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violation of causality, etc.

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Nick Thompson

violation of causality, etc.

All,

Re: cause before effect: One night, just before midnight, I got three
email messages from a friend in NZ which my mailer dutifully carried at the
head of my list (most recent) for 24 hours.

Re: evolutionary economics: Has anyboyd read "Second Nature" by Haim Ofek.
Not evolutionary economics in the sense that Russell was speaking, no
doubt, but a heluva ride. I wish somebody else would read it and tell me
what they think.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
nickthompson at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson

> [Original Message]
> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 7/27/2006 7:38:30 AM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51
>
> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> friam at redfish.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> friam-request at redfish.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Nicholas Thompson)
> 2. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Russell Standish)
> 3. Re: Is it economics or biology (Russell Standish)
> 4. Causality violations (Jochen Fromm)
> 5. We meet at 7 pm (Mike Oliker)
> 6. Re: Causality violations (Bill Eldridge)
> 7. Re: Causality violations (Jochen Fromm)
> 8. Re: Causality violations (Russell Standish)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:45:06 -0400
> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
> To: "Russell Standish" <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>, "The Friday Morning
> Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <380-2200674274456252 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Russell,
>
> One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is
> read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave
> excerpts at me or something.
>
> Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A
> group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to have
> been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward Holt,
> who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. Tolman,
> the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the
> cause in my opinion.
>
> The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different
> observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the object
> but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use

terms

> I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people are
> both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 7/27/2006 12:16:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
> >
> > Sort of like I say in my paper "The Importance of the Observer in
> > Science" you mean? Or in my book "Theory of Nothing".
> >
> > (Assuming I have correctly grokked your word "intensional").
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:40:24AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > Robert Holmes writes,
> > >
> > > "So if entropy is emergent and gravity is emergent and any other force
> > > mediated by a subatomic particle is emergent, just how useful is it to
> label
> > > something 'emergent' in this way? If the definition of emergence is so
> > > broad, how can we usefully use it?"
> > >
> > > SOOOOOOOOOO, this seems to suggest that emergence is one of those
> > > properties which are not brick wallk properties of the world except in
> so
> > > far as they are seen from a particular point of view. I.E,

intensional
> > > properties. (sorry everybody). . But now, like Robert, I am
> beginning to
> > > wonder if all properties arent intensional. I mean that was sort of
> > > Einstein's point, wasnt it? I hate it when words I love and concepts
I

> > > live by suddenly crumble in my hands.
> > >
> > > Rushing,
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> >
> > --
> > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > may safely ignore this attachment.
> >
> >
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > Australia
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:02:33 +1000
> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
> To: Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <20060726190233.GB3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:45:06AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > Russell,
> >
> > One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is
> > read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave
> > excerpts at me or something.
>
> That's why the paper might be up your alley. Also Chapter 1 of my book
> is also available at
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks/ToN-chapter1.pdf and is a precis
> of the main argument in the book.
>
> >
> > Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A
> > group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to

have
> > been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward
Holt,
> > who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C.
Tolman,
> > the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the
> > cause in my opinion.
> >
> > The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different
> > observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the
object
> > but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use
terms
> > I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people
are

> > both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer.
>
> No, I hadn't heard of them, but the basic reasoning you mention sounds
> familiar.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> Australia
http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:28:26 +1000
> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is it economics or biology
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <20060726192825.GD3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Like anything in the mainstream press, tantalisingly short on
> detail. I argued back in 1996 that Economics needs to take on an
> evolutionary outlook in a paper that was ultimately published in
> 2000. Indeed, I used the same Mashallian quote mentioned in the article:
>
> Standish, R.K. (2000) ``The Role of Innovation within Economics'', in
> Commerce, Complexity and Evolution, Barnett, W. et al (eds) (Cambridge
> University Press, New York), pp61-79. arXiv:nlin.AO/0007005
>
> The reason why evolutionary economics has not taken off that much is
> that not enough bright minds are focussed on the problem, and
> economics is not the same as biology - excessive use of analogy
> actually clouds understanding.
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 06:40:29PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
> > Of interest to the list, I hope.
> > >From the current issue of The Economist:
> > The Cambrian age of
> >

economics<http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617

>
> > Evolutionary economics is surviving, but not thriving
> >
> > http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
> >
> > -- tj
> >
> > ==========================================
> > J. T. Johnson
> > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> > www.analyticjournalism.com
> > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
> > http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
> >
> > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
> > To change something, build a new model that makes the
> > existing model obsolete."
> > -- Buckminster Fuller
> > ==========================================
>
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
>

>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:37:01 +0200
> From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Causality violations
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <001001c6b157$d509acd0$976fa8c0 at Toshiba>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client
> I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from
> Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook
> displays it in the correct order:
>
> Dates in Outlook
> Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09
> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46
>
> Dates in Thunderbird
> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45
> Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02
>
> Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between
> USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird
> shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible
> before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes
> distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149
>
> -J.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:25:34 -0600
> From: "Mike Oliker" <mike.oliker at comcast.net>
> Subject: [FRIAM] We meet at 7 pm
> To: <ComplexityABQ at yahoogroups.com>, "ACG/Friam ABQ listserv"
> <friam-abq at sandia.gov>, <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <001b01c6b15e$9d660970$0300a8c0 at mikes5100>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> complexity group / chaos club
>
> meeting time: 7 pm Thursday July 27
> meeting place: Mike Oliker's (directions below)
> meeting topic: the article "Antichaos and Adaptation" by Stuart Kauffman.
> The article is
> available online at
> www.covchap.com/articles/antichaos.htm
>
> DIRECTIONS TO MIKE OLIKER'S HOUSE
> 8700 Canyon Run Rd. NE, ABQ, NM 87111
> (505) 821-3407
> mike.oliker at comcast.net
>

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComplexityABQ/post?postID=Eh2Oqly5y1Z8x3inOsN
> lqVIUuRDhqb0SWkjD5ORx1Ij4QirlIwdAaD-Z-o7wLXud1R2GzXbAU1EaHo0Wk4n1_N0>
> I-25 to San Mateo going East.
> Left onto Academy, also going East.
> Go past Wyoming and Wal-Mart's and turn just after St. Joseph Health Stop
> onto Moon.
> Take Moon one block south to Canyon Run. I'm at #8700 2.5 blocks up on
the
> right, with a black mailbox
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:00:52 +0200
> From: Bill Eldridge <dcbill at volny.cz>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <44C88ED4.5040801 at volny.cz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day

early),
> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote
> sender's time.
>
> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on
> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
within

> a second or two.
>
> Jochen Fromm wrote:
> > That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client
> > I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from
> > Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook
> > displays it in the correct order:
> >
> > Dates in Outlook
> > Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09
> > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46
> >
> > Dates in Thunderbird
> > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45
> > Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02
> >
> > Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between
> > USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird
> > shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible
> > before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes
> > distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:11:17 +0200
> From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <001801c6b16d$61f81e00$976fa8c0 at Toshiba>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook
> shows the wrong message order, too.
>
> -J.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On

Behalf
> Of Bill Eldridge
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>
> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day
early),
> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote
> sender's time.
>
> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on
> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
within

> a second or two.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:38:06 +1000
> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <20060727113805.GE3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I do autosyncronise my computers clock with NTP. Where it all goes
> pear shaped is that I send mail from Linux running on VMWare running
> on top of Windows. Everytime windows hibernates, VMWare's clock gets
> screwed up.
>
> I have a menu item that connects to NTP and syncronise's Linux's
> clock, but that requires me to remember to run it, and it doesn't
> always work - even when I am online...
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:11:17PM +0200, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> >
> > Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook
> > shows the wrong message order, too.
> >
> > -J.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On

Behalf
> > Of Bill Eldridge
> > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
> >
> > I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day
early),
> > and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the
remote
> > sender's time.
> >
> > Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers
on
> > networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
within

> > a second or two.
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
>

>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Friam mailing list
> Friam at redfish.com
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> End of Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51
> *************************************

Carl Tollander

violation of causality, etc.

Perhaps this will have been related to the Thiotimoline effect,
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiotimoline
First identified in Issac Asimov's 1948 paper,
"The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline".

Carl

Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> All,
>
> Re: cause before effect: One night, just before midnight, I got three
> email messages from a friend in NZ which my mailer dutifully carried at the
> head of my list (most recent) for 24 hours.
>
> Re: evolutionary economics: Has anyboyd read "Second Nature" by Haim Ofek.
> Not evolutionary economics in the sense that Russell was speaking, no
> doubt, but a heluva ride. I wish somebody else would read it and tell me
> what they think.
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
>> To: <friam at redfish.com>
>> Date: 7/27/2006 7:38:30 AM
>> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51
>>
>> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
>> friam at redfish.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> friam-request at redfish.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> friam-owner at redfish.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Nicholas Thompson)
>> 2. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Russell Standish)
>> 3. Re: Is it economics or biology (Russell Standish)
>> 4. Causality violations (Jochen Fromm)
>> 5. We meet at 7 pm (Mike Oliker)
>> 6. Re: Causality violations (Bill Eldridge)
>> 7. Re: Causality violations (Jochen Fromm)
>> 8. Re: Causality violations (Russell Standish)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:45:06 -0400
>> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
>> To: "Russell Standish" <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>, "The Friday Morning
>> Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <380-2200674274456252 at earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> Russell,
>>
>> One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is
>> read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave
>> excerpts at me or something.
>>
>> Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A
>> group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to have
>> been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward Holt,
>> who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. Tolman,
>> the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the
>> cause in my opinion.
>>
>> The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different
>> observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the object
>> but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use
>>
> terms
>
>> I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people are
>> both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> nickthompson at earthlink.net
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>>
>>
>>
>>> [Original Message]
>>> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
>>> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
>>>
>> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>>> Date: 7/27/2006 12:16:09 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
>>>
>>> Sort of like I say in my paper "The Importance of the Observer in
>>> Science" you mean? Or in my book "Theory of Nothing".
>>>
>>> (Assuming I have correctly grokked your word "intensional").
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:40:24AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert Holmes writes,
>>>>
>>>> "So if entropy is emergent and gravity is emergent and any other force
>>>> mediated by a subatomic particle is emergent, just how useful is it to
>>>>
>> label
>>
>>>> something 'emergent' in this way? If the definition of emergence is so
>>>> broad, how can we usefully use it?"
>>>>
>>>> SOOOOOOOOOO, this seems to suggest that emergence is one of those
>>>> properties which are not brick wallk properties of the world except in
>>>>
>> so
>>
>>>> far as they are seen from a particular point of view. I.E,
>>>>
> intensional
>
>>>> properties. (sorry everybody). . But now, like Robert, I am
>>>>
>> beginning to
>>
>>>> wonder if all properties arent intensional. I mean that was sort of
>>>> Einstein's point, wasnt it? I hate it when words I love and concepts
>>>>
> I
>
>>>> live by suddenly crumble in my hands.
>>>>
>>>> Rushing,
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>> nickthompson at earthlink.net
>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
>>> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
>>> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
>>> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
>>> may safely ignore this attachment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
>>> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
>>> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
>>> Australia
>>>
>> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
>>
>>> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>>>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:02:33 +1000
>> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47
>> To: Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <20060726190233.GB3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:45:06AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Russell,
>>>
>>> One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is
>>> read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave
>>> excerpts at me or something.
>>>
>> That's why the paper might be up your alley. Also Chapter 1 of my book
>> is also available at
>> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks/ToN-chapter1.pdf and is a precis
>> of the main argument in the book.
>>
>>
>>> Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A
>>> group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to
>>>
> have
>
>>> been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward
>>>
> Holt,
>
>>> who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C.
>>>
> Tolman,
>
>>> the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the
>>> cause in my opinion.
>>>
>>> The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different
>>> observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the
>>>
> object
>
>>> but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use
>>>
> terms
>
>>> I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people
>>>
> are
>
>>> both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer.
>>>
>> No, I hadn't heard of them, but the basic reasoning you mention sounds
>> familiar.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
>> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
>> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
>> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
>> may safely ignore this attachment.
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
>> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
>> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
>> Australia
>>
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
>
>> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:28:26 +1000
>> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is it economics or biology
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <20060726192825.GD3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Like anything in the mainstream press, tantalisingly short on
>> detail. I argued back in 1996 that Economics needs to take on an
>> evolutionary outlook in a paper that was ultimately published in
>> 2000. Indeed, I used the same Mashallian quote mentioned in the article:
>>
>> Standish, R.K. (2000) ``The Role of Innovation within Economics'', in
>> Commerce, Complexity and Evolution, Barnett, W. et al (eds) (Cambridge
>> University Press, New York), pp61-79. arXiv:nlin.AO/0007005
>>
>> The reason why evolutionary economics has not taken off that much is
>> that not enough bright minds are focussed on the problem, and
>> economics is not the same as biology - excessive use of analogy
>> actually clouds understanding.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 06:40:29PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> Of interest to the list, I hope.
>>> >From the current issue of The Economist:
>>> The Cambrian age of
>>>
>>>
> economics<http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
>
>>> Evolutionary economics is surviving, but not thriving
>>>
>>> http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
>>>
>>> -- tj
>>>
>>> ==========================================
>>> J. T. Johnson
>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>>> www.analyticjournalism.com
>>> 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
>>> http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
>>>
>>> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
>>> To change something, build a new model that makes the
>>> existing model obsolete."
>>> -- Buckminster Fuller
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>
>> --
>> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
>> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
>> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
>> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
>> may safely ignore this attachment.
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
>> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
>> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
>> Australia
>>
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
>
>> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:37:01 +0200
>> From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de>
>> Subject: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <001001c6b157$d509acd0$976fa8c0 at Toshiba>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>> That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client
>> I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from
>> Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook
>> displays it in the correct order:
>>
>> Dates in Outlook
>> Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09
>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46
>>
>> Dates in Thunderbird
>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45
>> Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02
>>
>> Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between
>> USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird
>> shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible
>> before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes
>> distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:25:34 -0600
>> From: "Mike Oliker" <mike.oliker at comcast.net>
>> Subject: [FRIAM] We meet at 7 pm
>> To: <ComplexityABQ at yahoogroups.com>, "ACG/Friam ABQ listserv"
>> <friam-abq at sandia.gov>, <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <001b01c6b15e$9d660970$0300a8c0 at mikes5100>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> complexity group / chaos club
>>
>> meeting time: 7 pm Thursday July 27
>> meeting place: Mike Oliker's (directions below)
>> meeting topic: the article "Antichaos and Adaptation" by Stuart Kauffman.
>> The article is
>> available online at
>> www.covchap.com/articles/antichaos.htm
>>
>> DIRECTIONS TO MIKE OLIKER'S HOUSE
>> 8700 Canyon Run Rd. NE, ABQ, NM 87111
>> (505) 821-3407
>> mike.oliker at comcast.net
>>
>>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComplexityABQ/post?postID=Eh2Oqly5y1Z8x3inOsN
>
>> lqVIUuRDhqb0SWkjD5ORx1Ij4QirlIwdAaD-Z-o7wLXud1R2GzXbAU1EaHo0Wk4n1_N0>
>> I-25 to San Mateo going East.
>> Left onto Academy, also going East.
>> Go past Wyoming and Wal-Mart's and turn just after St. Joseph Health Stop
>> onto Moon.
>> Take Moon one block south to Canyon Run. I'm at #8700 2.5 blocks up on
>>
> the
>
>> right, with a black mailbox
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>>
> /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060727/8d3344f8/attachment-0001.h
> tml
>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:00:52 +0200
>> From: Bill Eldridge <dcbill at volny.cz>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <44C88ED4.5040801 at volny.cz>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day
>>
> early),
>
>> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote
>> sender's time.
>>
>> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on
>> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
>>
> within
>
>> a second or two.
>>
>> Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>>> That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client
>>> I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from
>>> Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook
>>> displays it in the correct order:
>>>
>>> Dates in Outlook
>>> Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09
>>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46
>>>
>>> Dates in Thunderbird
>>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45
>>> Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02
>>>
>>> Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between
>>> USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird
>>> shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible
>>> before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes
>>> distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:11:17 +0200
>> From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <001801c6b16d$61f81e00$976fa8c0 at Toshiba>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook
>> shows the wrong message order, too.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
>>
> Behalf
>
>> Of Bill Eldridge
>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>>
>> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day
>>
> early),
>
>> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote
>> sender's time.
>>
>> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on
>> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
>>
> within
>
>> a second or two.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:38:06 +1000
>> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Message-ID: <20060727113805.GE3019 at hells-dell.localdomain>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> I do autosyncronise my computers clock with NTP. Where it all goes
>> pear shaped is that I send mail from Linux running on VMWare running
>> on top of Windows. Everytime windows hibernates, VMWare's clock gets
>> screwed up.
>>
>> I have a menu item that connects to NTP and syncronise's Linux's
>> clock, but that requires me to remember to run it, and it doesn't
>> always work - even when I am online...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:11:17PM +0200, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook
>>> shows the wrong message order, too.
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
>>>
> Behalf
>
>>> Of Bill Eldridge
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations
>>>
>>> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day
>>>
> early),
>
>>> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the
>>>
> remote
>
>>> sender's time.
>>>
>>> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers
>>>
> on
>
>>> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to
>>>
> within
>
>>> a second or two.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>
>> --
>> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
>> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
>> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
>> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
>> may safely ignore this attachment.
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
>> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
>> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
>> Australia
>>
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
>
>> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Friam mailing list
>> Friam at redfish.com
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>>
>> End of Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51
>> *************************************
>>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
>