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the woman behind the woman

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Marcus G. Daniels

the woman behind the woman

She had the right idea about FORMAC. Only a reality now with systems like SymPy 50 years later. But an evolved FORMAC would have been better, as it would have been a high performance numerics language too.

http://www.pl-enthusiast.net/2017/05/24/jean-sammet-a-remembrance/

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Barry MacKichan

Re: the woman behind the woman

This triggers some personal memories. I have a letter from her, basically a rejection letter, saying I couldn’t have a summer job with them (Boston Advanced Programming group) until I finished my second year in college. Although I don’t remember ever hearing the name of the project, one of the IBMers described it to me as “like Fortran, but symbolic rather than purely numeric.” Clearly it was FORMAC.

I always assumed Jean Sammet was a (French) man, but now, 55 years later, I see “(Miss)” written before her signature.

By the next summer, I had pretty much dropped my interest in computers and spent the summer paddling a canoe to Hudson Bay and it took me about 20 years to get back into software.

--Barry

On 4 Jun 2017, at 11:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:

She had the right idea about FORMAC. Only a reality now with systems like SymPy 50 years later. But an evolved FORMAC would have been better, as it would have been a high performance numerics language too.

http://www.pl-enthusiast.net/2017/05/24/jean-sammet-a-remembrance/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

Macsyma can generate Fortran, but Macsyma is itself is Common Lisp. A few years ago there was the Fortress project out of Sun, but it was shut down shortly after the Oracle acquisition. Fortress was looking more and more like Haskell as it progressed. A symbolic math package implemented in Fortress would have been roughly a modern FORMAC. There’s plenty of serviceable Python for these things, but without the unifying vision and compiler know-how.

I wonder what life was like as a working programmer at IBM in those days. I assume it was depressingly regimented and the real hackers who could take something like this on were at the ivy league schools?

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I always assumed Jean Sammet was a (French) man, but now, 55 years later, I see “(Miss)” written before her signature.

By the next summer, I had pretty much dropped my interest in computers and spent the summer paddling a canoe to Hudson Bay and it took me about 20 years to get back into software.

--Barry

On 4 Jun 2017, at 11:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:

She had the right idea about FORMAC. Only a reality now with systems like SymPy 50 years later. But an evolved FORMAC would have been better, as it would have been a high performance numerics language too.

http://www.pl-enthusiast.net/2017/05/24/jean-sammet-a-remembrance/

Steve Smith

Re: the woman behind the woman

Marcus sed:
I wonder what life was like as a working programmer at IBM in those days. I assume it was depressingly regimented and the real hackers who could take something like this on were at the ivy league schools?

I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)... He was solicited by IBM to come to NMTech as the human "analyst" attached to the IBM they had sold to Stirling Colgate who was leading that charge in those days. Before he could actually begin his work, but had already relocated, DEC got to Stirling and they dropped IBM for a DEC machine, like the gentlemen duelists IBM and DEC were at the time, my friend was "gifted" to DEC by IBM... "ah the pleasures of being chattel, or at least an indentured servant!". He stayed with DEC until retirement, taking a few years sabbatical to work at a startup which sold out big enough to give him room to then singlehandedly build a PASCAL compiler and P-Code interpreter for the pre-DOS IBM PC and even declined an offer from Bill Gates himself for packaging it with DOS, that included royalties... he felt it wasn't finished and besides, he didn't think much of Gates and didn't think he was really going anywhere.

One of his more influential professors was Minsky himself... he found him a bit "droll" as I remember.

On 6/5/17 10:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I wonder what life was like as a working programmer at IBM in those days. I assume it was depressingly regimented and the real hackers who could take something like this on were at the ivy league schools?

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 9:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

This triggers some personal memories. I have a letter from her, basically a rejection letter, saying I couldn’t have a summer job with them (Boston Advanced Programming group) until I finished my second year in college. Although I don’t remember ever hearing the name of the project, one of the IBMers described it to me as “like Fortran, but symbolic rather than purely numeric.” Clearly it was FORMAC.

I always assumed Jean Sammet was a (French) man, but now, 55 years later, I see “(Miss)” written before her signature.

By the next summer, I had pretty much dropped my interest in computers and spent the summer paddling a canoe to Hudson Bay and it took me about 20 years to get back into software.

--Barry

On 4 Jun 2017, at 11:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:

She had the right idea about FORMAC. Only a reality now with systems like SymPy 50 years later. But an evolved FORMAC would have been better, as it would have been a high performance numerics language too.

http://www.pl-enthusiast.net/2017/05/24/jean-sammet-a-remembrance/

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

Steve writes:

“I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html

“In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no settled culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a contemporary of Ms. Sammet’s at IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly three decades, observed, “They took anyone who seemed to have an aptitude for problem-solving skills — bridge players, chess players, even women.”

Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals that had the right priorities and didn’t leave the computer lab for mere lectures and classwork! How else can one develop the proper skills? (Oh, I suppose there are impressionable young people on this list who I should not contaminate with these subversive ideas.)

Marcus

Steve Smith

Re: the woman behind the woman

Today young people needn't leave their books and classrooms for the computer lab, they can simply shift from playing video games and chatting on social media and watching "stupid trick" youtube videos to programming/hacking on their own computer/internet. Well many of them anyway.

Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!

On 6/5/17 10:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Steve writes:

“I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html

“In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no settled culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a contemporary of Ms. Sammet’s at IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly three decades, observed, “They took anyone who seemed to have an aptitude for problem-solving skills — bridge players, chess players, even women.”

Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals that had the right priorities and didn’t leave the computer lab for mere lectures and classwork! How else can one develop the proper skills? (Oh, I suppose there are impressionable young people on this list who I should not contaminate with these subversive ideas.)

Marcus
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gepr

Re: the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email. If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or somesuch.

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Owen Densmore

Re: the woman behind the woman

Administrator

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Unfortunately, my experience w/ IBM whilst at Xerox (1970-78) was that a small cave of IBM 360s were used in a highly secure building while all the free spirits were using Fortran, Ratfor (Bell labs c-like rational fortran transpiler), APL, bcpl (on the Altos). We found it easy to work with DEC, HP, Kodak and other research outfits, but not IBM.

We did have success with them when building a tiny 1Mb ethernet chip .. which we used in copiers .. the usual ethernets were 10Mb by then. IBM thought we were crazy. Literally.

And then half-way thru my stay there, TCP/IP exploded on the scene and we all transferred from our internal PARC suite to it. Took a while to convert but because we use ethernet from the beginning with home-made protocols, the conversion wasn't that bad.

In that period, the IBM systems were way slow to join the party. They preferred various "Star" networks that naturally had a server in the middle.

But that may have been Xerox .. afterall they made the Sigma systems so those were preferred while the 360s remained behind locked doors. Their network was sneaker-net with tapes.

When I went to Apple, IBM also literally laughed at Jobs. Ha! Sun also had difficulty with IBM, they couldn't grok Unix, and "knew better". So we built proxies to work around them but in isolation.

All this is too bad because they had great tech in certain areas, and coopetition is a Good Thing.

-- Owen

Pamela McCorduck

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Striking for me to go to labs now (for those still exist) and hear the quiet. Computer labs in the beginning were rackety. Almost unbearably so.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2017, at 9:58 AM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Today young people needn't leave their books and classrooms for the computer lab, they can simply shift from playing video games and chatting on social media and watching "stupid trick" youtube videos to programming/hacking on their own computer/internet. Well many of them anyway.

Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!

On 6/5/17 10:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Steve writes:

“I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html

“In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no settled culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a contemporary of Ms. Sammet’s at IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly three decades, observed, “They took anyone who seemed to have an aptitude for problem-solving skills — bridge players, chess players, even women.”

Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals that had the right priorities and didn’t leave the computer lab for mere lectures and classwork! How else can one develop the proper skills? (Oh, I suppose there are impressionable young people on this list who I should not contaminate with these subversive ideas.)

Marcus
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by gepr

How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring Society evolve without a shared environment?

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?

Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:59 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email. If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or somesuch.

☣ glen

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gepr

Re: the woman behind the woman

I have no idea. Stuff like this helps, though: https://www.instagram.com/inconvergent/

On 06/05/2017 10:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring Society<https://murdercube.com/files/Computers/Heroes%20of%20the%20Computer%20Revolution/Hackers%20(Stephen%20Levy)/part1/chapter5.html> evolve without a shared environment?

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets the wheels turning. This trend toward public github & portfolios I think leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search and occult representations. I guess young people have to get `out there' to get into the market, but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in public.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I have no idea. Stuff like this helps, though: https://www.instagram.com/inconvergent/

On 06/05/2017 10:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring Society<https://murdercube.com/files/Computers/Heroes%20of%20the%20Computer%20Revolution/Hackers%20(Stephen%20Levy)/part1/chapter5.html> evolve without a shared environment?

--
☣ glen

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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gepr

Re: the woman behind the woman

I share your worry. But when I hear myself say it, it sounds like "Get off my lawn!" Perhaps evolution is (will be) faster with more stumbling around in public? The mind is dead. Long live the hive.

On 06/05/2017 10:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets the wheels turning. This trend toward public github & portfolios I think leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search and occult representations. I guess young people have to get `out there' to get into the market, but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in public.

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

Hmm. I think "The Mind" will still be present at universities, and it will be mocking "The Hive" while being relatively uninvolved. I don't object to the stumbling but I do object to driving the time window of performance down toward zero and toward an audience that has an unsophisticated way of judging things. "Did you make a pretty web page? Yes or no?" In contrast a lab (or a computer enthusiast group) develops a more complex and nuanced gestalt. It's a question of what kind of people are driving the field forward. I think the field is much richer now, but is in the hands of a less diverse and less engaged class of drivers. Maybe that is just "Get off my lawn!" or endless Gore Vidal type whining. I don't know.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:55 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I share your worry. But when I hear myself say it, it sounds like "Get off my lawn!" Perhaps evolution is (will be) faster with more stumbling around in public? The mind is dead. Long live the hive.

On 06/05/2017 10:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets the wheels turning. This trend toward public github & portfolios I think leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search and occult representations. I guess young people have to get `out there' to get into the market, but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in public.

--
☣ glen

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Steve Smith

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by gepr

Or even something we don't know about yet!

I have had my 30-something colleagues ask me to sign up for things I
can't remember because "that is the main place they can be found". I'd
like to shake my fist and say "get off my lawn!" to them but I don't
even know if they know what a lawn is, or what the gesture of
fist-shaking means!

On 6/5/17 10:59 AM, glen ☣ wrote:
> On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!
> Much less use email. If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or somesuch.
>

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things). Before I could construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files. Now it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value. All for the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main place". Damned kids running around.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 2:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Or even something we don't know about yet!

I have had my 30-something colleagues ask me to sign up for things I can't remember because "that is the main place they can be found". I'd like to shake my fist and say "get off my lawn!" to them but I don't even know if they know what a lawn is, or what the gesture of fist-shaking means!

On 6/5/17 10:59 AM, glen ☣ wrote:
> On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!
> Much less use email. If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or somesuch.
>

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gepr

Re: the woman behind the woman

This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/

On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things). Before I could construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files. Now it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value. All for the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main place". Damned kids running around.

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I found my nephew's engagement in WoW back in the day (8 years ago now?) to be every bit as real to him as a physical world, especially with the realtime audio feeds among his team-mates online. They jumped in and out of WoW as reluctantly as kids came home from "kick the can" at dusk in my generation (I never had that, not living in "neighborhoods" but do understand the lore/lure of it all).

I don't know if media-enriched social media meet that goal. My own field which I have begun to abandon as irrelevant (in the sense that all I knew and built "back in the day" is being re-invented from the angle of social media) seems to be coming to fruit. I don't know if young people hang out in VR headsets, talking to one another's avatars or sharing their virtual (or real, telepresent) spaces or not... I'm kinda guessing not, but I bet that is coming... maybe once headsets become as non-invasive as reading glasses or contact lenses. Remember the early days of bluetooth headsets when wankers sitting near you in a bar or coffee shop would reach up and touch their ear and then start talking loudly (and often belligerently) to a ghost sitting across from them? It was fukkin eerie, even though I understood the tech down to the gnats ass and had even worked with vaguely similar technology long before it's prime time. It was the cultural shift that threw me, not the technolgical.

My own work in collective intelligence (2001 ALife: Johnson, Rasmussen, et alia) did not verge on collective consciousness much less collective wisdom nor collective soulfulness, but I believe such a thing exists and it will be people like Krista Tippet (On Being) in the range of conversations she curates in her radio/podcast show "On Being" and the "Civil Conversations" project it cohabitates with. Her recent interview with Brian Greene stands in stark contrast but simultaneously starkly familiar style and meaning with her interview with the (former?) right wing shock jock "Glenn Beck"...

just sayin'
- Steve

How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring Society evolve without a shared environment?

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?

Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:59 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email. If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or somesuch.

--

☣ glen

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by gepr

Somehow they didn't get the memo about the World Wide Web.

(And see Owen's earlier post about Facebook. Yes.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/

On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things). Before I could construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files. Now it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value. All for the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main place". Damned kids running around.

☣ glen

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Steve Smith

Re: the woman behind the woman

In reply to this post by gepr

I wish I had a copy of LANL's first "home" page... modeled vaguely on
TBLs page of which www.lanl.gov and xxx.lanl.gov showed up around #50 in
his links out at that time. It looked a lot like this. The wayback
machine seems only able to cough up things back to a year or two later
after I'd gotten *most of* the stakeholders at LANL to at least *think
about* what the relevance of their charter was to the Web (or vice-versa).

Go Cosma!

On 6/5/17 3:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote:
> This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/
>
> On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things). Before I could construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files. Now it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value. All for the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main place". Damned kids running around.

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