vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

[HighlandWindsLLC Miller]

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

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[Russ Abbott]

Favoring members of one's own group is not incompatible with letting new people in. Many religions proselytize, for example. (Also, clubs and political parties recruit; countries add new citizens; etc.) Still members (new or longstanding) are often favored over non-members.

 

-- Russ 

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

<a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[glen ep ropella]

Russ Abbott wrote circa 11-08-24 11:14 AM:
> Favoring members of one's own group is not incompatible with letting new
> people in. Many religions proselytize, for example. (Also, clubs and
> political parties recruit; countries add new citizens; etc.) Still
> members (new or longstanding) are often favored over non-members.

Again, though, I think this is an over-simplification.  The frequency of
interactions between the individuals is much higher than that of the
group.  (Actually, it's almost nonsensical to talk of group actions.
Any group action is a composite, particular pattern -- or organization
-- of individual actions.  E.g. religions do NOT proselytize,
individuals proselytize.)  In that dynamic interplay of the group
"letting new people in", those potential new people who are not likely
to fit turn (and are turned) away.

So, even though it may _seem_ like a group lets new people in, it may
only let in those people who are judged compatible with the group, the
judging of which happens during the construction of the composite group
action from the many finer grained individual actions.  In other words,
the new people who are let in were really _already_ part of the same
group.  (I doubt that evolution cares whether you're on the parish
roster or not ;-) but it may care whether you behave like the people on
the parish roster. It seems to me that, to avoid talking nonsense, we
must separate self-identification of group identity from selection
classes over which evolution might operate.)

Some groups probably behave this way to a greater or lesser extent than
other groups.  I suspect religions that allow a very wide array of
beliefs (Unitarians?, Hindi?) are on one end of the spectrum where those
that insist on some form of coherence in belief amongst their members
(Southern Baptists?) are on the other end.  The former allows more
decoupling of belief from behavior than the latter.

To sum up, it should depend on what we mean by "group" as to whether
favoring in-group is incompatible with allowing out-group in.  The whole
topic seems ill-defined and suspect.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com


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[Nick Thompson]

Peggy,

 

Re: your comment on Russ’s comment: I think there is a distinction to be made here between research on contemporary humans and research that attempts to get at the selection pressures that made contemporary humans what they are today.  To say that human beings don’t profit from being in isolated groups is no argument against the evolutionary idea that we are the way we are today because of peculiarities of our evolutionary past.  The selection pressures that made us may have relaxed. 

 

Nick

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

 

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Nick Thompson]

Offline

 

I just stumbled on this message that was never answered.  It was in RED so I figured I better answer it.  See below. 

 

In fact, many warrior groups kidnap the women AND children from other groups.  Or even take the men as slaves.  This would seem to be stupid from in inclusive fitness point of view, but makes sense from a group selection point of view. 

 

Nick

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

 

Favoring members of one's own group is not incompatible with letting new people in. Many religions proselytize, for example. (Also, clubs and political parties recruit; countries add new citizens; etc.) Still members (new or longstanding) are often favored over non-members.

 

-- Russ 

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Robert J. Cordingley]

re: Group Power.  Has anyone tried/experienced/been subjected to Star Power - see http://www.stsintl.com/schools-charities/star_power.html.  Once I was on an in-house management training course attended by about 25 employees, when they decided to use it.  It turned nasty but revealing.

Thanks
Robert C

On 4/11/12 10:06 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Offline

 

I just stumbled on this message that was never answered.  It was in RED so I figured I better answer it.  See below. 

 

In fact, many warrior groups kidnap the women AND children from other groups.  Or even take the men as slaves.  This would seem to be stupid from in inclusive fitness point of view, but makes sense from a group selection point of view. 

 

Nick

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

 

Favoring members of one's own group is not incompatible with letting new people in. Many religions proselytize, for example. (Also, clubs and political parties recruit; countries add new citizens; etc.) Still members (new or longstanding) are often favored over non-members.

 

-- Russ 

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Arlo Barnes]

It sounds like Peggy's comment switches from a genetic to a memetic analysis.

From that standpoint, at least on the Internet, it seems a variety of inclusivity in groups works. Of course, that is slightly different, as the evolutionary pressure is not to reproduce but to exist (have [active] members). I am involved with groups that are very open, and groups that are very clique-like; also ones that have a lot of 'noise' and ones that are very themed, and the first and second pairs are not necessarily always the same.

-Arlo James Barnes

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[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

re: Group Power

 

We have had a year or more watching developments across North Africa and the Middle East.

Indeed it is a painfully slow drama of conflict between Groups and those they exclude( though they may be regarded as less than human they are still lethal).

Each Group as it seeks to restrict power to its favored ones excludes others in an instinctive manner. The excluded eventually out number the privileged and magically a revolution ensues. One charming characteristic is that the nominal heads of the Old Power Groups have no grasp of the precipice that awaits them. Mubarak seemed to be a lunatic the day before he was sequestered. Ben Ali and Gaddafi also appeared to be complete lunatics as well as their family members.

 

Conflict resolution appears to be deeply problematic if the one of the parties is entrenched in a lunacy. This situation only gets worse when both parties are deeply embedded in fantasy. Each proclaiming that they will not negotiate until they get whatever they demand. At such a point the mediators must admit that resolution is impossible. The only decision available is to surrender to lunatics or go to war. In that sense war is the inevitable result of Group Power Politics.

 

Evolution seems to have provided only blood lust to smash Group Behavior or to enforce Group Power..

An American philosopher has written on the mythological conviction that Consensus is superior to individual thought.

http://www.crispinsartwell.com/againstconsensus.htm

 

 

 

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

 

 

[hidden email]

 

 

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

 (204) 2548321 Land

 

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: April-12-12 2:05 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

 

re: Group Power.  Has anyone tried/experienced/been subjected to Star Power - see http://www.stsintl.com/schools-charities/star_power.html.  Once I was on an in-house management training course attended by about 25 employees, when they decided to use it.  It turned nasty but revealing.

Thanks
Robert C

On 4/11/12 10:06 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

Offline

 

I just stumbled on this message that was never answered.  It was in RED so I figured I better answer it.  See below. 

 

In fact, many warrior groups kidnap the women AND children from other groups.  Or even take the men as slaves.  This would seem to be stupid from in inclusive fitness point of view, but makes sense from a group selection point of view. 

 

Nick

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 98, iss.25 psychology cont'd

 

Favoring members of one's own group is not incompatible with letting new people in. Many religions proselytize, for example. (Also, clubs and political parties recruit; countries add new citizens; etc.) Still members (new or longstanding) are often favored over non-members.

 

-- Russ 

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of being too thorough, I wanted to comment on Russ's point:
"For example, group members will often favor other group members over
> outsiders even if the outsider  is the better choice for the individual
> to make  on some objective basis.  This is often an evolved preference ."> Groups that are successful in having their members behave in this way
> have a better chance to survive as a group."

I would add the word "temporarily" at the end of Ross's last quoted sentence. Over time, groups that do not allow "outsiders" in, tend to be inbred and develop major genetic problems and often die out or remain very very small in number due to losing most of members from either genetically inherited health problems or members moving due to boredom with group cause of lack of original thought included into their overall thinking or due to economically frozen structure. I think it is argued in Emergence theory that those behaviors that are sort of  "beyond the pale", that operate on the fringe, tend to help the central group develop better as they witness these more unusual forms of behavior.
Peggy



--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just off Russell, four blocks from Good Food Store)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

<a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Tues/Wed: 12-4
                         Thurs:  3-7 pm
                   Fri-Sat: 10 am -2pm

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org