It is to this point that I prefer to think in terms of
"neurodiverse" rather than "mentally ill". Your definitions here
respond more to my idea of "sociopathy". I don't think of
sociopaths as being mentally ill, just not good members of the
society they find themselves in. Most *L*ibertarians I know seem
to be on the verge of sociopathy as a matter of honor.
There has been a move afoot to recognize the selection value of neurodiversity in a group and to de-stigmatize or de-pathologize what was previously considered dis-ease or dys-function.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html
Nick writes:
“A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?”
Sure, in that case the “mentally ill individual” may have failed to connect their actions with the consequences. Or maybe they wanted lodging in a psychiatric facility on the family dime -- probably a bad call if your name was Rosemary Kennedy.
Marcus
From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Nick Thompson [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)
Marcus,
Forgive me if I am entering this party late, but what exactly means “mental illness”
I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it.
So, is a young person who hears voices, but who integrates those voices into a well-organized and effective life mentally ill? Is the homeless person who prefers to sleep on a subway grate than go into a shelter mentally ill? I had a colleague once who famously checked himself into a mental hospital making a vague claim to hearing voices and then, once on the ward, behaved absolutely as he would have otherwise. His only aberrant behavior was that he constantly took notes. Explaining that he was doing a study of the ward. When, after a few weeks, he got bored of it and tried to check himself out, he could not get out! He had to use his “fail-safe” (the chairman of his department, if I remember) to extract himself. Was he mentally ill?
Is trump mentally Ill? WAS he mentally ill before he became president? Or was he promoted to his level of mental illness. (CF, Peter Principle.) (In a political hierarchy a politician will rise to his level of insanity.) (cf, All the Kings Men, a fabulous novel, by the way). Not clear to me how a libertarian of any stripe can allow the concept of mental illness into a conversation. A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)
Robert writes:
“Estimates vary by source, but fraction of opioid deaths that are suicide is around 20-30%”
What I’d really like to know is how the fraction of opioid deaths occur with individuals that have no historical sign of mental illness at all, and would be described by their friends and colleagues as effective and engaged prior to their initial prescription. I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it. I strongly suspect a structural cause of all this is the idea that free will exists, combined with the inevitable evolution of the economy toward more automation. Millions of people, maybe hundreds of millions of people, have what amounts to a mistaken view of the world. Similar arguments apply to the ongoing outbursts of gun homicide (instead of suicide).
Marcus
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Well, right, Steve. Is it fair to say that, to some extent, you have "cultivated" dreaming?
I guess that's all I mean to say. I decided not to dream much.
By the way, may I unfairly take you to task about one thing you said. And I quote:
rational/linear modes of thinking/being,
There is nothing linear about rational thought. It is intensely hierarchical. It is its hieararchical nature, not it’s linearity, that leads it astray. Because one is working in one compartment, one misses things that would be obvious to people working in a less compartmentalized way. This reminds me of the mis use of the “learning curve” metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve.
Your friendly metaphor police at your service,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 12:11 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction
I have spent my life cultivating hypnopompic and hypnogogic states... this, which supports lucid dreaming, is my best way to access mystical states... mindfulness meditation, as I practice it, can lapse into these states if I allow it.
I was put off by the drug-culture of my peers in the 60's/70's for many reasons, one might have included a strong steeping in rational/linear modes of thinking/being, in spite of an early discovery of and indulgence in lucid dreaming.
I know many who identify as "evening" or "morning" people, but there is evidence that before the industrial revolution brought ubiquitous artificial light (city gas or kerosene lamps, then electric lights, now flickering TV/computer/phone screens), "segmented sleep" was the standard. It was common (almost ubiquitous?) for people to go to sleep soon after dark and then wake in the middle of the night for an hour or two of wakefulness, referred to as "Dorvielle" in French Speaking cultures or "wake-sleep", a somewhat hypnotic state (perhaps a slow slide from hypnopompia to hypnogagia and back again?).
Hot climates/cultures have an alternative "segmented sleep" wherein the heat of the day is reserved for a "siesta" with both evening and early morning reserved for taking care of business when it is cooler. I think of a siesta as being somewhat lighter and more lucid-dream conducive than "night sleep".
- Steve
On 1/2/19 10:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> There's also this thing one can do called `sleeping in', which tends
> to increase the probability of dream memory and/or lucid dreaming, at
> least for me. A built-in neuroplasticity mechanism complete with
> psychedelic phenomena and a safety mechanism of motor system
> deactivation. (
>
> On 1/2/19, 10:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us?
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Depression, bipolar disorder, and OCD are examples of the kind of mental illnesses I had in mind. They make life hard for those that have it. More downsides than upsides. As for sociopathy, for most people, just being too damned irritating will eventually create a cost for them too. Others become the president, at least for a while.
From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:47 PM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)
It is to this point that I prefer to think in terms of "neurodiverse" rather than "mentally ill". Your definitions here respond more to my idea of "sociopathy". I don't think of sociopaths as being mentally ill, just not good members of the society they find themselves in. Most *L*ibertarians I know seem to be on the verge of sociopathy as a matter of honor.
There has been a move afoot to recognize the selection value of neurodiversity in a group and to de-stigmatize or de-pathologize what was previously considered dis-ease or dys-function.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html
On 1/2/19 12:33 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Nick writes:
“A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?”
Sure, in that case the “mentally ill individual” may have failed to connect their actions with the consequences. Or maybe they wanted lodging in a psychiatric facility on the family dime -- probably a bad call if your name was Rosemary Kennedy.
Marcus
From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Nick Thompson [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)
Marcus,
Forgive me if I am entering this party late, but what exactly means “mental illness”
I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it.
So, is a young person who hears voices, but who integrates those voices into a well-organized and effective life mentally ill? Is the homeless person who prefers to sleep on a subway grate than go into a shelter mentally ill? I had a colleague once who famously checked himself into a mental hospital making a vague claim to hearing voices and then, once on the ward, behaved absolutely as he would have otherwise. His only aberrant behavior was that he constantly took notes. Explaining that he was doing a study of the ward. When, after a few weeks, he got bored of it and tried to check himself out, he could not get out! He had to use his “fail-safe” (the chairman of his department, if I remember) to extract himself. Was he mentally ill?
Is trump mentally Ill? WAS he mentally ill before he became president? Or was he promoted to his level of mental illness. (CF, Peter Principle.) (In a political hierarchy a politician will rise to his level of insanity.) (cf, All the Kings Men, a fabulous novel, by the way). Not clear to me how a libertarian of any stripe can allow the concept of mental illness into a conversation. A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)
Robert writes:
“Estimates vary by source, but fraction of opioid deaths that are suicide is around 20-30%”
What I’d really like to know is how the fraction of opioid deaths occur with individuals that have no historical sign of mental illness at all, and would be described by their friends and colleagues as effective and engaged prior to their initial prescription. I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it. I strongly suspect a structural cause of all this is the idea that free will exists, combined with the inevitable evolution of the economy toward more automation. Millions of people, maybe hundreds of millions of people, have what amounts to a mistaken view of the world. Similar arguments apply to the ongoing outbursts of gun homicide (instead of suicide).
Marcus
============================================================FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservMeets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's Collegeto unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comarchives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Why hast thou forsaken me?
Nick
Dave,
Thou deniest me in my moment of need!
Thou castest me to the wolves (eg Marcus).
Why hast thou forsaken me?
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 10:49 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction
Sorry Nick,
I am as hardcore Apollonian as is possible.
And if you organize your life around pleasure, even if moderate and consistent, it is you that are the Dionysian.
davew
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I realize that you (and perhaps others of our colleagues here) are
> Dionysians, whereas I, always, have been a stalwart Apollonian. The
> difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak
> experience of some sort. Some people organize their lives around
> their vacations and holidays. I hate holidays and vacations and
> organize my life around a steady diet of moderate pleasure. If you see what I mean.
> For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me.
> Is that a fair statement of a difference between us?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David
> West
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 7:05 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction
>
> MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the
> context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition
> can pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less
> discerning. Like too many drugs, long term effects / gender different
> effects / age different effects, are unknown because unstudied.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to
> > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories
> > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service.
> >
> > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's
> > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might
> > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a
> > contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like
> > living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder.
> >
> > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects,
> > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen"
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why
> > psychedelics are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic
> > effect is negligible?
> >
> > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming.
> >
> > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's
> > the big
> > >deal?"
> > >
> > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣"
> > ><[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY!
> > >
> > > https://psi-2020.org/
> > >
> > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at:
> > >
> > > https://maps.org/
> > >
> > --
> > glen
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at
> > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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============================================================FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservMeets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's Collegeto unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comarchives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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