Posted by
Nick Thompson on
Jan 07, 2014; 10:04pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/11-American-Nations-tp7584250p7584662.html
Could we profitably distinguish between:
(1) Not sharing the conclusions of the speaker.
(2) In sensitivity to relevant facts: reasoning with incorrect factual premises
(3) Reasoning illogically -- Clearly violating fundamental rules of logic. All swans are white; this bird is a crow; this bird is white.
(4) Acting imprudently: i.e., acting in ways that are contrary to one's own self interest.
Which are right wingers doing that we are not doing in this very argument? Can you describe an ARGUMENT in which a right winger makes one of these violations.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 1:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "rational"
OK. But what you're proposing here is that "rational" is a dependent measure. One can measure the rationality of the actor based on different things, e.g. their beliefs, empirical evidence, status quo, etc.
I don't really buy that at all. A person who commits either of the 2 errors you mention: 1) argument from authority or 2) judgment of the conclusion absent the reasoning process by which it was derived, doesn't have a rational basis at all. Perhaps they have good cause to reject
(any) reasoning or any empirical evidence. And that cause is some non-rational (genetic determinism?) mechanism that objectively benefits them (e.g. white men supporting social structures that benefit white men). But that doesn't make it _rational_. It's not a rational thing to behave irrationally. It might be a beneficial thing, but not a rational thing.
The people who are behaving absent rationality are not rationally irrational. They are simply irrational (which as Steve points out, may not be a bad thing).
But I suppose the extent to which behavior can be dependent on thought/reason, we might be able to say that those who think about what they will do before they do it are more rational than those who do not.
If all thought is just a rationalization, then none of us _ever_ behave rationally.
On 01/07/2014 11:06 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> There are two things reading Altemeyer would clear up.
>
> 1) He calls them Right Wing Authoritarians not because they're
> necessarily right wingers politically, but because they're invested in
> maintaining the status quo in their world. He believes the rank and
> file Stalinists were probably as authoritarian as the rank and file
> National Socialists. It's one of the many ways that Altemeyer
> undermines his own claims with carelessness.
>
> 2) When he says "their reasoning is sloppy", he means: they will
> accept fallacious logical arguments if they like the conclusion; they
> will reject sound logical arguments if they dislike the conclusion;
> they will invent empirical evidence if their arguments require it;
> and they will deny empirical evidence that contradicts their beliefs,
> even if it happens right in front of their noses.
>
> And when I say that this kind of behavior is irrational, I mean that
> it defies all standards of rationality. But that doesn't mean that it
> doesn't have a rational basis -- if your beliefs are more important
> than behaving rationally, then it is rational to be as irrational as
> is necessary to destroy the opposition. If your beliefs are more
> important than objective reality, then denying objective reality is a
> rational thing for you to do. But don't expect me to describe your
> irrationality as rationality, just because you have a reason to behave
> batshit crazy doesn't make batshit crazy any less crazy.
--
⇒⇐ glen
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