Well, there's order, duration, frequency and a bunch of other stuff. There is work from the signal analysis world, where people are concerned with fractal structure in signals as a means of compression, and tho its been years since I've done neural nets, I imagine heartbeats or nervous system signaling would qualify.As you remember, I am especially concerned with continuous developmental/learning aspects, rather than specific adult organisms at a specific time in some stable environment. That said at my age I am of course biased.In my realm there is a figure-ground relationship at different scales between the developing traditions, the drummers, the individuals in the local group playing some arranged piece in the developing tradition, the drum itself (driven amplifier dynamics), drum design (much beyond membranophone descriptions and into wood types, metamaterials, turbulent flow, variance in the thickness and biology of skins and stretching processes, and such), the physics of the drum at the time it is played (humidity, temperature, what's happening in the drum next to it, how quickly it responds to that and the individual strike, the shape, mass, elasticity and internal qualities of the drumsticks, a large number of physiological qualities of the individual drummer and how each drummer works with focus, efficiency of motion and process, the acoustic environment of the venue, the many ways in which the audience or a particular kind of audience responds and in which you can evoke or respond to those qualities. So a complex drumbeat to me might not necessarily mean a sequence of beats, but rather a single beat in which all those qualities come together coherently (to me or anyone present now or in history) in a single hit. Even if the state space of the aforementioned qualities is not precisely knowable just now.I don't imagine this is particularly different for any musician or that it necessarily qualifies as complex as you might mean it. I'm certainly willing for that bar to be high. As some say, you are the instrument, the voyage makes the captain, etc.Tying back to "temporal fracticality", the notion of temporal direction can maybe get factored out (a la Tralfamidorians) , ie many birds through their song are trying to get laid (temporal pun intended). The eaglet is the father of the eagle, neh?. We make assumptions about how birds experience time. There seems to be a "temporal emergent locality" that defines the horizons of temporal self-similarity (there's a lot of "emergent locality" stuff in the physics literature - not sure it applies here).COn Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:22 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:Hi, Carl,
Good to hear your “voice” again?
I think you might be the person best positioned in my life to talk to me about temporal fractality. Are complex drumbeats fractal; and in what degree?
Am I over stretching the term?
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nic
kthompson/naturaldesigns/
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs
Many birds do tend to migrate, so wondering what "stable environment" means here.
Also thinking there is at play the developmental environment (extended time of egg-to-bird-of-the-now) of the bird, as well as the outer moment-of-the-song environment. How does one talk about developmental self-similarity? (we have L-systems for simulated plant growth and so on). As I recall from back in the day, self-similarity has limiting scale horizons, where particular dimensions of growth or development dominate to support the self-similarity.
C
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick -
This is one of your (wonderfully, and I mean that seriously) naive questions, and the naive answer is yes, they are surely coupled. I'm very interested in "soundscapes" so am often very aware of both the complex passive structure of most soundscapes (especially landscape vs urbanscape) and the active (birdsongs, garbage trucks, wind in the willows, sirens, ice-floes, domestic disturbances) elements.
You are likely to have a better idea than I do about whether bird's songs are likely to be *formulated* in a more or less complex manner when in a complex "landscape". I would guess yes to this. I would guess that the three most relevant scales are roughly the scale of the bird's body, it's food-source, and it's natural predators. How well can it hide, how well can it's food hide, and how well does it's predator hide. I"m sure this is an overly simplified model.
I think rather than fractal (literally), the more relevant concept is "with structure at many scales".
IN any case, welcome to Alberto! My own daughter happens to be a researcher in Flaviviruses, traditionally West Nile and Dingue, but now is drawn into the Zika thing... I look forward to hearing more from you Alberto!
- Steve
On 2/15/17 3:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Helloooo, List,
I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note?
The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed.
I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in.
Thanks,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nic
kthompson/naturaldesigns/
From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs
Dear Nick
I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon.
My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida).
Alberto Alaniz Baeza
Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación
Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados
Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile
Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas
Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile
Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA
<a href="tel:+56%209%209609%207443" target="_blank">+56996097443
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