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what is Gertrude thinking?

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Marcus G. Daniels

what is Gertrude thinking?

The hard problem will fall to data. They say so here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvmgjBL74w&feature=youtu.be

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jon zingale

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

Do you believe him?

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Steve Smith

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

Marcus/Jon/MotherChurchers -

Do you believe him?

I believe that what he is demonstrating is a roughly accurate presentation of what NL has achieved to date.

Am I astounded by:

How much progress has been made in the field in my life
How casual Musk and his fanbois/goils are about this
How Musk implies that the (truly significant) level of thoughtful safety required for Tesla cars is similar to what is required here.

I know I often render here as a neo-luddite, and perhaps that is what I am. I was raised on scientific progress and science fiction and experienced a lot of engineering marvels coming to fruit right in front of me. I have participated in and dreamed of a wide range of human-experience-enhancement projects, both professional and private, industrial and ad-hoc. My "inner child" wants to live forever, have my physicality, my intellectuality, and if possible, my spirituality enhanced in any and every way it might be. That could mean various modes of personal behaviour from diet to exercise/activity to meditation, etc. Technologically it could be everything from chemistry to electronic to computational to physical.

As I age (clumsily) it is easy for me to think of ways NL might extend/improve my life. When I allow myself to fantasize I can go *all over the place*. If I were younger and healthier I might be *even more* jazzed at imaginings of *enhancing* myself, not just mitigating losses. Driving a car or motorcycle (or flying a plane) by "thought", extending my physiome more *directly* even than those kinds of devices do is fairly simple/appealing. Taking the functions currently mediated through computers with screens/keyboards/mice, moble phones, fitness bands/rings, etc and making them more transparent are appealing. I expect to be able to listen to music/podcasts/audiobooks without earbuds long before I can have a virtual Heads-Up display but I see both of those out there on the horizon. Variations on telepresent robotics seem like excellent fusions of many of these features. Seems like I might be living instead of dreaming my orbital mechanics as a telepresent-waldo-spaceship is my proxy (yes, comm lags are big issues, but there *are* ways to mitigate and work around some of that) And it goes on and on and on from there. The sky is (not) the limit?

The biggest problem with/challenge to all of this in MY opinion is the one the Amish apparently ask themselves when they are considering whether to adopt a new (to them) technology: "who do I become when I have this technology?"

I have already danced a little above with some of the "things I could do, and implied that i could be" with this technology and on the surface, it seems like mostly upside. At best, it looks (like much of our current technology-of-personal-convenience) like a mixed bag. I think many of us recognize that our discovery of the energy that is embedded in fossil fuels and the myriad ways we have learned to harness that energy has some unintended consequences that *might* have us wanting to roll it all back and proceed into our modern industrial revolution a bit more thoughtfully (however one does that). Similarly, our widespread adoption of digital computation/storage/communication technologies might also fit that description. Most of us agree that "screen time" is a challenge for most demographics... Some may feel that "modern medicine" has become a significant "double-edged scalpel" for us... and modern agri-industry... and ... and ...

This leads to the reality that even if I or you, or all of FriAM resists this direction of development, or tries to overlay a strong review and regulation on it, it is going to happen, it is going to grow and spread. I recognize that simply being *negative* about all progress rarely serves to help that progress be more human/humane... if anything it pushes it into the darker corners and it ends up emerging with kinks and twists from those dark corners shaping it more than it needs to.

I'm ambi-valent on this technology... stoked at the possibilities, but also very leery of unbridled optimism and (ab)uses flying off in all directions at once (inevitable?). This is another example of Kauffman's "Adjacent Possible" space and bifurcation points. I don't *like* the dreams of Kurzweil and other Singularians but I am believing that something resembling it is more likely and Musk might be a significant driver of that. I know he speaks cautionarily against General AI, but I don't here him speak much about the (overwhelming?) problems of myriad other "unintended/anticipated consequences".

Pedal to the metal!

- Steve




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Steve Smith

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

And next, I think we need to start the debate over what serialization language "conceptual telepathy" will be based on.

Somehow I doubt it will be JSON except maybe for the biggest geeks who already think in JavaScript or PostScript ( ala NeWS circa 1988?), more likely whatever Haskell systems developers use for serialization?

Has anyone developed an "ethics filter or lens" for Haskell - Streams?

On 8/29/20 6:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Marcus/Jon/MotherChurchers -
Do you believe him?
I believe that what he is demonstrating is a roughly accurate presentation of what NL has achieved to date.

Am I astounded by:

How much progress has been made in the field in my life

How casual Musk and his fanbois/goils are about this

How Musk implies that the (truly significant) level of thoughtful safety required for Tesla cars is similar to what is required here.

I know I often render here as a neo-luddite, and perhaps that is what I am.   I was raised on scientific progress and science fiction and experienced a lot of engineering marvels coming to fruit right in front of me.   I have participated in and dreamed of a wide range of human-experience-enhancement projects, both professional and private, industrial and ad-hoc.    My "inner child" wants to live forever, have my physicality, my intellectuality, and if possible, my spirituality enhanced in any and every way it might be.   That could mean various modes of personal behaviour from diet to exercise/activity to meditation, etc.   Technologically it could be everything from chemistry to electronic to computational to physical.

As I age (clumsily) it is easy for me to think of ways NL might extend/improve my life.   When I allow myself to fantasize I can go *all over the place*.   If I were younger and healthier I might be *even more* jazzed at imaginings of *enhancing* myself, not just mitigating losses.   Driving a car or motorcycle (or flying a plane) by "thought", extending my physiome more *directly* even than those kinds of devices do is fairly simple/appealing.   Taking the functions currently mediated through computers with screens/keyboards/mice, moble phones, fitness bands/rings, etc and making them more transparent are appealing.   I expect to be able to listen to music/podcasts/audiobooks without earbuds long before I can have a virtual Heads-Up display but I see both of those out there on the horizon. Variations on telepresent robotics seem like excellent fusions of many of these features. Seems like I might be living instead of dreaming my orbital mechanics as a telepresent-waldo-spaceship is my proxy (yes, comm lags are big issues, but there *are* ways to mitigate and work around some of that) And it goes on and on and on from there.   The sky is (not) the limit?

The biggest problem with/challenge to all of this in MY opinion is the one the Amish apparently ask themselves when they are considering whether to adopt a new (to them) technology: "who do I become when I have this technology?"

I have already danced a little above with some of the "things I could do, and implied that i could be" with this technology and on the surface, it seems like mostly upside.   At best, it looks (like much of our current technology-of-personal-convenience) like a mixed bag.   I think many of us recognize that our discovery of the energy that is embedded in fossil fuels and the myriad ways we have learned to harness that energy has some unintended consequences that *might* have us wanting to roll it all back and proceed into our modern industrial revolution a bit more thoughtfully (however one does that).   Similarly, our widespread adoption of digital computation/storage/communication technologies might also fit that description.   Most of us agree that "screen time" is a challenge for most demographics... Some may feel that "modern medicine" has become a significant "double-edged scalpel" for us... and modern agri-industry... and ... and ...

This leads to the reality that even if I or you, or all of FriAM resists this direction of development, or tries to overlay a strong review and regulation on it, it is going to happen, it is going to grow and spread.   I recognize that simply being *negative* about all progress rarely serves to help that progress be more human/humane... if anything it pushes it into the darker corners and it ends up emerging with kinks and twists from those dark corners shaping it more than it needs to.

I'm ambi-valent on this technology... stoked at the possibilities, but also very leery of unbridled optimism and (ab)uses flying off in all directions at once (inevitable?).   This is another example of Kauffman's "Adjacent Possible" space and bifurcation points.     I don't *like* the dreams of Kurzweil and other Singularians but I am believing that something resembling it is more likely and Musk might be a significant driver of that.   I know he speaks cautionarily against General AI, but I don't here him speak much about the (overwhelming?) problems of myriad other "unintended/anticipated consequences".

Pedal to the metal!

- Steve
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

I think internal encoding and decoding is important part of improving my ideas, even if it is in a private, evolving language. Sometimes I feel like I basically understand something, but I haven’t rationalized it in a way that is easily reproducible in a public language; it’s boring and tedious to find that public language. That said, the possibility of watching these processes unfold with different people would be fascinating. (If it were possible to experience in some way, which is not clear is possible.)

1024 signals out of tens of billions of neurons isn’t going to be an adequate data stream to draw many conclusions about consciousness or relative efficiencies in human reason and creativity. But basic apps like heads-up display or repair of the peripheral nervous system would already be transformative technology.

Super-interesting people as far as I’m concerned.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 7:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] what is Gertrude thinking?

And next, I think we need to start the debate over what serialization language "conceptual telepathy" will be based on.

Has anyone developed an "ethics filter or lens" for Haskell - Streams?

On 8/29/20 6:22 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Marcus/Jon/MotherChurchers -
Do you believe him?
I believe that what he is demonstrating is a roughly accurate presentation of what NL has achieved to date.

Am I astounded by:

How much progress has been made in the field in my life
How casual Musk and his fanbois/goils are about this
How Musk implies that the (truly significant) level of thoughtful safety required for Tesla cars is similar to what is required here.

I know I often render here as a neo-luddite, and perhaps that is what I am.   I was raised on scientific progress and science fiction and experienced a lot of engineering marvels coming to fruit right in front of me.   I have participated in and dreamed of a wide range of human-experience-enhancement projects, both professional and private, industrial and ad-hoc.    My "inner child" wants to live forever, have my physicality, my intellectuality, and if possible, my spirituality enhanced in any and every way it might be.   That could mean various modes of personal behaviour from diet to exercise/activity to meditation, etc.   Technologically it could be everything from chemistry to electronic to computational to physical.

As I age (clumsily) it is easy for me to think of ways NL might extend/improve my life.   When I allow myself to fantasize I can go *all over the place*.   If I were younger and healthier I might be *even more* jazzed at imaginings of *enhancing* myself, not just mitigating losses.   Driving a car or motorcycle (or flying a plane) by "thought", extending my physiome more *directly* even than those kinds of devices do is fairly simple/appealing.   Taking the functions currently mediated through computers with screens/keyboards/mice, moble phones, fitness bands/rings, etc and making them more transparent are appealing.   I expect to be able to listen to music/podcasts/audiobooks without earbuds long before I can have a virtual Heads-Up display but I see both of those out there on the horizon. Variations on telepresent robotics seem like excellent fusions of many of these features. Seems like I might be living instead of dreaming my orbital mechanics as a telepresent-waldo-spaceship is my proxy (yes, comm lags are big issues, but there *are* ways to mitigate and work around some of that) And it goes on and on and on from there.   The sky is (not) the limit?

The biggest problem with/challenge to all of this in MY opinion is the one the Amish apparently ask themselves when they are considering whether to adopt a new (to them) technology: "who do I become when I have this technology?"

I have already danced a little above with some of the "things I could do, and implied that i could be" with this technology and on the surface, it seems like mostly upside.   At best, it looks (like much of our current technology-of-personal-convenience) like a mixed bag.   I think many of us recognize that our discovery of the energy that is embedded in fossil fuels and the myriad ways we have learned to harness that energy has some unintended consequences that *might* have us wanting to roll it all back and proceed into our modern industrial revolution a bit more thoughtfully (however one does that).   Similarly, our widespread adoption of digital computation/storage/communication technologies might also fit that description.   Most of us agree that "screen time" is a challenge for most demographics... Some may feel that "modern medicine" has become a significant "double-edged scalpel" for us... and modern agri-industry... and ... and ...

This leads to the reality that even if I or you, or all of FriAM resists this direction of development, or tries to overlay a strong review and regulation on it, it is going to happen, it is going to grow and spread.   I recognize that simply being *negative* about all progress rarely serves to help that progress be more human/humane... if anything it pushes it into the darker corners and it ends up emerging with kinks and twists from those dark corners shaping it more than it needs to.

I'm ambi-valent on this technology... stoked at the possibilities, but also very leery of unbridled optimism and (ab)uses flying off in all directions at once (inevitable?).   This is another example of Kauffman's "Adjacent Possible" space and bifurcation points.     I don't *like* the dreams of Kurzweil and other Singularians but I am believing that something resembling it is more likely and Musk might be a significant driver of that.   I know he speaks cautionarily against General AI, but I don't here him speak much about the (overwhelming?) problems of myriad other "unintended/anticipated consequences".

Pedal to the metal!

- Steve
 
 
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jon zingale

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

well said.

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

What I want to know is where are the Elon Musk copycats hiding? I can't walk down the street without bumping into at least one idiot who wants to be the next Donald Trump. Shoot an african american, abuse an immigrant, or beat a woman to death, and there's a line of people out the door who want a piece of that action. Why can't we all just build space ships, electric cars, and neural links?

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 2:14 AM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

well said.

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Steve Smith

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

On 8/30/20 6:55 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

What I want to know is where are the Elon Musk copycats hiding? I can't walk down the street without bumping into at least one idiot who wants to be the next Donald Trump. Shoot an african american, abuse an immigrant, or beat a woman to death, and there's a line of people out the door who want a piece of that action. Why can't we all just build space ships, electric cars, and neural links?

Bezos and Branson are somewhat "weak" copycats, not that billions of dollars suggests "weakness" in all domains.

Being a bully (re Trump) is a lot easier than knuckling down and doing the wide range of "hard work" implied my Elon Musk's success(es). I don't know quite what his composition is... he seems like more of a superb conductor and perhaps composer than anything. He obviously isn't working out all the details in each of these areas, he simply has the vision that "they *should* come to be" and somewhere back down the line (iteratively) he applied a certain kind of gumption to get from Step A to Step B to ... Step triple-Zed. Leveraging or "Chimneying" up the cracks in the technical/business landscape to amass enough wealth (Is $1M enough to launch these kinds of efforts? $1B? $10B?)

We had a vFriam discussion a while back that generally suggested that $Billonaires are by definition A$$holes, because (my twist) they control thousands of lives with that wealth, and that kind of power over others can never be "clean".

And yet we applaud Tony $tark <ahem Elon Mu$k) while being sure that Donald Chump is (much) worse for whatever wealth he actually held before becoming the Oligarch in Chief. And look askance at Bezos and Gates and all of that Ilk. I have known several people who were in Steve Jobs' inner circle, at least for a while, and they all agreed that being an A$$hole helped him get rich and being rich helped him be a bigger A$$hole, yet the style and competence he brought to the role made him semi-forgiveable?

It's tricky, no?

- Steve

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 2:14 AM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

well said.

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: what is Gertrude thinking?

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

Wasn’t social media supposed to bring people together? Still I wonder if a distributed nervous system could provide many advantages and hasten the end of such idiocy. It will be interesting (maybe in my lifetime?) to find out how skills are encoded, and how similar they are across people. Do basketball players or theoretical physicists or writers evolve similar or diverse neural architectures? Does it depend on the skill? Do the idiots all experience a similar cognitive failure mode or is it mostly a viral sociological phenomena?

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2020 5:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] what is Gertrude thinking?

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 2:14 AM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

well said.

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