Posted by
glen ropella on
Nov 11, 2013; 9:48pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/11-American-Nations-tp7584250p7584280.html
On 11/11/2013 10:22 AM, Stephen Thompson wrote:
> I took Steve's comments to refer to the behaviors that help define the
> people in each of the 11 Nations - not necessarily the genetically
> determined
> characteristics.
>
> I took Steve's comments to mean if these groups could focus on the positive
> behavioral characteristics we could collectively interact more positively.
Yeah, you're reading what he _means_, I think. [grin] I'm reading what
he wrote. (That's a literalist's brinkmanship, right there.) He ties
pride, rather explicitly, I think, to entitlement and a metaphorical usury.
But even if we didn't tie pride to entitlement, it's still unclear that
pride is well correlated with, say "doing good". With that, let's jump
ahead to Arlo's response:
On 11/11/2013 11:40 AM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
> Pride can either mean a claim to competency ("look at this vase I
> made, I am proud of it") or general approval associated with
> identity.
But, either way, it is, by definition, associated with "good". Even in
the negative connotation, it is an accusation that the prideful are
mistaken in their own estimation of the good with which they identify.
That judgment, that the attribute is "something to be proud of" implies
that you have a choice in the matter. And it's the attribution of
choice that I object to. It seems silly for me to be proud that I'm
bald. It seems equally silly for me to be ashamed of my baldness. This
doesn't mean I'm conflating the two meanings of pride. It simply means
that pride (or shame) isn't meaningful at all in the context of
determined traits, wherein there is no choice. It's as nonsensical for
me to be proud that I am bald as it would be for me to identify with
baldness. Similarly, I'm not ashamed nor proud that I was born/reared
in Texas.
If there's no choice in the matter, then there can be no pride. But
going back to StephT's[*] comment:
On 11/11/2013 10:22 AM, Stephen Thompson wrote:
> I took Steve's comments to mean if these groups could focus on the positive
> behavioral characteristics we could collectively interact more positively.
Yes, I take what he said the same way. But I object to the assumption
that we can objectively (or even collectively subjectively) determine
what is "good" or "positive". I would easily agree with the concept of
a target phenomenon (Arlo's "ulterior goal"), be it judged good or ill
by anyone on anywhere in space or time, then design our incentive (and
perhaps motivation) so as to best approach that target. But it strikes
me as hubris to assume that the optimum is somewhere _other_ than where
we are right here and now. I admit it doesn't seem that way to me,
either. But I wouldn't go so far as to condemn the current situation
without sufficient evidence (beyond justificationism).
In other words, whence cometh this Utopian optimism that we _could_ have
been in a better position than we are if we were just a little more
_perfect_ than we already are?
It's that question that raises the concepts of hysteresis and stigmergy.
> I understand your frustration at not being accepted even though you
> have been a resident of a location for a very long time. I hear that
> New England is the same way .... as well as my own State of
> Minnesota. Tho to be (funny) fair, if you put on the Fargo Accent
> you will fit in "just swell, don' tcha know.." (Just mimic the
> speech patterns of Sarah Palin (I don't recommend her politics). Her
> family and others were settled from Northern Minnesota to a region of
> Alaska in the 1920s for employment. I understand the entire valley
> in Alaska all speak with the Fargo accent.
Well, don't mis-take my meaning. I got along famously with the Texans
around me while I was there. And, to this day, it's relatively easy for
me to change my stripes when I'm visiting (conscious or not). But what
has always surprised me is the inability to step outside oneself ... to
realize how silly one's seemingly normal behavior can be. I have the
same problem with Oregon (primed, no doubt, by Marcus' and another
friend of mine's jokes prior to my moving here). I find myself breaking
into laughter at socially awkward moments because someone's
(authentically) wearing a hipster hat while denigrating (ironic)
hipsters, or sporting a huge ear wafer bitching about those pesky
conformists. The child-like inability to step outside their selves is
what cracks me up.
[*] Too many Steves! My name was almost Steve. My parents adopted an
infant before me and named him Steve, though I don't know whether it was
Stephen or Steven. Unfortunately (or fortunately - I never know which),
the church insisted on taking him back and they had to reapply, at which
point they got me.
--
⇒⇐ glen
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