when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
 
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I was trolling the net trying to figure out if I actually understand evolution as well as I think I do (there's evidence that the incompetent tend to overestimate their competence and that the competent overestimate the competence of their fellows ... so I can't trust my own judgment and I can't trust the judgment of the competent people around me either ;-) and I came upon this paper: http://www.springerlink.com/content/2331741806807x22/fulltext.html Table 3, under the "Intuitive (incorrect) interpretation" of "Origins of New Traits" says: "Offspring may exhibit new beneficial traits even if the parents did not possess them." -------------------------------- Now, I have to admit that I (do and did) believe that offspring can exhibit "new" beneficial (or detrimental) traits even if the parents did not possess them. Naively, I'm thinking extra fingers and autism. This is like one of those many trick questions on tests back in college, right? There is a _particular_ intuitive (incorrect) interpretation the authors are referring to, here, right? I assume(d) a "new" trait might arise via: A) Crossover; hence, the child would exhibit it when the parents did not. B) A mutation captured in the sperm or egg, perhaps brought about by some genetic change in the parent, too local for the parent to exhibit a trait from it but pervasive enough in the offspring for it to exhibit the trait (whatever it may be). C) A mutation that happens after conception but before/during differentiation. D) A radical change in the environment such that prior to the change, some trait was not apparent (if a tree falls in the forest -- semantics of "trait" and "possess") in the parent but, due to the new environment, the trait is apparent in the offspring. Having made these 3 assumptive paths explicit, I now have some questions that haven't yet succumbed to a google search: 1) When and where do the mutations that are relevant to species evolution occur? Is it in the ontogeny of the parent prior to conception? Is it at conception? Just after conception during the offspring's ontogeny? 2) Is "trait" assumed, by evolutionary biologists, to encompass both the phenotype and the genotype, the phenomena plus the mechanism? Or is "trait" purely phenomenal and even if the same trait can be achieved with multiple mechanisms, we still say the individuals exhibit the _same_ trait? Thanks for any clues.... and don't ridicule me too much ... I'm sensitive. [grin] -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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Does it matter when the mutation occurs as long as it is recorded in the DNA?
"Trait" is a word and can mean whatever we define it to mean. As far as evolution is concerned, what survives and reproduces propagates, etc. If one finds a way to explain better chances of survival and reproduction in terms of traits, fine. But it's the survival and reproduction that matter not how we explain them. But I'm sure you already know that. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:09 PM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
I promise I wont ridicule the question if you promise not to ridicule the
answer. I think it does not matter so long as offspring resemble their parents differentially. However that comes about .... cultural transmission will do quite nicely if it is from parent to offspring differentially ... selection can do its magic. However a mutation arises, if a parent shares it with its children, then it can become the basis of selection. ed One of my contemporary bogglements is wondering how inheritance can ever take place, given what we know about the incredibily web-like arrangments by which development precedes. Faithfulness of replication begins to seem it self to be an achievement, the kind of thing that we commonly attribute to natural selection. But George Williams famously pointed out that, absent group selection, selection on for the genetic system itself was unlikely. therefore .... n Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 6/12/2009 5:10:36 PM > Subject: [FRIAM] when does evolutionary significant mutation occur? > > > I was trolling the net trying to figure out if I actually understand > evolution as well as I think I do (there's evidence that the incompetent > tend to overestimate their competence and that the competent > overestimate the competence of their fellows ... so I can't trust my own > judgment and I can't trust the judgment of the competent people around > me either ;-) and I came upon this paper: > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/2331741806807x22/fulltext.html > > Table 3, under the "Intuitive (incorrect) interpretation" of "Origins of > New Traits" says: > > "Offspring may exhibit new beneficial traits even if the parents did not > possess them." > > -------------------------------- > > Now, I have to admit that I (do and did) believe that offspring can > exhibit "new" beneficial (or detrimental) traits even if the parents did > not possess them. Naively, I'm thinking extra fingers and autism. > > This is like one of those many trick questions on tests back in college, > right? There is a _particular_ intuitive (incorrect) interpretation the > authors are referring to, here, right? I assume(d) a "new" trait might > arise via: > > A) Crossover; hence, the child would exhibit it when the parents did not. > > B) A mutation captured in the sperm or egg, perhaps brought about by > some genetic change in the parent, too local for the parent to exhibit a > trait from it but pervasive enough in the offspring for it to exhibit > the trait (whatever it may be). > > C) A mutation that happens after conception but before/during > differentiation. > > D) A radical change in the environment such that prior to the change, > some trait was not apparent (if a tree falls in the forest -- semantics > of "trait" and "possess") in the parent but, due to the new environment, > the trait is apparent in the offspring. > > Having made these 3 assumptive paths explicit, I now have some questions > that haven't yet succumbed to a google search: > > 1) When and where do the mutations that are relevant to species > evolution occur? Is it in the ontogeny of the parent prior to > conception? Is it at conception? Just after conception during the > offspring's ontogeny? > > 2) Is "trait" assumed, by evolutionary biologists, to encompass both the > phenotype and the genotype, the phenomena plus the mechanism? Or is > "trait" purely phenomenal and even if the same trait can be achieved > with multiple mechanisms, we still say the individuals exhibit the > _same_ trait? > > Thanks for any clues.... and don't ridicule me too much ... I'm > sensitive. [grin] > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
Thus spake Russ Abbott circa 06/12/2009 04:50 PM:
> Does it matter when the mutation occurs as long as it is recorded in the > DNA? Yes, at least as far as this paper is concerned and what it states as an incorrect interpretation of "origins of new traits". The authors state that it is _incorrect_ to think that "offspring may exhibit new beneficial traits even if the parents did not possess them." I thought that was the whole point of evolution, that offspring exhibit new (beneficial or detrimental) traits the parents did not possess. The only thing I can think to explain why it would be incorrect are a) equivocations on the words "trait" or "possess", b) specifics about the _timing_ of evolutionary relevant mutation, or c) an assertion that crossover is the salient operator not mutation. > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:09 PM, glen e. p. ropella < > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> [...] >> http://www.springerlink.com/content/2331741806807x22/fulltext.html >> >> Table 3, under the "Intuitive (incorrect) interpretation" of "Origins of >> New Traits" says: >> >> "Offspring may exhibit new beneficial traits even if the parents did not >> possess them." -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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In reply to this post by glen e. p. ropella-2
All Who Are Following This Thread:
Does it matter if it is "recorded in the DNA", so long as it is passed on to offspring? Also, let's not get lost in the chicken-egg thing. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 6/15/2009 6:09:48 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] when does evolutionary significant mutation occur? > > Thus spake Russ Abbott circa 06/12/2009 04:50 PM: > > Does it matter when the mutation occurs as long as it is recorded in the > > DNA? > > Yes, at least as far as this paper is concerned and what it states as an > incorrect interpretation of "origins of new traits". The authors state > that it is _incorrect_ to think that "offspring may exhibit new > beneficial traits even if the parents did not possess them." > > I thought that was the whole point of evolution, that offspring exhibit > new (beneficial or detrimental) traits the parents did not possess. The > only thing I can think to explain why it would be incorrect are a) > equivocations on the words "trait" or "possess", b) specifics about the > _timing_ of evolutionary relevant mutation, or c) an assertion that > crossover is the salient operator not mutation. > > > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:09 PM, glen e. p. ropella < > > [hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> [...] > >> http://www.springerlink.com/content/2331741806807x22/fulltext.html > >> > >> Table 3, under the "Intuitive (incorrect) interpretation" of "Origins > >> New Traits" says: > >> > >> "Offspring may exhibit new beneficial traits even if the parents did not > >> possess them." > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: when does evolutionary significant mutation occur?
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nicholas Thompson emitted this, circa 09-06-12 09:17 PM:
> I think it does not matter so long as offspring resemble their parents > differentially. However that comes about .... cultural transmission will > do quite nicely if it is from parent to offspring differentially ... > selection can do its magic. > > However a mutation arises, if a parent shares it with its children, then it > can become the basis of selection. ed Well, it does matter, I think, because _whether_ an offspring shares a "trait" with its parents could be a question of when the genome changed. I fully understand that _after_ some individual (or population) already _has_ a particular "trait", then it is passed on and either helps the offspring mate or not. That's not the issue. What I don't understand is how evolution can happen at all if all offspring must share all their "traits" with their parents. If that's the case (and we don't equivocate on "trait" or "possess"), then mutation is totally irrelevant to evolution and crossover is all there is. Well, there's another exception, namely mutation in the sperm or egg prior to conception. Then the parents do "possess" the "trait" in some sense... but again that sounds like equivocation on "trait" and "possess". The author of that paper outright states that it is _incorrect_ to say that offspring can have traits the parents don't have. Hence, offspring must always get all their traits from their parents. And that implies (to me) that no new traits will ever arise. So, either the authors statement is too vague or wrong, or I am missing something fundamental. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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