Re: towards a description of a goal-function relation

Posted by Eric Charles-2 on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/towards-a-description-of-a-goal-function-relation-tp7597842p7597959.html

I think Jon's post was definitely getting us somewhere. I had a bunch of knee jerk reactions I wanted to let calm down (including the one Nick brought up). 

I think at this time the most important thing I want to emphasize is that the distinction in question is one found via experimental investigation, not arm chair speculation. It isn't an arbitrary distinction Nick and I "find it meaningful" to make, it is a distinction revealed empirically. 

Water exposed to electrolysis makes gas. If you arrange your apparatus correctly, you can collect gas separately off each electrode. If you investigate those gasses you find that they behave differently in numerous ways. At that point, it is weird to say that chemists "find it meaningful to distinguish" the two gases. It isn't that saying that is, strictly speaking, incorrect, but it implies an arbitrariness about the whole thing. 

But this is actually a bigger distinction than that, logically speaking. 

When ethologists started asking "why is that animal behaving in that fashion?" they used a variety of different methods, and found that some methods produced different types of answers than other methods. Sometimes when that happens, you keep trying to do science and end up with a jumbled mess, but that's not what happened here. Time and time again set-of-methods A converged one answer, while set-of-methods B converged on a different one. And in decades of investigation by a field of Biology recognized well enough to get three people Nobel Prizes, never once did the two sets of methods settle upon the same answer. At that point, the reasonable conclusion is that set-of-methods A is measuring one thing, while set-of-methods B is measuring a different thing.  Looking at the methods and the findings across numerous, numerous studies: Set-of-methods A seems to point at the evolutionary function of the behavior in question, while set-of-methods B seems to point at the immediate goal of the organism. We could imagine living in a world where those were not different things; many early evolutionary theorists thought no such distinction would be found; and even some current evolutionary theorists talk as if no such distinction exists (exasperating those of us steeped in the relevant literature). But, it turns out, the distinction is there. 

So this is less like the distinction between hydrogen and oxygen, and more like the distinction between PH and surface tension. They are distinguished by fundamentally different methods of investigation. You could imagine a "possible world" in which PH and surface tension perfectly coincided, but that isn't the world we live in. Yes, chemistis "find it meaningful to distinguish" between PH and surface tension, but phrasing it that way suggests the issue is being approached oddly. 


-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist
American University - Adjunct Instructor


On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon,

Your RE: line shows me that you understand precisely the nature of the
problem, and that you are addressing it head on.  I am truly grateful that .
However, for some reason, I have been feeling very muddle-brained all week
(since I failed the Trump Test), and so fear that I may not be able to meet
this post at the level it deserves.  I am hoping that Eric and others may be
able to fill in for me. Perhaps I may be able to pull myself together and
catch up over the weekend.

At the risk of doing that thing that Glen says I do, let me pick out and
hammer on one point.  The function of a structure or behavior can NEVER be
the preservation of the species.  This is an example of the very principle
we are struggling with here.  To the extent that function is "that for which
nature selects", nature cannot select for the preservation of the species,
because, by the nature of species, the species is the repository of all the
effects of differential reproduction.  For selection to operate at the level
of the species, there would have to be one or more competing species, and
species, by and large, mostly, do not compete.  (That is why they are said
to occupy different "niches". ) They eat one another, but that is not
competition.  Even when they do compete, species do not have the coherence
and variety to serve as units of selection.  For these same reasons, group
selection of any kind is controversial in evolutionary thought, but most
everybody agrees that benefit to the species, as such, is not an
evolutionary cause.   What selection dictates, in the gull case, is not that
"gulls survive", but that egg shell removal has arisen because those gulls
that remove egg shells are prayed upon by foxes less than those that do not.
The survival of gulls is an "unintended consequence" of  selection upon
eggshell removal.

Thanks for pitching in and helping with our understanding of the
goal/function relation.

Nick


Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/



-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jo? Zingale
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 12:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] towards a description of a goal-function relation

another attempt to fix the broken threads...



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