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vol 95, issue 97

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HighlandWindsLLC Miller

vol 95, issue 97

In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin Laden's death:
Thank you for submitting those.

Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help us move toward good answers to international problems.

so thanks.
Peggy Miller

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russell Gonnering

Re: vol 95, issue 97

With all due respect, tell that to the thousands of innocent Israeli civilians who have been butchered over the last 60 years for the crime of existing. The intentional targeting of civilians as a matter of policy is reprehensible, and attempting to excuse it with moral equivalence arguments is one of the reasons it continues. I frankly do not understand why it is so difficult to just condemn barbaric actions without somehow excusing them, while protesting that one is of course not "really" excusing them.

Bin Laden's desire to incinerate almost 3000 Americans on 9/11 was our fault only in so far as we stood by the right of Israel to exist. At Camp David in 2000 and again in January 2001, Ehud Barak offered virtually all of the land requested for a two-state solution. It was rejected by Arafat. This is not about achieving a just solution in the Mideast. It is about destroying Jews and Israel.

I keep hearing that we went to "war" (or is it now "kinetic military action'?) for oil. Yet we get none of the oil from Iraq, none of the oil from Libya.

Just what, factually speaking, is our long history of our extremely warlike and predatory actions? In the last 70 years: What countries have we annexed? What natural resources have we appropriated as our own? What factories from Japan and Germany did we loot and bring to the US? Oh, wait, we rebuilt those countries following WWII. What countries did we bring to their knees by withholding food? North Korea? No, we send them food.

I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare. Instead, I find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity. Please take me off the list. It has no utility for me. The inside jokes and self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore. Nothing complex here! Enjoy yourselves.

Russ Gonnering

Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ

[hidden email]

www.emergenthealth.net

On May 6, 2011, at 1:16 PM, peggy miller wrote:

In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin Laden's death:
Thank you for submitting those.

Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help us move toward good answers to international problems.

so thanks.
Peggy Miller

--
Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Terrorosity and it's Fruits

In reply to this post by HighlandWindsLLC Miller

Mohammed -

I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the following to hers:

I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension (by death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the first place.

Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear we continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been predatory...

By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West", "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates" or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.

The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.

The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world, became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory behaviour in this regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands".   But it is predatory nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high standard of living.

We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   Petroleum is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and human labor).

What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, a necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to suffer predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in the chain.

What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they (WE) directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on us to find better ways of living in this world.   I was a vegetarian for 17 years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from animals that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves.   Those cruel realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made the awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing, gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or were self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they don't notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty?   I found few amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance.   To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a "system".

And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who revel in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all "shock and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole ecosystems with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum extraction and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their predation but don't think much past that, or know what else to do.

Me too. Sadly, me too.   I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to speak out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to help feed the dysfunctional feedback loop.

I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) are the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors held up by such events.

I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us, including those who might be in a position to make important changes and that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a better way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of attraction can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems to be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch in or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable, life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and to play along.   Are we?

Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and maybe to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our own tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in.

- Steve

In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin Laden's death:
Thank you for submitting those.

Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help us move toward good answers to international problems.

so thanks.
Peggy Miller

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russell Standish

Re: vol 95, issue 97

In reply to this post by Russell Gonnering

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 02:26:10PM -0500, Russell Gonnering wrote:
>
> I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare. Instead, I find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity. Please take me off the list. It has no utility for me. The inside jokes and self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore. Nothing complex here! Enjoy yourselves.
>
> Russ Gonnering
>

Internet fora are ever thus. There has been plenty of modelling
discussion, and other more philosophical discussion on complexity
topics. But they aren't dominant :).

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email]
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Mohammed El-Beltagy

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.

I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
against any human being, and that also happens to includes
Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.

I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
Saddam!!!
4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
family.... hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.

I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the
> following to hers:
>
> I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's
> occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension (by
> death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and
> Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own
> part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are
> surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> first place.
>
> Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we
> are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear we
> continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even
> popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> predatory...
>
> By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West",
> "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates"
> or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably
> it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that
> the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders
> of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed
> in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing
> our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.
>
> The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of
> discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American
> continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european
> powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the
> rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving
> us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial
> presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.
>
> The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great
> deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the
> mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world,
> became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory behaviour in this
> regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company
> than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or
> the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands".   But it is predatory
> nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high
> standard of living.
>
> We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and
> covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a
> global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   Petroleum
> is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural
> resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and
> human labor).
>
> What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a
> Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two
> very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, a
> necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory
> chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to suffer
> predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in the
> chain.
>
> What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they (WE)
> directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on us
> to find better ways of living in this world.   I was a vegetarian for 17
> years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal
> cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very
> nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from animals
> that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves.   Those cruel
> realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made the
> awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing,
> gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't
> hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or were
> self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they don't
> notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty?   I found few
> amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance.
> To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute
> ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple
> matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the
> predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a
> "system".
>
> And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who revel
> in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine
> when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all "shock
> and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole ecosystems
> with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum extraction
> and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but
> meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their
> "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their predation
> but don't think much past that, or know what else to do.
>
> Me too. Sadly, me too.   I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon
> footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to speak
> out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the
> military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my
> consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental
> problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to help
> feed the dysfunctional feedback loop.
>
> I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is
> these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) are
> the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors
> held up by such events.
>
> I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us,
> including those who might be in a position to make important changes and
> that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a better
> way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of attraction
> can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to
> wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems to
> be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch in
> or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable,
> life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and to
> play along.   Are we?
>
>
> Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the
> rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and maybe
> to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our own
> tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in.
>
> - Steve
>
> In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin
> Laden's death:
> Thank you for submitting those.
>
> Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and,
> as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me
> choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the
> response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face
> some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the
> original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of
> that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions --
> and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred
> for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always
> wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited
> any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war,
> rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are
> addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become
> extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful,
> scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems.
> And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I
> think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial,
> warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our
> international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help
> us move toward good answers to international problems.
>
> so thanks.
> Peggy Miller
>
>
>
> --
> Peggy Miller, owner/OEO
> Highland Winds
> wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
> Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)
> Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
> 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
> Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
>                    Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

Salaam Mohammed,

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots. Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are a planet of idiots.

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

Best,

--Doug

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.

I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
against any human being, and that also happens to includes
Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.

I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
Saddam!!!
4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
family.... hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.

I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the
> following to hers:
>
> I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's
> occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension (by
> death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and
> Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own
> part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are
> surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> first place.
>
> Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we
> are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear we
> continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even
> popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> predatory...
>
> By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West",
> "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates"
> or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably
> it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that
> the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders
> of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed
> in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing
> our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.
>
> The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of
> discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American
> continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european
> powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the
> rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving
> us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial
> presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.
>
> The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great
> deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the
> mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world,
> became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory behaviour in this
> regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company
> than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or
> the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands".   But it is predatory
> nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high
> standard of living.
>
> We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and
> covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a
> global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   Petroleum
> is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural
> resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and
> human labor).
>
> What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a
> Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two
> very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, a
> necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory
> chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to suffer
> predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in the
> chain.
>
> What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they (WE)
> directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on us
> to find better ways of living in this world.   I was a vegetarian for 17
> years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal
> cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very
> nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from animals
> that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves.   Those cruel
> realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made the
> awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing,
> gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't
> hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or were
> self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they don't
> notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty?   I found few
> amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance.
> To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute
> ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple
> matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the
> predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a
> "system".
>
> And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who revel
> in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine
> when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all "shock
> and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole ecosystems
> with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum extraction
> and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but
> meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their
> "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their predation
> but don't think much past that, or know what else to do.
>
> Me too. Sadly, me too.   I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon
> footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to speak
> out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the
> military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my
> consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental
> problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to help
> feed the dysfunctional feedback loop.
>
> I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is
> these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) are
> the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors
> held up by such events.
>
> I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us,
> including those who might be in a position to make important changes and
> that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a better
> way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of attraction
> can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to
> wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems to
> be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch in
> or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable,
> life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and to
> play along.   Are we?
>
>
> Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the
> rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and maybe
> to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our own
> tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in.
>
> - Steve
>
> In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin
> Laden's death:
> Thank you for submitting those.
>
> Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and,
> as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me
> choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the
> response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face
> some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the
> original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of
> that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions --
> and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred
> for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always
> wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited
> any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war,
> rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are
> addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become
> extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful,
> scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems.
> And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I
> think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial,
> warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our
> international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help
> us move toward good answers to international problems.
>
> so thanks.
> Peggy Miller
>
>
>
> --
> Peggy Miller, owner/OEO
> Highland Winds
> wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
> Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)
> Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
> <a href="tel:406-541-7577" value="+14065417577">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
> Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
>                    Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

I knew we could depend on you Doug!

My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call it, pragmatism?

Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether there is something to be done about it?

And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.

- Steve

Salaam Mohammed,

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots. Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are a planet of idiots.

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

Best,

--Doug

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

Optimists usually view it as pessimism, Steve. But they're wrong. Realism/pragmatism is my lodestone.

--Doug

Postscript: To those who wish to run away from the FRIAM list, taking their marbles with them under the guise of You're not complex enough for me! let me just say, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, and use the listserv to unsubscribe, please."

Thank you.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I knew we could depend on you Doug!

My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call it, pragmatism?

Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether there is something to be done about it?

And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.

- Steve

Salaam Mohammed,

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots. Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are a planet of idiots.

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

Best,

--Doug

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Sarbajit Roy (testing)

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

In reply to this post by Mohammed El-Beltagy

"But, to say that it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop."

To use a LoTR analogy, I'd say that the present popular opinion outside the USofA is that America is Sauron churning out vast armies of orcs in its rapacious quest for energy and other vital resoirces. OR, they are the "aliens" of the movie "Independence Day" plundering and pillaaging comparatively defenceless planets - the inhabitants of which occassionally manage to shove a rocket (or two) up their enemies backside with fiery consequences,

Simplistically, If Americans would simply learn to consume less, respect our planet's shared environment, sign and follow, say, the Kyoto protoicol, we could all live in peace and harmony - lions laying with lambs etc.

Lastly, insofar as Osama is concerned, your Govt always knew precisely where he was, and your President "took him out" of cold storage (Pakistan) to prepare his 2012 Thanksgiving dinner.

Sarbajit

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.

I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
against any human being, and that also happens to includes
Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.

I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
Saddam!!!
4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
family.... hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.

I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the
> following to hers:
>

Nick Thompson

Re: vol 95, issue 97

In reply to this post by Russell Standish

RussG,

A message such as you wrote is ambiguous because it is a demand TO the list
to be taken OFF the list. If you simply wanted to be taken OFF the list,
the instructions for doing that are at the bottom of every post from the
list. So, it sounds like you want us to talk about the decline of the
relevance to the list for your concerns.

I agree that some focus and restraint is important in a forum such as FRIAM.
As a heavy poster to the list, I feel the sting of your comments, and will
try to make my contributions sharper in the future. But I have always found
the list pretty responsive to any topic that is introduced in a reasonably
compact manner (not a skill of mine). So, if you are still with us, I would
urge you to put a question or concern to the list and see what we do with
it. If nothing of value comes of that, then use the instructions at the
bottom of the list, or write Steve Guerin as [hidden email] and you
will be free!

All the best,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Russell Standish
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 5:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 02:26:10PM -0500, Russell Gonnering wrote:
>
> I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a
subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the
formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare. Instead, I
find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity. Please take me
off the list. It has no utility for me. The inside jokes and
self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore.
Nothing complex here! Enjoy yourselves.
>
> Russ Gonnering
>

Internet fora are ever thus. There has been plenty of modelling discussion,
and other more philosophical discussion on complexity topics. But they
aren't dominant :).

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email]
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives,
unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Mohammed El-Beltagy

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:

Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as
stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there
emerges "decision masking structures" emerge that actively obfuscate
the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their
ends?

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 3:50 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I knew we could depend on you Doug!
>
> My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call it,
> pragmatism?
>
> Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of
> idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether
> there is something to be done about it?
>
> And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity
> Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.
>
> - Steve
>
> Salaam Mohammed,
> Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of
> accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the
> historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with
> mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For
> reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots.
> Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of
> multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of
> mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are
> a planet of idiots.
> Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm
> sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.
> Best,
> --Doug
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Terrorosity and it's Fruits

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

I urge the angry to ask why. Too often storming away from a table is exactly why we never break ground.

As to the topic of Complexity , this is one component you never inquired of, Why do sensible people become IDIOTS. How does society create idiots out of men?

That was my reason to join long ago. The fact that IDIOTS are convinced that they are correct Fascinates me.

How can any of us trust the words coming out of our mouths, if we were to discover we have been blindly lead by a Narrative into a cul de sac of Idiocy.

The story of binLaden was writen long ago Tolstoy. The short story, Hadji Murat, describes much of the same atmosphere.

The killing was easy , the understanding is difficult.

It takes no great skill to kill, any brute can do it, it is a much greater challenge to keep something alive.

How do we model stupifaction of real people?

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: May-06-11 7:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

Salaam Mohammed,

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

Best,

--Doug

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the
> following to hers:
>
> I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's
> occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension (by
> death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and
> Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own
> part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are
> surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> first place.
>
> Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we
> are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear we
> continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even
> popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> predatory...
>
> By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West",
> "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates"
> or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably
> it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that
> the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders
> of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed
> in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing
> our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.
>
> The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of
> discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American
> continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european
> powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the
> rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving
> us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial
> presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.
>
> The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great
> deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the
> mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world,
> became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory behaviour in this
> regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company
> than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or
> the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands".   But it is predatory
> nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high
> standard of living.
>
> We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and
> covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a
> global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   Petroleum
> is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural
> resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and
> human labor).
>
> What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a
> Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two
> very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, a
> necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory
> chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to suffer
> predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in the
> chain.
>
> What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they (WE)
> directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on us
> to find better ways of living in this world.   I was a vegetarian for 17
> years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal
> cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very
> nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from animals
> that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves.   Those cruel
> realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made the
> awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing,
> gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't
> hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or were
> self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they don't
> notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty?   I found few
> amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance.
> To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute
> ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple
> matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the
> predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a
> "system".
>
> And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who revel
> in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine
> when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all "shock
> and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole ecosystems
> with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum extraction
> and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but
> meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their
> "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their predation
> but don't think much past that, or know what else to do.
>
> Me too. Sadly, me too.   I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon
> footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to speak
> out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the
> military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my
> consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental
> problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to help
> feed the dysfunctional feedback loop.
>
> I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is
> these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) are
> the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors
> held up by such events.
>
> I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us,
> including those who might be in a position to make important changes and
> that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a better
> way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of attraction
> can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to
> wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems to
> be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch in
> or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable,
> life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and to
> play along.   Are we?
>
>
> Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the
> rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and maybe
> to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our own
> tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in.
>
> - Steve
>
> In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin
> Laden's death:
> Thank you for submitting those.
>
> Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and,
> as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me
> choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the
> response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face
> some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the
> original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of
> that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions --
> and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred
> for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always
> wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited
> any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war,
> rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are
> addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become
> extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful,
> scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems.
> And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I
> think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial,
> warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our
> international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help
> us move toward good answers to international problems.
>
> so thanks.
> Peggy Miller
>
>
>
> --
> Peggy Miller, owner/OEO
> Highland Winds
> wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
> Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)
> Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
> <a href="tel:406-541-7577">406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
> Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
>                    Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: vol 95, issue 97

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Thanks Nick, someone needed to say that.

Sure there are tangents, but as mailing lists go, FRIAM has a pretty high signal to noise ratio.

It also has a quite diverse group of participants and lurkers. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't; sometimes we like to jump on the unpopular side of a controversial topic, other times we echo the politically correct view.

For the most part, we have fairly thick skins, though we don't usually need them. It would be a shame if we kept the tenor so neutral as to never offend anyone. But if someone really finds us that offensive, then like you said, the exit sign is brightly lit. Their loss.

;; Gary

On May 6, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> RussG,
>
> A message such as you wrote is ambiguous because it is a demand TO the list
> to be taken OFF the list. If you simply wanted to be taken OFF the list,
> the instructions for doing that are at the bottom of every post from the
> list. So, it sounds like you want us to talk about the decline of the
> relevance to the list for your concerns.
>
> I agree that some focus and restraint is important in a forum such as FRIAM.
> As a heavy poster to the list, I feel the sting of your comments, and will
> try to make my contributions sharper in the future. But I have always found
> the list pretty responsive to any topic that is introduced in a reasonably
> compact manner (not a skill of mine). So, if you are still with us, I would
> urge you to put a question or concern to the list and see what we do with
> it. If nothing of value comes of that, then use the instructions at the
> bottom of the list, or write Steve Guerin as [hidden email] and you
> will be free!
>
> All the best,
>
> Nick

Owen Densmore

Re: vol 95, issue 97

Administrator

In reply to this post by Russell Standish

On May 6, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
> Internet fora are ever thus. There has been plenty of modelling
> discussion, and other more philosophical discussion on complexity
> topics. But they aren't dominant :).

Friam grew out of several roots, mainly the Bios Group and the 2000 Complex Systems Summer School where Steve G. and I met and began coffee meetings at the Downtown Subscription. We eventually grew enough to need a small list to decide the next meetings etc. From there it blossomed into an international list of folks of "like mind".

In 2000 "complexity" was a huge change in the way we think. Bottom up, tangible, evolving, surprise, etc all parts of the equation. On the last day of the summer school, we bought a casita here, and talked Sun Labs into my working both in Palo Alto and in Santa Fe, via the SFI business network. Very exciting!

But we evolve and what was then novel is now accepted. Complexity is dropping out of the equation, replaced with a plethora of topics which seem to hang together to redefine complexity. Social networking, for example, wasn't even a buzz word then but then "computational social sciences" was just starting up.

So we evolve. From the roots of Friam grew the Santa Fe Complex, which is very successful at forming effective and surprising projects. A project focus is "complex" in and of itself, but has many concerned about "where's the complexity now"? Go with the flow.

So no wonder our conversations have also evolved.

The delete key is but a click away!

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------

Mohammed,
Being totally unqualified to help you with this problem... it seems interesting to me because most models I know of this sort (social systems models) are about information acquisition and deployment. That is, the modeled critters try to find out stuff, and then they do actions dependent upon what they find. If we are modeling active obfuscation, then we would be doing the opposite - we would be modeling an information-hiding game. Of course, there is lots of game theory work on information hiding in two critter encounters (I'm thinking evolutionary-game-theory-looking-at-deception). I haven't seen anything, though, looking at distributed information hiding.

The idea that you could create a system full of autonomous agents in which information ends up hidden, but no particular individuals have done the hiding, is kind of cool. Seems like the type of thing encryption guys could get into (or already are into, or have already moved past).

Eric

On Fri, May 6, 2011 10:05 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:

Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as
stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there
emerges "decision masking  structures" emerge that actively obfuscate
the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their
ends?

Mohammed El-Beltagy

Re: Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

Eric,

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. As complex game of information hiding.

I was thinking along the line of of having a schema for rule creation. The schema here is like a constitution, and players can generate new rules based on that schema to promote their self interest. For rules to become "laws" they have to be the choice on the majority (or subject to some other social choice mechanism), this system allows for group formation and coalition building to get the new rules passed into laws. The interesting bit is how the drive for self interest amongst some of those groups and their coalitions can give rise to rules renders the original schema and/or the social choice mechanism ineffective. By "ineffective", I mean that they yield results and behavior that run counter to the purpose for which they were originally designed.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:44 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------
Mohammed,
Being totally unqualified to help you with this problem... it seems interesting to me because most models I know of this sort (social systems models) are about information acquisition and deployment. That is, the modeled critters try to find out stuff, and then they do actions dependent upon what they find. If we are modeling active obfuscation, then we would be doing the opposite - we would be modeling an information-hiding game. Of course, there is lots of game theory work on information hiding in two critter encounters (I'm thinking evolutionary-game-theory-looking-at-deception). I haven't seen anything, though, looking at distributed information hiding.

The idea that you could create a system full of autonomous agents in which information ends up hidden, but no particular individuals have done the hiding, is kind of cool. Seems like the type of thing encryption guys could get into (or already are into, or have already moved past).

Eric

On Fri, May 6, 2011 10:05 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard: Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there emerges "decision masking structures" emerge that actively obfuscate the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their ends?
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic

lrudolph

Re: Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Eric, Mohammed, et al.:

Alex Poddiakov, in Moscow, has done work that seems to me like it
*might* be related to this question; for instance, on what he calls
"Trojan horse learning". I refer you to his website, where various
manuscripts (some in Russian, some in Russglish) are available and
others are at least pointed to. <http://epee.hse.ru/Poddiakov>

Lee Rudolph

> I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------
>
> Mohammed,
> Being totally unqualified to help you with this problem... it
> seems interesting to me because most models I know of this sort (social systems
> models) are about information acquisition and deployment. That is, the modeled
> critters try to find out stuff, and then they do actions dependent upon what
> they find. If we are modeling active obfuscation, then we would be doing the
> opposite - we would be modeling an information-hiding game. Of course, there is
> lots of game theory work on information hiding in two critter encounters (I'm
> thinking evolutionary-game-theory-looking-at-deception). I haven't seen
> anything, though, looking at distributed information hiding.
>
> The idea
> that you could create a system full of autonomous agents in which information
> ends up hidden, but no particular individuals have done the hiding, is kind of
> cool. Seems like the type of thing encryption guys could get into (or already
> are into, or have already moved past).
>
> Eric
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011
> 10:05 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:
> >
> >Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as
> >stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there
> >emerges "decision masking structures" emerge that actively obfuscate
> >the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their
> >ends?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

In reply to this post by Mohammed El-Beltagy

To Mohammed,

I have similar thoughts but rather than a system of Rules I thought of a system of interacting self preoccupied emotions. The agent has a roulette wheel of options with weights assigned randomly to make some choices more common than others, no fixed rules a priori. Let us assume the wheel starts out fair. But emotions add weights without public revelation.

For instance if a choice requires effort it is less likely to be implemented. If a choice requires the sacrifice of resources then again less likely.

If a choice requires some one else’s effort such as an army it is more likely to be implemented. The agent explores emotions and options before making a decision.

It seems that the wheel has numbers for public interest but something extraordinary must happen to unweight such options before an agent sacrifices something. Selfishness does appear to follow some rules but it is unclear how they are arranged.

For instance in a panic situation women with babies are assumed to have a priority but unaccompanied children and women get trampled to death. So the act of sacrifice for children seems suspect. The assumption that women with children have priority suggests that society has such a preference but the way it is selectively implemented is curious. The scoundrel must be aware that others will make sacrifices that he or she is unwilling to make.

Models have been built for simulating panic scenarios perhaps there lies a starting point.

I see a programming difficulty where the outcome of some event must iterated through each agent to get a single outcome.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mohammed El-Beltagy
Sent: May-08-11 5:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

Eric,

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. As complex game of information hiding.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:44 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:

Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as

stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there

emerges "decision masking  structures" emerge that actively obfuscate

the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their

ends?

--
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic

Eric Charles

Re: Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure what the best way to model it would be, or what we would gain from the modeling exercise. Are you talking about something like this?

Institutional review boards (IRBs) oversee research that involves human participants. This body was formed due to laxness/nastiness on the part of biomedical researchers. It was later extended due to (perceived) laxness/nastiness on the part of social science researchers. At first, all they did was to declare studies ethically alright, or not. Later, they were taken over by a number of outside forces, including university's "risk-management" departments. Their main function is now to try to avoid lawsuits, with secondary functions of promoting arbitrary bureaucratic rules and arbitrary whims of committee members. Giving a "pass or fail" on ethics is, at best, a tertiary goal. To make things worse, the lawyers and bureaucracy have actually done a lot to undermine the semblance of ethical stricture they produce.

If this is the type of thing you are talking about, it seems an oddly complex thing to try to model, mostly because it is extremely open-ended. You need 1) agents with different agendas, 2) the ability to assess and usurp rules created by other agents, 3) the ability to force other agents to adopt your rules. Note, also, that in this particular case, the corruption is accomplished by stacking contradictory rules on top of each other. Thus you need 4) an ability to implement contradictory rules, or at least choose between so-called rules. The bigger challenge seems to be figuring out a way to accomplish such a model without in some essential way, pre-programing the outcome (for example, in the way you set agent agendas and allow agents to form new rules).

What variables would be manipulated in the modeling space? What is to be discovered beyond "agents programmed to be self-interested act in their own best interest"? I'm also not sure what this has to do with agents that "actively obfuscate the participatory nature of the democratic decision." So... maybe I'm completely off base. Can you give a concrete example?

Eric

On Sun, May 8, 2011 06:56 AM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric,

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. As complex game of information hiding.

I was thinking along the line of of having a schema for rule creation. The schema here is like a constitution, and players can generate new rules based on that schema to promote their self interest. For rules to become "laws" they have to be the choice on the majority (or subject to some other social choice mechanism), this system allows for group formation and coalition building to get the new rules passed into laws. The interesting bit is how the drive for self interest amongst some of those groups and their coalitions can give rise to rules renders the original schema and/or the social choice mechanism ineffective. By "ineffective", I mean that they yield results and behavior that run counter to the purpose for which they were originally designed.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:44 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2@...> wrote:

I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------

Mohammed,
Being totally unqualified to help you with this problem... it seems interesting to me because most models I know of this sort (social systems models) are about information acquisition and deployment. That is, the modeled critters try to find out stuff, and then they do actions dependent upon what they find. If we are modeling active obfuscation, then we would be doing the opposite - we would be modeling an information-hiding game. Of course, there is lots of game theory work on information hiding in two critter encounters (I'm thinking evolutionary-game-theory-looking-at-deception). I haven't seen anything, though, looking at distributed information hiding.

The idea that you could create a system full of autonomous agents in which information ends up hidden, but no particular individuals have done the hiding, is kind of cool. Seems like the type of thing encryption guys could get into (or already are into, or have already moved past).

Eric

On Fri, May 6, 2011 10:05 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <mohammed@...> wrote:

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard: Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there emerges "decision masking structures" emerge that actively obfuscate the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their ends?

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

Eric and Mohammed,

I don’t think anyone can be Off base at this point in sketching out a scenario. But you might be trying to tackle Goliath in the first round!

Firstly I assume human beings are not very bright, They seem to use extremely simple rules of self satisfaction, though the emotions might be more complicated.

It is not widely accepted but dogs can figure things out as quickly as humans on occasion and there is no wearisome Narrative.

I look at it from the point of view that agents are simple but Stupid . This gave me a headache until I realized that many human beings actually do not know why they did something in particular, then and only then do they invent the Narrative. They are not actually attempting to deceive anyone but simply wish to convince me that they did something for a Good reason. They avoid acknowledging the fact that they did not think.They then drop into the socially acceptable lexicon to explain everything. Often I have remarked that the act of speaking out loud convinces others as well as most importantly the speaker himself.. So the speaker is lying to himself first and then accepts this as his story and probably could pass a lie detector test afterwards.

The fact that narratives are spun is a red herring. They did not know how they made the decision. That frightened the hell out of me in complex engineering projects. I had no way to anticipate human error of this sort. People actually can construct insane scenarios to motivate themselves and then totally forget them. This form of misperception is internal to the brain. I have watched audiences fall for magicians tricks so completely that I have been stunned into disbelief. Yet it is so repeatable. I have seen some references to hidden Blind spots in reason explored by neurologists. Generally I think Biology was too cheap and lazy to give us a completely functional brain. I will be the first to admit to having difficulty with my brain at times.

To cope we have a pervasive belief that we are intelligent in spite of many serious flaws. As a scientist I consider determining the extent of thinking important. I am forced by language to say what I Think for lack of an alternative. I repeat the phrase for more than half a century but still do not understand what it actually means, nor do the philosophers directly address the act. Seems they were more preoccupied by passion in contradiction.

We say Man is a learning animal which implies it progresses somewhat. But I suspect culturally we have found many insidious means to prevent learning. Why ? Is it unconscious. Somewhat like the vexed mother fed up answering questions about the color of the sky and butterflies and moths. Ignorant people are easier to control, suggests history but why?

Let’s build something Stupid (Whimsical and arrogant)rather than Intelligent. If we have no idea what one is how can we answer what the opposite actually entails. An agent should have more than one choice of action and some of those should be utterly insane.

Your institutional Review boards you describe sound as nasty as a Byzantine Palace Intrigue. So let’s start much simpler. For the present the agent should not know what is in his best interest , that is only to be determined by which emotion dominates at any moment. He can make up stories afterwards. I often consider the role of Historians that of making reasonable explanations out of stupid events. The conspiracy theorist will hate this if it bears out.

As for the gains first we waste time looking for reasons where there are none. Next we can find some way of warning individuals not to encourage group think. With near to 7 Billion on this planet maybe it is time to alert ourselves to the flaws in our own brains.; Fear, Gullibility, Conformity, short sighted self interest emotional reasoning. In the early stages I would limit the agents to simply responding and not have them try to become operators of other agents, but that seems to be the goal. Jochen forwarded an interesting article to the group on the ecology of the mind, I have yet to study the material but it looks intriguing .

It is an old joke , but the more people in the room the dumber it gets.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

[hidden email]

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada

(204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064 Cell

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: May-08-11 4:00 PM
To: Mohammed El-Beltagy
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Modeling obfuscation (was - Terrorosity and it's Fruits)

Eric,

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. As complex game of information hiding.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:44 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can't see that this posted, sorry if it is a duplicate --------

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:

Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as

stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there

emerges "decision masking  structures" emerge that actively obfuscate

the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their

ends?