Carl/Eric -
Rabbit Holes R Us!
Thanks for the great offering of parallax here. I feel that this group/list often defaults to a somewhat analytical stance and tries to drill down, zoom in, decompose the things we discuss while there are always aspects of the topic with are best deferred to applications of parallax and synthesis (or some of each, annealing style?)...
This topic, of unfamiliar languages and language forms and the
cultures they developed within, provides us with some "instant
parallax" I believe. If I had my life to live over again, I
think I would choose (knowing what I know now) to try to be/come
multicultural.
- Steve
Great question! Busy week, tho. We might look at related kanji (my favorite is the kanji characters for gate and ma), the system of radicals, and various systems for transliteration (romaji, Hepburn, etc) and different systems for pronouncing the same kanji, and how all those interlace.
It is quite the rabbit hole. Consider:and
The last question is even better and I will have some thoughts there later, but as I say, busy week.
C
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...
My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji I was struck by how intrinsic the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are. Pictograms are more "visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual grounding of language. It seems that Logographic writing mixes Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words) as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana). Of course, having metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.
I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)
- Steve
On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Carl,
Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book
The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound after the author's death, 1918.
I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why he was wrong.
You might enjoy it.
davew
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
Dave,
Thanks, not there yet. Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.
The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some opportunity for self-reflection. A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.
Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about the English language and the nature of translation. One of the works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional" arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters". (note -- she doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than obeisance.
C
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.
davew
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Carl -
Acknowledged. The foreground/background thing is always tricky. I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion. Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?
- Steve
Steve,
You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal freedoms". Perhaps that is unwarranted. I just see no reason to be an ass.
>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms. That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Carl Tollander wrote:
-9,-8.1
But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.
Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.
I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for themselves. My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* . When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was more seduced by some of that. Now it just makes me feel systemically ill.
I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their personal freedoms. That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
- Steve
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships. I don’t think this inclination is overtly authoritarian. However, a strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in (say) the church. When a social network is more important than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen. Wired has an article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim.
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.
Is that due to demographic sorting? In more prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”. But when those who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had caused them to stay behind?
On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian. If that is true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure way. And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie Sanders.
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is? Something MUST be wrong, here.
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
Econ left/right: -0.88
Social Lib/Auth: -6.1
davew
NOT a Libertarian
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
Do we all agree at an insanely high level? Then wtf have we been arguing about all these years. Let’s wait until Glen and Dave take the test before we bury all our hatchets.
n
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the whole graph.
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on social issues
George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671
My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.
"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
left-libertarian.
Take the test here if you are interested:
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