vol 93, issue 22
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Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution mitigation at bare minimum.
-- Peggy Miller, owner/OEO
Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
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It appears that your conclusion was made independent of the facts. Perhaps your conclusion serves some unidentified agenda, could you explain who WE is and how the PRICE TAG is adjusted to effect a specific end? I ecall how the price of cigarettes in Canada was increased to reflect the supposed increased health care costs From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution mitigation at bare minimum. Peggy Miller, owner/OEO Highland Winds Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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:)
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
Vlad, Not sure why Peggy’s comment deserved such a trolllish response. I will join in her view that if we are to base our economy on competition, then the practice of exporting externalities to the neighborhoods and nations of the powerless has to stop. We have to work to find the true cost of products and that needs to be reflected in the price. Then and only then does competition rise above exploitation. I realize that this is not necessarily easy, but if one believes in the market place, it has to be done. By the way, what more do you need to know to demonstrate that cigarette smoking has associated health care costs? Nick Thompson, From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky It appears that your conclusion was made independent of the facts. Perhaps your conclusion serves some unidentified agenda, could you explain who WE is and how the PRICE TAG is adjusted to effect a specific end? I ecall how the price of cigarettes in Canada was increased to reflect the supposed increased health care costs From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution mitigation at bare minimum. Peggy Miller, owner/OEO Highland Winds Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Yes, and no.
Nick, you wrote, "if we are to base our economy on competition, then the practice of exporting externalities ... has to stop" The fact is that if we base our economy on competition, there is every incentive to export externalities. We can, of course, make rules and regulations that attempt to limit those exports. And those who benefit by such exports will look for other ways to export externalities. But I'm sure you and everyone else on this list already know that.
-- Russ
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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This is a weird turn of phrase, to "export externalities". Where
are we exporting them from if they are already, well, external?
Hmph.
Of course we import them as well, for example the flight you take today is safer and cheaper because the complex of airplane manufacturers, airports and regulators conspired to ever more efficiently metabolize the errors that made some poor chump's airplane fall out of the sky 40 years ago. I think this is part of the civilization contract. At some point someone in the future you don't even know will have a better time of it because the civilization learned from something that made your own life less than stellar. There seem to be some folks that believe this can only happen, or happens primarily through markets and competition. I confess that the notion that there is at any given instant a "true cost" or a "true price" for a good or service is seeming to me increasingly quaint. On 3/24/11 9:38 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
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I agree that "export externalities" is a strange phrase. I think the intended meaning is to export costs to the environment to avoid paying for them directly. The obvious example is pollution. The polluter doesn't pay because he exports that cost to the world at large.
Markets and competition to my mind are quite different things. But that's a separate thread. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles Google voice: 747-999-5105 blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ _____________________________________________ On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Ah, but the polluter (the bosses, the bosses they're eating
strawberries and cream!) doesn't give a damn. It's only a "cost"
to those folks in, say, Bhopal, at least during the original time of
export and perhaps not even then until the balloon goes up. The
polluter and her accountants don't even consider it.
On 3/24/11 11:22 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
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That's exactly Nick's point. He says we should make it a cost to the polluter.
-- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles Google voice: 747-999-5105 blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ _____________________________________________ On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:
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And how, dear mice, do you propose to "bell the cat"?
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote: > That's exactly Nick's point. He says we should make it a cost to the > polluter. > > -- Russ Abbott > _____________________________________________ > Professor, Computer Science > California State University, Los Angeles > > Google voice: 747-999-5105 > blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ > vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ > _____________________________________________ > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Ah, but the polluter (the bosses, the bosses they're eating strawberries >> and cream!) doesn't give a damn. It's only a "cost" to those folks in, >> say, Bhopal, at least during the original time of export and perhaps not >> even then until the balloon goes up. The polluter and her accountants don't >> even consider it. >> >> On 3/24/11 11:22 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> >> I agree that "export externalities" is a strange phrase. I think the >> intended meaning is to export costs to the environment to avoid paying for >> them directly. The obvious example is pollution. The polluter doesn't pay >> because he exports that cost to the world at large. >> Markets and competition to my mind are quite different things. But that's >> a separate thread. >> >> >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ >> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> This is a weird turn of phrase, to "export externalities". Where are we >> exporting them from if they are already, well, external? Hmph. >> >> Of course we import them as well, for example the flight you take today >> is safer and cheaper because the complex of airplane manufacturers, airports >> and regulators conspired to ever more efficiently metabolize the errors that >> made some poor chump's airplane fall out of the sky 40 years ago. I think >> this is part of the civilization contract. At some point someone in the >> future you don't even know will have a better time of it because the >> civilization learned from something that made your own life less than >> stellar. >> >> There seem to be some folks that believe this can only happen, or happens >> primarily through markets and competition. I confess that the notion that >> there is at any given instant a "true cost" or a "true price" for a good or >> service is seeming to me increasingly quaint. >> >> On 3/24/11 9:38 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> >> Yes, and no. >> Nick, you wrote, " if we are to base our economy on competition, then the >> practice of exporting externalities ... has to stop " The fact is that if we >> base our economy on competition, there is every incentive to export >> externalities. We can, of course, make rules and regulations that attempt >> to limit those exports. And those who benefit by such exports will look for >> other ways to export externalities. But I'm sure you and everyone else on >> this list already know that. >> >> -- Russ >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Vlad, >> >> >> >> Not sure why Peggy’s comment deserved such a trolllish response. >> >> >> >> I will join in her view that if we are to base our economy on competition, >> then the practice of exporting externalities to the neighborhoods and >> nations of the powerless has to stop. We have to work to find the true cost >> of products and that needs to be reflected in the price. Then and only then >> does competition rise above exploitation. I realize that this is not >> necessarily easy, but if one believes in the market place, it has to be >> done. >> >> >> >> By the way, what more do you need to know to demonstrate that cigarette >> smoking has associated health care costs? >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On >> Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky >> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:21 PM >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 >> >> >> >> It appears that your conclusion was made independent of the facts. Perhaps >> your conclusion serves some unidentified agenda, could you explain who WE is >> and how the PRICE TAG is adjusted to effect a specific end? >> >> I ecall how the price of cigarettes in Canada was increased to reflect the >> supposed increased health care costs >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On >> Behalf Of peggy miller >> Sent: March-24-11 6:12 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 >> >> >> >> Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. >> Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution >> mitigation at bare minimum. >> >> -- >> >> Peggy Miller, owner/OEO >> >> Highland Winds >> wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds >> Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) >> >> Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings >> >> 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) >> Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm >> Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Of course, that's the whole issue. Do we let faceless bureaucrats figure these things out and impose burdensome regulations? Or do we let gangs of rapacious attorneys sue for ruinous damages after the fact? Or is there another way to force consideration of public good into decisions about private gain?
-- rec -- On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Dale Schumacher <[hidden email]> wrote: And how, dear mice, do you propose to "bell the cat"? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
Of course, that's the whole issue. Do we let faceless bureaucrats figure these things out and impose burdensome regulations? Yes, consistently.
Or do we let gangs of rapacious attorneys sue for ruinous damages after the fact? Ibid. Or is there another way to force consideration of public good into decisions about private gain? Balls. Intestinal fortitude. Intelligence. Moral ethics. In other words, no.
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
Thanks, Roger. Well distilled. As to your main question, I think it’s a control system problem. Somehow the thermostat (the board room) needs to be made sensitive to the temperature (the pollution.) Friam would seem to be really well poised to think about this issue. But I think we need a concrete example. Here’s one we might try. In Massachusetts near where we lived was a mill town called Ware. (Brief pause for tiresome plays on words. “Ware? Where? What do they make there, wares? They make wares in Ware by the weirs? Weird!”) All the mill workers lived down in the slot with the mill. The fancy folk, lived up on a hill to the NW of town (prevailing wind, NW), on an Avenue appropriately called, “Church Street”. Now this arrangement is clearly a prescription for mischief. What could we possibly do about it? Roger’s two solutions will have to play a role. Bulldozing the rich folk’s houses and installing a public park on the hill top would help. Never clear to me why class warfare was a bad thing. But to me, the first step is sharply progressive marginal income tax. Why is that moral? Because I assume that, IF a person is rich it is because he has found a way to appropriate public goods and externalize private costs. I keep mulling the concept, “faceless bureaucrat” . Is this the public sector equivalent of the rich guy? A man who never has to follow the regulations he writes. Are there limits to this principle? Do you really want your surgeon to feel the pain of every incision he makes? Nick From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Of course, that's the whole issue. Do we let faceless bureaucrats figure these things out and impose burdensome regulations? Or do we let gangs of rapacious attorneys sue for ruinous damages after the fact? Or is there another way to force consideration of public good into decisions about private gain? -- rec -- On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Dale Schumacher <[hidden email]> wrote: And how, dear mice, do you propose to "bell the cat"?
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What the majority of people do IS the right thing. Wisdom of crowds and so on.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: > Geeze, Nick. > You can't make people do the right thing. People have to want to do the > right thing. People don't want to do the right thing. (Speaking in > majority terms now, minority exceptions don't count). Things won't change > until people change. When will that be? Not in our lifetime, people are > slow learners, and relatively stupid, statistically speaking. We're talking > on the evolutionary time scale before the collective good will come before > the individual profit on this particular spec of the cosmos. > --Doug > BTW, I'm a realist. Not a pessimist, nor an optimist. Roger probably > understands. And Steve. I kind of wonder about some of the rest of you, > though. > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In the absence of a functioning moral compass, I suppose this is a workable definition.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Sarbajit Roy <[hidden email]> wrote: What the majority of people do IS the right thing. Wisdom of crowds and so on. -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Panic over intangibles is the right thing? Promise?
On 3/29/11 11:30 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: In the absence of a functioning moral compass, I suppose this is a workable definition. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Good point, Carl. I really should have said, "In the absence of a functioning moral compass, and a modicum of intelligence..."
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Sarbajit Roy (testing)
Wow! So when a majority of white southerners showed up in their Sunday
finest to watch the weekly lynchings, that was the right thing? I guess you mean "right" in some other sense. N -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 11:26 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 McAfee SiteAdvisor Warning This e-mail message contains potentially unsafe links to these sites: friam.org What the majority of people do IS the right thing. Wisdom of crowds and so on. On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: > Geeze, Nick. > You can't make people do the right thing. People have to want to do > the right thing. People don't want to do the right thing. (Speaking > in majority terms now, minority exceptions don't count). Things won't > change until people change. When will that be? Not in our lifetime, > people are slow learners, and relatively stupid, statistically > speaking. We're talking on the evolutionary time scale before the > collective good will come before the individual profit on this particular spec of the cosmos. > --Doug > BTW, I'm a realist. Not a pessimist, nor an optimist. Roger probably > understands. And Steve. I kind of wonder about some of the rest of > you, though. > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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(Somehow an earlier message of mine got lost in cyberspace.)
I said that you *can* force people to do the right thing, and used the civil rights movement as an example. I often used to hear "You can't legislate morality" which is true, but you can legislate behavior. If you make the penalties for not behaving well strong enough, people start to behave well. Pretty soon it becomes the norm. Did racism go away? Of course not. But those penalties--whether social or legal--against racist behavior are strong enough to make this a better country for most people to live in. Pamela On Mar 29, 2011, at 3:10 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
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I guess our difference (well, ok, *one* of our differences) is that I believe our morality is hardwired, not programmable to any great extent. You can mandate whatever the hell you want, but if enough people disagree with the mandate, it will be ignored or repealed. And then there will be the inevitable backlash.
--Doug
On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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