Posted by
Steve Smith on
Aug 07, 2020; 1:12am
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/curiosities-tp7598125p7598176.html
Glen/Dave -
I propose that we consider two axes: Authority and Violence.
Authority can have different qualities, such as governance vs religious
vs rational vs social... and Violence can vary from physical threat to
financial threat to rejection and shaming.
I agree generally with Glen's analysis of population density and
conformity. I'm not sure, however, that conformity need be to a
single/universal standard. While there has to be some sort of universal
"floor" to certain behaviours, there can be a lot of diversity within
subgroups. But *only* if they are self-policing.
I submit two hot-button issues that traditionally divide Left from Right
and possibly illuminate the self-policing issue: Abortion and Gun Rights.
The Pro Choice community has, for the most part, struggled hard for 60
years to make Abortion "safe, legal, and rare" with some exceptions and
extrema of some subgroups perhaps overplaying their hand and verging
toward eugenics. I would claim that they (especially groups like
Planned Parenthood) have been pretty good at self-policing. Very few,
if any, proponents are advocating for anything more than making
abortions "safe, legal and rare" for women.
The Gun Rights community IMO, has gone the other way. I grew up knowing
the NRA as the "sponsors" of the "Hunter Safety Course" that most if not
all young men and women were expected (by their parents) to go through
before they were allowed to handle firearms unsupervised. By the
mid-90s the NRA was in full-swing as an industry lobby organization
trying to open regulations and increase demand (and supply) for
upgrading every home's arsenal by a factor of N. In my youth, a home
arsenal consisted of an open-sight deer rifle, a shotgun for birding,
and maybe a revolver (capacity 6, hard to reload) for home-protection.
The NRA and gun lobby would like us to believe we all need one or
several of the following: Scoped sniper-capable rifles; military grade
assault (AK/AR/Tec/etc.) rifles *detuned* to be semi-automatic (but
ready for hell-fire triggers and bump-stocks), and semi-auto handguns
(>>6 rounds) designed very specifically for close quarters firefights
against multiple assailants.
Meanwhile the NRA and affiliates are promoting everything from
ubiquitous open and/or closed public carry and "stand your ground" laws,
not just allowing but *encouraging* individuals to be publicly
aggressive with their "right to bear arms". While many of the
*individuals* I know who are very pro-Gun may be convincingly "safe and
sane" in their approach to gun ownership. Nevertheless, the Right and
the NRA have convinced them that they must turn a blind eye to others
who they and I know to be downright unsafe and hostile with their gun
ownership. Of the people I grew up among (through age 12), one of
their fathers made the national TV in the 80s wearing matched .45s in a
shoulder holster threatening to shoot any "Fed trespassing on my ranch!"
(which meant, USFS employees entering the USFS "grazing allotments"
adjoining (but not including) his private property to verify that he was
adhering to the conditions of his grazing permit on *public lands*.
Another younger brother of a friend of mine had by his mid 20s shot his
wife, children and himself when his wife tried to leave him. This is
from a county of 600. Something seems to have changed, and definitely
not for the better. And the belligerence that seems to come too often
with gun-ownership had a lot to do with it.
I've been tongue-lashed by the PC crowd for things I may or may not have
done/said that were not within their idea of "conformance" and while I
might still smart from some of those lashings, the childhood taunt
"sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me"
resonate. In some (many?) cases, I learned something new from that
pushback... in other (few) cases, I was given the opportunity to educate
an overzealous PC person on the finer details of their own
mis-judgements. If I ever actually hurt or offended someone *directly*
I think I corrected myself as quickly as possible and tried to make up
for any harm done.
On the grand stage, I too am worried about "one size fits all"
globalized authoritarianism, whether it be from self-serving
self-righteous fascist authoritarians or overzealous, high-minded,
social progressives. But frankly, I believe I can work with the latter,
while the only options for the former seem to be to "throw in with them
and lose my soul" or "confront and defeat them and thereby risk losing
my soul by becoming them". A friend of mine used to offer his (very
conservative by wryly witty) father's aphorism. "half the politicians
are trying to take my money and give it to the poor, and the other half
are trying to take it and keep it for themselves!" If we had to take
this at face value, I think most everyone would agree on who was "giving
it to the poor" and who was "keeping it for themselves".
The bad actors and strongmen of "Leftist" totalitarian governments have
a LOT more in common with their "rightist" counterparts than they do
with the "leftist" rabble. I find Trump's boogeyman Antifa (or perhaps
noveau-Black Panthers) *much* less threatening to me and mine than the
various Militias and White Nationalists and Trump (or
Erdogan/Duterte/Putin/Bolsonaro) backed LEO likely to take exception to
something I am doing (or being).
I have my issues with well-meaning fools (such as myself), but they
don't hold a candle to the other kind.
just my $.02,
- Steve
> OK. That makes sense. It's possible I simply can't see far/deep enough to get past the *extant* right wing extremism I see all around the world, including federal troops on the streets of Olympia to kidnap "woke" protesters as well as what's happening in Poland, Turkey, Russia, etc. It's possible that this real and current right wing violence is the last throes of whatever power the right wingers might wield.
>
> I doubt that. But it's possible.
>
> And given that, turning back to "woke" vs. "leftist" for a minute, that your (radical) affect at a university would no longer be tolerated *might* be a sign of some sort of cultural homogeny ... a whack-a-mole game where the nail sticking up gets hammered back down. And if that turns out to be true, I'm definitely on your side. But I don't think it's true. The evidence I see argues for the death of the university, not any kind of "woke tyranny". All over the map, schools have been suffering. The virus has accelerated it. Brilliant youngsters are rejecting college for a whole constellation of reasons. But re: your personal affect, have you considered Heterodox?
https://heterodoxacademy.org/ They seem affine to your sentiments.
>
> As for "woke" people in other contexts, it seems like you're objecting to a symptom of population density more than anything else. As people squeeze together, we need appropriate social norms ... norms that reduce and avoid the flare ups that come from our slowly evolving biology bathed in rapidly evolving culture. E.g. Renee' argues that, despite my belief we should "grow up, not out", she and I couldn't live in an apartment/condo for the last 20 or so years because we play our music too loud, too often ... our neighbors' biology would flare up and they'd find ways to remove us. So we live in a house where our neighbors can escape the nuisance that is us with pillows and such. You (like us) have been privileged to live in sparsely populated places, where your *behavior* can be largely tolerated.
>
> If you simply follow the sparsely populated regions as they shrink, you'll be fine. But if you want to "grow up, not out", which is necessary for most of us if we want a healthy planet without severe population control, then you'll have to *conform*. Line from a country song: "If a man can't piss in his own front yard, he lives too close to town." This isn't tyranny. It's density. It's social intelligence. Context is Queen. Know where you are and know what you can get away with given your context. The days of stomping around saying whatever the hell we want, doing whatever we want, killing others because they cheat at cards, etc. ... those days are over. You can either adapt or spend the rest of your life isolated and frustrated.
>
> On 8/5/20 3:42 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>> Glen,
>>
>> A round about way to address your blown mind about my — apparent — lack of concern about the threat from the right.
>>
>> Although I try very hard to avoid it, my views at the general are inevitably colored by my experiences at the personal.
>>
>> I (quite literally) took up arms against the government fifty years ago. My reasons then, and my continuing perspective, has consequences. Two contrasting examples: 1) empathy for others who feel that the feds are an oppressive and unreasonable force in their lives and may have seen Trump as a countervailing force; 2) antipathy with regard current protests/protesters who are, ultimately and in my studied opinion, advocating changes that would enhance and increase governmental control.
>>
>> My first ten years as an academic, obtaining tenure and the rank of full professor, was at a very conservative Catholic university. It was not my day job (which was graduate software development) but I taught undergraduate cultural anthropology there for six years. That course in particular, but other opportunities to teach inter-disciplinary honors courses, afforded an opportunity to "offend" my colleagues and the prevailing Catholic orthodoxy on a regular basis. I did not shy from those opportunities. My publications, my syllabi, my public comments aroused the ire of many colleagues, but I was never threatened, was never concerned with regard my job or my professional status. In contrast, I could not teach the exact same material today in almost any public university without being crucified and fired. The facts did not change, but the prevailing orthodoxy did.
>>
>> I used to worry — a lot — about the possibility of a theocracy arising in the US. Trump pretty much destroyed that possibility by 1) wresting control of the Republican party from the religious-right; and 2) exposing the idiocy and hypocrisy of the "religious" in a way from which they will, IMO, never recover.
>>
>> Now I worry about a politically correct secular-ocracy that makes the government — *_necessarily_* *representing a minority of the populace* — the ultimate arbitrator of thought and behavior for all.
>>
>> So, I am not concerned about the "right" because I see them as an already defeated non-entity; cowards and isolationists, with no possibility of obtaining the power, discipline, or will necessary to impose themselves on me. I fear the exact opposite with regard the "left."
>>
>> If Biden is elected in the fall, the armed crazies that everyone seems to be so concerned about will melt away to their remote enclaves and inbred sanctuaries and nothing much else will happen. "/Trump as existential threat to democracy"/ will fade away as just another collective hysteria like "stranger danger" and recovered memories of satanic child abuse cults.
>>
>> Personally I will feel increasingly oppressed and controlled by a government (mostly an enabled bureaucracy) that I abhor.
>>
>> If Trump wins (still a probability in my mind) I believe we will see armed insurrection and violence in the streets. This will be suppressed by inauguration day and we will have four years of weekly impeachment trials and daily Supreme Court cases while COVID and economic decline quietly decimates the population.
>>
>> davew
>>
>> End note: When Humphrey was defeated he took a position as professor at Macalester, where I was a student, until he could run for and win his Senate seat again. I organized a beautiful May Day, Maoist "Save the Children," protest blocking his office with barbed wire barricades. Lots of local media attention but the only "accolades" I received were from right wing crazies who hated Humphrey as a liberal, not as a enabler of continuation in Vietnam.
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