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why some people hate cops

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gepr

why some people hate cops

I really enjoyed this book when I read it:

Newton's Gift: How Sir Isaac Newton Unlocked the System of the World
https://bookshop.org/books/newton-s-gift-how-sir-isaac-newton-unlocked-the-system-of-the-world/9780743217767

Then when I found out the author was (is?) a renowned Intelligent Designer, I was *embarrassed* for liking his book. I kept the book on my shelves for at least a decade to remind myself of the feeling. Whether my embarrassment is reasonable or not is irrelevant, though. There's a problem promulgating any kind of information that may lead people down the wrong reason-chain. We are stupid and irrational.

However, this next video is, hands down, the best explanation for why I and many of the people I know distrust cops. It's unfortunate that he believes the nonsense that is Christianity ... worse yet, that he converted from atheism to Christianity. Bah, I guess we're all "large" and contradict ourselves. Aside from all the crypto-preaching, the core content is spot on:

Why Some People Hate Cops (An Ex-Con Explains)
https://youtu.be/TnD5lS-rHJY

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: why some people hate cops

He wastes quite a lot of time talking about himself, and I guess I lost interest. His array of theology books also turned me off. Is there a condensed version? Somehow he carries on about this for an hour! I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 7:50 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I really enjoyed this book when I read it:

Newton's Gift: How Sir Isaac Newton Unlocked the System of the World
https://bookshop.org/books/newton-s-gift-how-sir-isaac-newton-unlocked-the-system-of-the-world/9780743217767

Then when I found out the author was (is?) a renowned Intelligent Designer, I was *embarrassed* for liking his book. I kept the book on my shelves for at least a decade to remind myself of the feeling. Whether my embarrassment is reasonable or not is irrelevant, though. There's a problem promulgating any kind of information that may lead people down the wrong reason-chain. We are stupid and irrational.

However, this next video is, hands down, the best explanation for why I and many of the people I know distrust cops. It's unfortunate that he believes the nonsense that is Christianity ... worse yet, that he converted from atheism to Christianity. Bah, I guess we're all "large" and contradict ourselves. Aside from all the crypto-preaching, the core content is spot on:

Why Some People Hate Cops (An Ex-Con Explains) https://youtu.be/TnD5lS-rHJY

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David Eric Smith

Re: why some people hate cops

> On Sep 24, 2020, at 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

Defrock the police?

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 7:50 AM
> To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops
>
>
> I really enjoyed this book when I read it:
>
> Newton's Gift: How Sir Isaac Newton Unlocked the System of the World
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbookshop.org%2fbooks%2fnewton-s-gift-how-sir-isaac-newton-unlocked-the-system-of-the-world%2f9780743217767&c=E,1,Xs6XNCShnPlv7L3P_11x1pChKjciVM9HT8dLtAfmg9YFnd--idiCrGAFb3XYmDstXx7vglnl3OLucI7_eVE0l4GsUrknuH2aDAvwhwl_0w,,&typo=1
>
> Then when I found out the author was (is?) a renowned Intelligent Designer, I was *embarrassed* for liking his book. I kept the book on my shelves for at least a decade to remind myself of the feeling. Whether my embarrassment is reasonable or not is irrelevant, though. There's a problem promulgating any kind of information that may lead people down the wrong reason-chain. We are stupid and irrational.
>
> However, this next video is, hands down, the best explanation for why I and many of the people I know distrust cops. It's unfortunate that he believes the nonsense that is Christianity ... worse yet, that he converted from atheism to Christianity. Bah, I guess we're all "large" and contradict ourselves. Aside from all the crypto-preaching, the core content is spot on:
>
> Why Some People Hate Cops (An Ex-Con Explains) https://youtu.be/TnD5lS-rHJY
>
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gepr

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

LoL! Thanks for that. Yes, the gist is that when one is unwillingly [⛧] subjugated to the whims of jerks, that event (and the agents behind it) stand out prominently in one's mind until you die. And even after you die, if you're a member of a community, that subjugation can be "remembered" by the community. Hence, the jerk cops stand out and are remembered while any happenstance non-jerk cop one encounters do not.

Moreover, a system that doesn't work *hard enough* to limit the presence and effect of the jerk cops foments even more remembering of the jerk cops. This is, to me, another form of "policing one's group". If the jerk cops are tolerated by the non-jerk cops, even in the slightest thing like grabbing your cell phone for no reason, then you and your community will be *more* likely to hate cops.

As an addendum, he points out that even if a jerk cop isn't racist, if the jerk cop has a different color skin than you do, you're more likely to remember that. This seems to treat the "I'm not racist" issue nicely.

He says somewhere in the video that he's not talking about "systemic racism". But I think that's only because he hasn't thought enough about systemic racism.

Sorry for wasting time. I watched/listened it during my calisthenics this morning ... so the only loss I suffered was opportunity cost for the stuff I could have had playing.

p.s. The guy clearly suffers from mental illness. I feel kinda bad for making fun of his Christianity.

On 9/24/20 10:08 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> He wastes quite a lot of time talking about himself, and I guess I lost interest. His array of theology books also turned me off. Is there a condensed version? Somehow he carries on about this for an hour! I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 7:50 AM
> To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops
>
>
> [...]
> However, this next video is, hands down, the best explanation for why I and many of the people I know distrust cops. It's unfortunate that he believes the nonsense that is Christianity ... worse yet, that he converted from atheism to Christianity. Bah, I guess we're all "large" and contradict ourselves. Aside from all the crypto-preaching, the core content is spot on:
>
> Why Some People Hate Cops (An Ex-Con Explains) https://youtu.be/TnD5lS-rHJY

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gepr

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

I know that's a joke. But it would go a looooooonnnnnnggggg way to repairing the relationship between cops and their communities if they would take off their uniforms ... not to mention their military gear ... maybe just leave their Batman belts in the car?

On 9/24/20 10:27 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> On Sep 24, 2020, at 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.
>
> Defrock the police?

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Stephen Guerin-5

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus writes:

I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?

As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.

Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.

The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.

Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

-Stephen

_______________________________________________________________________
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gepr

Re: why some people hate cops

Of course, it's fair to take text literally without reading *through* it. But given our rather incessant hand-wringing about metaphor on this list, I think it's fair to read "hate" figuratively, especially here. Marcus doesn't hate religious people. He probably doesn't even hate cops. If anything, the blame rests on me for using it in the Subject, even if my excuse is the original poster used it in the title of his video. That said, it's fair to discuss "safe spaces". I believe in them and that they're a good thing. But this list is not a safe space. We've discussed triggers quite a bit. I trigger a LOT! 8^D But I kinda regard that as a good thing. Only a psychopath is immune to triggers.

FWIW, I'd enjoy a discussion of science vs religion. We dance around it all the time. May as well target it directly.

On 9/24/20 11:15 AM, Stephen Guerin wrote:

> Marcus writes:
>
> I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.
>
>
> As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?
>
> As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.
>
> Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.
>
> The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.
>
> Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

I am not an observant "religious person" but I am a student of religions. For example, I find Karen Armstrong's book "A History of God" fascinating. It is a history of the Abrahamic faith traditions. My wife is Jewish, my daughter is an Evangelical Christian, my granddaughter is a Muslim but that doesn't count much yet since she is only three. I find value in all of these.

I have a cousin, John Wimberly, who is a Presbyterian minister. His church was near the Department of State in DC. He is now retired and works at the Alban Institute (qv). He has a PhD from Wisconsin and an MBA from Georgetown. I will invite him to a physical Friam if he ever comes to Santa Fe. He has a winter home in Mexico. His sermons are great in that he minimizes the divine and talks about the reality of what was happening in the gospels. His version of the water to wine story is fascinating.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 12:16 PM Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus writes:
I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?

As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.

Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.

The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.

Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

-Stephen
_______________________________________________________________________
[hidden email]
CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable
zoom.com/j/5055775828
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George Duncan-2

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

I am in accord with Stephen's remarks. Though I do think some engage in hyperbole without really meaning what they say, we have far too much hate in this world. Also, the broad use of the term "cops" and "religious persons" is inappropriate in this forum. Specificially I might or might not consider myself to be a religious person since I am member of the United Church of Christ here in Santa Fe and have been active with Beit Midrash at Temple Beth Shalom. Should I now consider myself hated?

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus writes:
I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?

As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.

Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.

The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.

Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

-Stephen
_______________________________________________________________________
[hidden email]
CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable
zoom.com/j/5055775828
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: why some people hate cops

My parents are UCC members. Not that I would think anyone would or should care. I wouldn’t tell people about visiting a shrink if I were to do that, why do people tell me about their mental health maintenance organizations? Oh my dog, I used the word “hate”. I do worry when people start to think in terms of saviors like Q-Anon, or Jesus, or Muhammad, or whatever. Adopting religion is a voluntary adoption of a set of ideas. It is not like being black, modulo other discussions we occasionally have on this list about free will. To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of George Duncan
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 11:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Cc: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus writes:

I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?

As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.

Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.

The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.

Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

-Stephen

_______________________________________________________________________
[hidden email]

CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828

twitter: @simtable

zoom.com/j/5055775828

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gepr

Re: why some people hate cops

I was recently triggered by what I thought was a disparaging comment from EricC about the recent attempt to redefine "racism" so as to (primarily) refer to systemic racism. The idea, I think, is that a minority can't be called "racist" because the majority has overwhelming control over the system in which they live. After asking a clarifying question (as I *always* have to do with EricC! >8^D), he elaborated that it's unreasonable to *expect* everyone to know that the definition has changed. Confusion will mount because language is fluid, ambiguity exists, definitions change, not all people are the same, etc.

But there's depth to the discussion. Religious people have been in near TOTAL control of our world for a very very long time. Even today, atheists are nearly unelectable. If it weren't for some fluidity in the market of different religions, that control would be total. Part of why I like jokes like the Discordians and Flying Spaghetti Monster (and more deeply the Satanic Temple) is because they compete in that ridiculous market. To accuse a minority of hate speech against a majority is a little off-kilter, to me. It may be literally appropriate. But it misses the nuance of the conversation.

On 9/24/20 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: why some people hate cops

In your example of migrating zero and non-zero terms in the infinite expression of all things: As the correlations become more massive I start thinking let's replace that with a representative agent; let's compress that mess of proliferation back down to one thing. Religion is a virus and a fundamental cause of that mess of proliferation. All we've come up with in this country so far is to make them tolerate each other, no thanks to the best efforts of Bill Barr and so on. I would say it is slightly pleasing how they tend to eat each other. But man it is an expensive soap opera to produce.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 12:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I was recently triggered by what I thought was a disparaging comment from EricC about the recent attempt to redefine "racism" so as to (primarily) refer to systemic racism. The idea, I think, is that a minority can't be called "racist" because the majority has overwhelming control over the system in which they live. After asking a clarifying question (as I *always* have to do with EricC! >8^D), he elaborated that it's unreasonable to *expect* everyone to know that the definition has changed. Confusion will mount because language is fluid, ambiguity exists, definitions change, not all people are the same, etc.

But there's depth to the discussion. Religious people have been in near TOTAL control of our world for a very very long time. Even today, atheists are nearly unelectable. If it weren't for some fluidity in the market of different religions, that control would be total. Part of why I like jokes like the Discordians and Flying Spaghetti Monster (and more deeply the Satanic Temple) is because they compete in that ridiculous market. To accuse a minority of hate speech against a majority is a little off-kilter, to me. It may be literally appropriate. But it misses the nuance of the conversation.

On 9/24/20 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

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gepr

Re: why some people hate cops

Excellent! So, the idea is to place a higher order operator in amongst the lower order operators over which the higher order one operates, thereby making the expression impredicative. Damnit, there's a name for sentences like that ... not merely recursive or iterative. I can't remember it, though. "Reflective" maybe?

Ordinarily, I'd argue that such loopy definitions aren't extraordinarily expensive. I tend to think it's necessary for what we normally think of as "alive" or "conscious". But I suppose there are pathological cases, neuroses, or OCD, where the reflection swamps the rest of the machine.

On 9/24/20 12:25 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> In your example of migrating zero and non-zero terms in the infinite expression of all things: As the correlations become more massive I start thinking let's replace that with a representative agent; let's compress that mess of proliferation back down to one thing. Religion is a virus and a fundamental cause of that mess of proliferation. All we've come up with in this country so far is to make them tolerate each other, no thanks to the best efforts of Bill Barr and so on. I would say it is slightly pleasing how they tend to eat each other. But man it is an expensive soap opera to produce.

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thompnickson2

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin-5

Hi, Steve,

Well, I hate people who hate. Hating something, particularly any category as broad as “religious people”, is like putting your own eyes out and blaming the darkness. I hate myself when I hate. But I think the hatred described here is mostly rhetorical. There is a way of talking on FRIAM that involves using hyperbole with a wink, and, given that 80 percent of Americans are more or less religious, I think this is an example. It’s almost equivalent to saying, “I hate people,” which I can complete understand, but wouldn’t admit to out loud. Actually, I don’t think there are a lot of haters in this group.

‘

I think we are at our best as a group when we talk about things we (1) care about, (2) on which we have some [expert?} experience to bring to bear, and on which our minds are at least slightly ajar. I do wish complexity would rear its ugly head more often in our discussions, but I would guess we have drifted away from it both in caring and in knowledge, so, if we tried to get a discussion going, it would be like burping up last night’s Famiglia Cribari. µ

Nick

µ For those of you who are under 80, Famiglia Cribari was the graduate student wine of choice in the 60’s. You bought it in jugs. If you brought a whole jug to a pot luck, you were forgiven for not bringing any food.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Cc: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

Marcus writes:

I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

-Stephen

_______________________________________________________________________
[hidden email]

CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828

twitter: @simtable

zoom.com/j/5055775828

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: why some people hate cops

I am an author of 6+ published papers in complexity but the topic "algorithms for inference of gene regulatory networks using causal reasoning" would not keep people's interest I fear. Nor would "validation of ABMs using causal inference". Any presentation of that work would require a projector and/or a whiteboard. I like unstructured, informal conversations along the lines of the discussions on the List.

p.s. the papers mentioned are available for reading.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:24 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Steve,

Well, I hate people who hate. Hating something, particularly any category as broad as “religious people”, is like putting your own eyes out and blaming the darkness. I hate myself when I hate. But I think the hatred described here is mostly rhetorical. There is a way of talking on FRIAM that involves using hyperbole with a wink, and, given that 80 percent of Americans are more or less religious, I think this is an example. It’s almost equivalent to saying, “I hate people,” which I can complete understand, but wouldn’t admit to out loud. Actually, I don’t think there are a lot of haters in this group.
‘
I think we are at our best as a group when we talk about things we (1) care about, (2) on which we have some [expert?} experience to bring to bear, and on which our minds are at least slightly ajar. I do wish complexity would rear its ugly head more often in our discussions, but I would guess we have drifted away from it both in caring and in knowledge, so, if we tried to get a discussion going, it would be like burping up last night’s Famiglia Cribari. µ

Nick
µ For those of you who are under 80, Famiglia Cribari was the graduate student wine of choice in the 60’s. You bought it in jugs. If you brought a whole jug to a pot luck, you were forgiven for not bringing any food.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Cc: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

Marcus writes:
I guess the only thing I hate more than cops are religious people.

As a list admin, this might be flaggable. I'm not sure if expressing hatred of a protected class of people in of itself is hate speech- it seems to be at least up to the line. Ie, replace with "The two groups I hate more than cops are gays and black people" - would I have a responsibility to intercede?

As I consider the impotence of this group to take political action and incite political violence I consider the statement low to zero risk. I will take no action as a list admin. Intellectually, I would like to know where the line of hate speech is.

Now, as a fellow list member and religious person, I find your hate an opportunity for discussion and exploration. I would estimate your emotion is held by at least a rough majority of list members.

The Science / Religion schism, I think it is one of the great divides in our political situation and may signify a phase transition in our culture as we stretch for new metaphors in scientific and spiritual understanding. The 2000-year old metaphors are certainly getting long in the tooth. Similarly, many on this list feel the 60-year-old scientific metaphors around fundamental questions of intelligence and living systems are in the process of updating and exploration. I suspect there will be opportunities for synthesis.

Perhaps Merle would like to facilitate a virtualFriam on the topic.

-Stephen
_______________________________________________________________________
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Steve Smith

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick sez-

Well, I hate people who hate.

I am intolerant only of the intolerant and I have nothing to hate but hate itself!

Hating something, particularly any category as broad as “religious people”, is like putting your own eyes out and blaming the darkness.

I was confronted some time back with the "idea" that liberals were self-loathing... which put me off some, and while I am not exactly liberal, or even progressive I am more sympathetic and aligned with those who self-identify as such than, for example, their converse (kka Conservatives?). I've slowly come to an ideation about this which is that there is something in common between having a liberal/progressive/empathic? view of the world and being (at least somewhat) self-questioning which (as Nick illustrates) can spiral into something *like* self-loathing (at least from the outside). I think this is one of the primary mechanisms that "whomever-fits-the-shoe" use to "own liberals" as they so proudly proclaim... if they can twist someone into questioning/resenting/nay...*hating* themselves at any level, then they feel like they "gotcha!".

I hate myself when I hate. But I think the hatred described here is mostly rhetorical.

I took Marcus statement to be primarily hyperbolic with a dash of rhetoric... or vice-versa? I also took Stephen's strong statement against it as a primarily rhetorical mode of bringing focus to the topic I think he really wants to talk about... which I can't define myself, but has something to do with trying to understand "the Sacred", using the language/perspective of Science. Not making Science into a Religion (as Dave might think we do here) nor *explaining* or *proving* the existence of God/Heaven/Grace, etc. with Science, but acknowledging a common (possibly exhaustively persuasive) sense that humans (conscious beings?) have of there being things which are transcendent, or sacred or somehow within our apprehension but beyond our articulation? Science is "designed" to chip away at the mysteries... pin them down and define them, and chip away at their edges, and occasionally do broad sweeps to clear away the debris from that, but does not truly pretend to sweep all questions away for all times, or even be able to, though Russell/Whitehead thought they had done that with Mathematics until Kurt Godel came along and swept *that* misapprehension away!

There is a way of talking on FRIAM that involves using hyperbole with a wink, and, given that 80 percent of Americans are more or less religious, I think this is an example. It’s almost equivalent to saying, “I hate people,” which I can complete understand, but wouldn’t admit to out loud. Actually, I don’t think there are a lot of haters in this group.

‘

I think we are at our best as a group when we talk about things we (1) care about, (2) on which we have some [expert?} experience to bring to bear, and on which our minds are at least slightly ajar. I do wish complexity would rear its ugly head more often in our discussions, but I would guess we have drifted away from it both in caring and in knowledge, so, if we tried to get a discussion going, it would be like burping up last night’s Famiglia Cribari. µ

Nick

µ For those of you who are under 80, Famiglia Cribari was the graduate student wine of choice in the 60’s. You bought it in jugs. If you brought a whole jug to a pot luck, you were forgiven for not bringing any food.

Ah... the Boone's Farm or Mad Dog 20/20 of Boomers and perhaps Xr's alike? Or for the hipsters, maybe just a 12 of PBR...

- Steve

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: why some people hate cops

Steve writes:

< I was confronted some time back with the "idea" that liberals were self-loathing... >

My reaction to be accused of being a coastal elite: Curious as I definitely do loathe myself. I just loathe the deplorables and such much more. Naturally, misanthropy is the baseline. Reach for your wallet when people start on the optimism. We aren’t all good enough.

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: why some people hate cops

In reply to this post by gepr

I think I hate huffiness, in all its forms. I plan to be very huffy about people who are huffy.

I agree FRIAM should not be a safe space. In that case, what would be the point?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I was recently triggered by what I thought was a disparaging comment from EricC about the recent attempt to redefine "racism" so as to (primarily) refer to systemic racism. The idea, I think, is that a minority can't be called "racist" because the majority has overwhelming control over the system in which they live. After asking a clarifying question (as I *always* have to do with EricC! >8^D), he elaborated that it's unreasonable to *expect* everyone to know that the definition has changed. Confusion will mount because language is fluid, ambiguity exists, definitions change, not all people are the same, etc.

But there's depth to the discussion. Religious people have been in near TOTAL control of our world for a very very long time. Even today, atheists are nearly unelectable. If it weren't for some fluidity in the market of different religions, that control would be total. Part of why I like jokes like the Discordians and Flying Spaghetti Monster (and more deeply the Satanic Temple) is because they compete in that ridiculous market. To accuse a minority of hate speech against a majority is a little off-kilter, to me. It may be literally appropriate. But it misses the nuance of the conversation.

On 9/24/20 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

--
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: why some people hate cops

I think I hate huffiness, in all its forms. I plan to be very huffy about people who are huffy..

You're close to one of the great insights: the people who bother you intensely are often the ones who are like you in the way that you hate.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 8:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I hate huffiness, in all its forms. I plan to be very huffy about people who are huffy.

I agree FRIAM should not be a safe space. In that case, what would be the point?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I was recently triggered by what I thought was a disparaging comment from EricC about the recent attempt to redefine "racism" so as to (primarily) refer to systemic racism. The idea, I think, is that a minority can't be called "racist" because the majority has overwhelming control over the system in which they live. After asking a clarifying question (as I *always* have to do with EricC! >8^D), he elaborated that it's unreasonable to *expect* everyone to know that the definition has changed. Confusion will mount because language is fluid, ambiguity exists, definitions change, not all people are the same, etc.

But there's depth to the discussion. Religious people have been in near TOTAL control of our world for a very very long time. Even today, atheists are nearly unelectable. If it weren't for some fluidity in the market of different religions, that control would be total. Part of why I like jokes like the Discordians and Flying Spaghetti Monster (and more deeply the Satanic Temple) is because they compete in that ridiculous market. To accuse a minority of hate speech against a majority is a little off-kilter, to me. It may be literally appropriate. But it misses the nuance of the conversation.

On 9/24/20 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

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thompnickson2

Re: why some people hate cops

Are you accusing me of being huffy?! Ach! Now THAT makes me huffy.

Internet connection seems to be affected by how many others are on, so very bad in the morning before people go out and in the early evening when the come home. So, I may not be able to show up. Please make my apologies if I don’t show up by 10.15.

Thanks, Frank,

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 8:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I think I hate huffiness, in all its forms. I plan to be very huffy about people who are huffy..

You're close to one of the great insights: the people who bother you intensely are often the ones who are like you in the way that you hate.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 8:19 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I hate huffiness, in all its forms. I plan to be very huffy about people who are huffy.

I agree FRIAM should not be a safe space. In that case, what would be the point?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why some people hate cops

I was recently triggered by what I thought was a disparaging comment from EricC about the recent attempt to redefine "racism" so as to (primarily) refer to systemic racism. The idea, I think, is that a minority can't be called "racist" because the majority has overwhelming control over the system in which they live. After asking a clarifying question (as I *always* have to do with EricC! >8^D), he elaborated that it's unreasonable to *expect* everyone to know that the definition has changed. Confusion will mount because language is fluid, ambiguity exists, definitions change, not all people are the same, etc.

But there's depth to the discussion. Religious people have been in near TOTAL control of our world for a very very long time. Even today, atheists are nearly unelectable. If it weren't for some fluidity in the market of different religions, that control would be total. Part of why I like jokes like the Discordians and Flying Spaghetti Monster (and more deeply the Satanic Temple) is because they compete in that ridiculous market. To accuse a minority of hate speech against a majority is a little off-kilter, to me. It may be literally appropriate. But it misses the nuance of the conversation.

On 9/24/20 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> To the extent any such people are “protected” is just because they are such bullies to begin with that they presume to bend social systems around their will. Keep it off my wave.

--
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