who-o-o-le list. Answering a question with a question is the old psychologist's trick, a fair tactic when you think the respondent, like the slave boy, already contains the answer within him. But this slave-boy, this scout, whatever, don't know nuthin'. All he knows is that he didn't expect THAT! Not THEN! I wish Lee would answer. I took his point to be that you-guys (and you ==>are<== all guys) are so immersed in emergence (emerged in immersance?) that you have lost sight of it. Wolfram wrote the book on emergence, but he did not translate it for the defrocked English major. Glen, your manners are impeccable. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 9:52 AM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words I know you directed the post to Dave. Obviously, you weren't talking to me. 8^) But I will again demonstrate my lack of manners and interrupt, anyway. It's common to denigrate those who answer questions with questions. But my response to the scout would be: "Well, what did you EXPECT to happen?" Give a man a fish ... yadda yadda. On 5/5/19 10:53 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > So, imagine yourself talking to a group of boy (girl-) scouts. You have just demonstrated to them the phenomenon of Cellular Automaton #30 (or whatever) bursting into seething dog vomit at iteration 10,601 (or whatever) (or bursting out of seething dog vomit into grand pyramids of pyramids, ad infinitum, what*/EVER!/*). One of the scouts asks, “Professor Dave, why did that happen then?” And once you have explained that to them, please explain to them how that explanation is not an adequate explanation of consciousness. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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But that simply can't be true. The scout *does* know something ... lots of things, many of which are innate, for example binocular vision. When the scout asks "Why did THAT happen?", they are asking something about what they're seeing. When they ask "Why did it happen THEN?", they're asking something about the passage of time and the speed of which the thing they see changed.
To say their questions are completely uninformed makes an answer to your question impossible. It makes any explanation impossible because explanations always rely on a foundation of some current understanding ... even if you end up having to break some prior intuition/understanding in order to get to the larger understanding. Sometimes answering by asking "What THAT are you talking about?" is a good way to teach them how to fish. On 5/7/19 9:16 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > this scout, whatever, don't know nuthin'. All he knows is that he didn't expect THAT! Not THEN! -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Okay.
Given that my question about programming and emergence is a lifeless, flatulent piece of crap ... conceding ALL of that .. how would you breathe life into it? Thanks, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 10:35 AM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words But that simply can't be true. The scout *does* know something ... lots of things, many of which are innate, for example binocular vision. When the scout asks "Why did THAT happen?", they are asking something about what they're seeing. When they ask "Why did it happen THEN?", they're asking something about the passage of time and the speed of which the thing they see changed. To say their questions are completely uninformed makes an answer to your question impossible. It makes any explanation impossible because explanations always rely on a foundation of some current understanding ... even if you end up having to break some prior intuition/understanding in order to get to the larger understanding. Sometimes answering by asking "What THAT are you talking about?" is a good way to teach them how to fish. On 5/7/19 9:16 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > this scout, whatever, don't know nuthin'. All he knows is that he didn't expect THAT! Not THEN! -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I would talk about analog computers, not digital ones. But I don't intend to rely on any persnickety concept of "computing". So, it might be better to talk about any physical system that produces counter-intuitive results. I suppose the question is what type of physical system would help target "emergence" best?
I don't know... I built a Lorenz wheel that behaved in unexpected ways. Jigsaw puzzles are interesting tools for getting close to the idea that the parts and their arrangements both do and don't contribute to the final product. Spiro-graph is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph You can buy sets of aperiodic tiles. Etc. It all depends on what it is you think you're trying to understand, I guess. On 5/7/19 10:38 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Given that my question about programming and emergence is a lifeless, flatulent piece of crap ... conceding ALL of that .. how would you breathe life into it? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Glen, You see, this conversation just confirms me in my belief that you-guys have lost touch with just how remarkable your craft is. As I think Lee would say (dammit, Lee, where are you?), don't ask a fish about water; he knows nothing of it. What's the miracle of epigenesis? E uno pluris. We start with one thing, we make a few exact copies of it, and then, all of a sudden, we are making different things, tissues, organs, etc. We are surprised when uniformity generates variety. What’s the miracle of organisms? E pluribus unum. When the lion charges us on the Veldt, we face a huge collection of cells that somehow manages to act as a very concerted whole. We are surprised when variety coalesces into uniformity. Both phenomena are amply presented in the pages of Wolfram. Every day you go to work, you make both of these things happen on your screen. And yet you are not amazed by it? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- I would talk about analog computers, not digital ones. But I don't intend to rely on any persnickety concept of "computing". So, it might be better to talk about any physical system that produces counter-intuitive results. I suppose the question is what type of physical system would help target "emergence" best? I don't know... I built a Lorenz wheel that behaved in unexpected ways. Jigsaw puzzles are interesting tools for getting close to the idea that the parts and their arrangements both do and don't contribute to the final product. Spiro-graph is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph You can buy sets of aperiodic tiles. Etc. It all depends on what it is you think you're trying to understand, I guess. On 5/7/19 10:38 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Given that my question about programming and emergence is a lifeless, flatulent piece of crap ... conceding ALL of that .. how would you breathe life into it? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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IDK, man. I look at what my uncle does with his welding and woodworking and I'm amazed. He doesn't really even draft it out... just a few napkin sketches with some inches and feet and poof! there's a steel trailer you can haul your motorcycle on ... at freeway speeds.
I'm not amazed by CAs because I've *played* with them for hundreds of hours ... maybe even thousands of hours ... I have no idea at this point. It's difficult for me believe people who play hundreds of hours with anything could be regarded as "remarkable in their craft" ... except in the sense of stubbornness, perversity, or somesuch like that. On 5/7/19 11:28 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > You see, this conversation just confirms me in my belief that you-guys have lost touch with just how remarkable your craft is. > > > > As I think Lee would say (dammit, Lee, where are you?), don't ask a fish about water; he knows nothing of it. > > > > What's the miracle of epigenesis? /E uno pluris/. We start with one thing, we make a few exact copies of it, and then, all of a sudden, we are making different things, tissues, organs, etc. We are surprised when uniformity generates variety. What’s the miracle of organisms? /E pluribus unum/. When the lion charges us on the Veldt, we face a huge collection of cells that somehow manages to act as a very concerted whole. We are surprised when variety coalesces into uniformity. > > > > Both phenomena are amply presented in the pages of Wolfram. Every day you go to work, you make both of these things happen on your screen. And yet you are not amazed by it? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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"Familiarity extinguishes emergence" - G. Ropella, 2019
Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 12:39 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words IDK, man. I look at what my uncle does with his welding and woodworking and I'm amazed. He doesn't really even draft it out... just a few napkin sketches with some inches and feet and poof! there's a steel trailer you can haul your motorcycle on ... at freeway speeds. I'm not amazed by CAs because I've *played* with them for hundreds of hours ... maybe even thousands of hours ... I have no idea at this point. It's difficult for me believe people who play hundreds of hours with anything could be regarded as "remarkable in their craft" ... except in the sense of stubbornness, perversity, or somesuch like that. On 5/7/19 11:28 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > You see, this conversation just confirms me in my belief that you-guys > have lost touch with just how remarkable your craft is. > > > > As I think Lee would say (dammit, Lee, where are you?), don't ask a > fish about water; he knows nothing of it. > > > > What's the miracle of epigenesis? /E uno pluris/. We start with one > thing, we make a few exact copies of it, and then, all of a sudden, we are making different things, tissues, organs, etc. We are surprised when uniformity generates variety. What’s the miracle of organisms? /E pluribus unum/. When the lion charges us on the Veldt, we face a huge collection of cells that somehow manages to act as a very concerted whole. We are surprised when variety coalesces into uniformity. > > > > Both phenomena are amply presented in the pages of Wolfram. Every day > you go to work, you make both of these things happen on your screen. And yet you are not amazed by it? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Ha! There's no way I would ever say that. I might say familiarity reduces amazement, though.
On 5/7/19 12:20 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > "Familiarity extinguishes emergence" - G. Ropella, 2019 -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Ok, then.
Are the sudden shifts in the Wolfram CA's cases of emergence? N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 1:25 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words Ha! There's no way I would ever say that. I might say familiarity reduces amazement, though. On 5/7/19 12:20 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > "Familiarity extinguishes emergence" - G. Ropella, 2019 -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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There are many different definitions of emergence. I prefer not to use that word at all. I prefer to distinguish the generators from the phenomena and talk about the properties of the gen-phen map.
No matter how simple or complex the pattern is on the 2D plot, there's a gen-phen map at work. If there is emergence involved in *any* of the phenomena you see (including all off or all on cells), then there's emergence in *all* the patterns you see. I.e. *every* state change would be "emergent" even if you think it's boring. On 5/7/19 12:27 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Ok, then. > > Are the sudden shifts in the Wolfram CA's cases of emergence? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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"Emergence is in the eye of the beholder." G. Ropella, 2019
Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 1:32 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words There are many different definitions of emergence. I prefer not to use that word at all. I prefer to distinguish the generators from the phenomena and talk about the properties of the gen-phen map. No matter how simple or complex the pattern is on the 2D plot, there's a gen-phen map at work. If there is emergence involved in *any* of the phenomena you see (including all off or all on cells), then there's emergence in *all* the patterns you see. I.e. *every* state change would be "emergent" even if you think it's boring. On 5/7/19 12:27 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Ok, then. > > Are the sudden shifts in the Wolfram CA's cases of emergence? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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No. Again, I would never say that. Why are you interacting this way? What are you trying to achieve by attributing things to me that I didn't write?
On 5/7/19 12:36 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > "Emergence is in the eye of the beholder." G. Ropella, 2019 -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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To the outside observer, a ping pong game has emerged. ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Tue, May 7, 2019, 1:38 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote: No. Again, I would never say that. Why are you interacting this way? What are you trying to achieve by attributing things to me that I didn't write? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Ping-Pong is a symmetric game. Bullshit is asymmetric. It's easier for Nick to lie about what I've said than it is for me to combat those lies.
On 5/7/19 12:43 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > To the outside observer, a ping pong game has emerged. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by gepr
To me it looks like trolling Glen https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling -Jochen -------- Original message -------- From: uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> Date: 5/7/19 21:38 (GMT+01:00) To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words On 5/7/19 12:36 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > "Emergence is in the eye of the beholder." G. Ropella, 2019 -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I'd call them phase transitions.
On 5/7/19, 1:27 PM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: Ok, then. Are the sudden shifts in the Wolfram CA's cases of emergence? N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 1:25 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words RE: words Ha! There's no way I would ever say that. I might say familiarity reduces amazement, though. On 5/7/19 12:20 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > "Familiarity extinguishes emergence" - G. Ropella, 2019 -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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