============================================================Last colonoscopy I was thoroughly anesthetized but totally conscious. In recovery room, doctor explaining he had removed three minor polyps and I interrupted to say I thought I counted four. Shocked look on his part then told me the fourth was more like a skin tag. The anesthesia did prevent feeling, just not consciousness.Dave westOn Sat, Apr 27, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:No. But people who are under light anesthesia such as during a colonoscopy sometimes talk. I don't think they remember that.-----------------------------------Frank WimberlyMy memoir:My scientific publications:Phone (505) 670-9918On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:32 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:Oh, yes. We agree that I was unconscious. And if you had been there, you would have experienced my unconsciousness. But did I? I think a person who adopts your position has to say, “No.”
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2019 12:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow
Yes, you were unconscious. As you know, I had that experience a few days ago.
Frank
-----------------------------------Frank WimberlyMy memoir:My scientific publications:Phone (505) 670-9918
On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:13 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Frank,
The problem is that one has immediately to ask, what is the contrast class of experiencing consciousness? Experiencing non-consciousness? I think for your line of thinking, where consciousness is direct, that’s an oxymoron. For my line of thinking, when I woke up from my surgery and 24 hours had passed, I had a powerful experience of my non-consciousness.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2019 11:33 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow
Jon,
How about "experiences consciousness" in place of has consciousness.
Frsnk
-----------------------------------Frank WimberlyMy memoir:My scientific publications:Phone (505) 670-9918
On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:03 AM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,
I love that the title of this thread is 'A question for tomorrow'.
My position continues to be that the label `conscious` is meaningful,
though along with you, I am not sure what language to use around it.
For instance, can something have consciousness? That said, a
conservative scoping of the phenomena I would wish to describe
with consciousness language begins with granting consciousness
to more than 7 billion things on this planet alone. Presently, for those
that agree thus far, it appears that the only way to synthesize new things
with consciousness is to have sex (up to some crude equivalence).
This constraint seems an unreasonable limitation and so the problem
of synthesizing consciousness strikes me as reasonably near, ie.
`a question for tomorrow` and not some distant future.
You begin by asking about the Turing machine, an abstraction which
summarizes what we can say about processing information. Here,
I am going to extend Lee's comment and ask that we consider
particular implementations or better particular embodiments.
Hopefully said without too much hubris, given enough time and
memory, I can compute anything that a Turing machine can compute.
The games `Magic the Gathering` and `Mine Craft` are Turing
complete. I would suspect that under some characterization, the
Mississippi river is Turing complete. It would be a real challenge
for me state what abstractions like `Mine Craft` experience, but
sometimes I can speak to my own experience. Oscar Hammerstein
mused about what Old Man River knows.
Naively, it seems to me that some kind of information processing,
though not sufficient, is necessary for experience and for a foundations
for consciousness. Whether the information processor needs to be
Turing complete is not immediately obvious to me, perhaps a finite-
state machine will do. Still, I do not think that a complete description of
consciousness (or whatever it means to experience) can exist without
speaking to how it is that a thing comes to sense its world.
For instance, in the heyday of analogue synthesizers, musicians
would slog these machines from city to city, altitude to altitude,
desert to rain-forested coast and these machines would notoriously
respond in kind. Their finicky capacitors would experience the
change and changes in micro-farads would ensue. What does an
analogue synthesizer know?
Cheers,
Jonathan Zingale
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